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animist posted:every time I come back to this thread I spend a few minutes reading dem tweets and then black out and wake up days later with no memory of the intervening time
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Apr 14, 2021 06:04
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Think the real disheartening thing about centrists (the electorate not politicians) is that they truly believe reaching across the aisle is the end all right thing to do in politics. Everything else including passing legislation to advance their goals is subservient to it. Like they cream their pants in movies when the good guy and bad guy team up to beat the bigger bad guy. And at this point if they haven't figured the game out yet I don't think they ever will. Still have a bunch of libs I know excited about when the Republicans are gonna team up with Democrats to arrest Trump. Completely deranged people.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:07
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, some poor people go on to be doctors. But, the majority of doctors come from middle class and wealthy families. Lmao this is stupid - I like how you shifted it from only helps the wealthy to only helps the wealthy and the middle class Hey guys instead of talking about how this policy will have a very real effect on people let’s just cede this argument to the people who want to paint it as relief for the rich and instead make complicated technocratic arguments that are hard to follow unless you’re already really digging in on the issue This is a great way to push policy and not at all a way to just let the assholes who oppose the policy stake out an ill defined but easy to comprehend emotional position of “it’s only going to help the rich!”
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Apr 14, 2021 06:07
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Sell it as predatory student loans blocking first generation minority college graduates from building generational wealth. It's kinda true and also full of the poison libs love.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:14
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Lmao this is stupid - I like how you shifted it from only helps the wealthy to only helps the wealthy and the middle class I said it disproportionately helps the wealthy, not only. It obviously does, but it is still a worthy policy goal. If you are trying to convince someone, then arguing the merits, economic benefits, and the personal freedom/restrictions that having large student causes is a much better case than trying to get bogged down arguing that people making high six figures aren't really rich. Things that disproportionately benefit a group still benefit others. One of the reasons people against debt relief like to make the argument about it disproportionately benefiting the wealthy is exactly because it gets the debate bogged down and allows you to sidestep the actual merits of the policy. Leon Trotsky 2012 has issued a correction as of 06:20 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 06:17
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Think the argument would be if college became free it would open it as a possibility to a ton of people that it currently is not now. Not just think of it as wiping the debt on people that already got a college degree. Wealth and debt would no longer be a barrier to getting a college degree in the first place.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:20
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Still you have the problem of there are not enough colleges now for everyone and the prestigious ones get flooded with applications but still better than it is now.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:21
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Raccooon posted:Still you have the problem of there are not enough colleges now for everyone and the prestigious ones get flooded with applications but still better than it is now. A lot of people still wouldn't go to college, even if it was free. There isn't a 100% enrollment in countries that do. It would still be somewhat of an issue, but not a deal-breaker. The U.S. also has a really bad stigma around trade skills and people think being a plumber is somehow less respectable than being an HR manager, but a plumbing is a solid skill that can pull in a very high income and doesn't require "book smarts" to master.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:A lot of people still wouldn't go to college, even if it was free. There isn't a 100% enrollment in countries that do. I mean in this theoretical world where college is free all trade schools could be made free too.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:26
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Raccooon posted:I mean in this theoretical world where college is free all trade schools could be made free too. Yeah, but I was just saying that some people avoid trade schools because of the stigma around trades and that is a "problem." There is very much a mindset in the U.S. of "You either have a traditional 4-year degree or you're poor." A lot of trade schools have rebranded as community colleges and offered some liberal arts curriculum as a way to sidestep the issue, but it doesn't solve the root cause of the stigma. And the underlying thing about debt relief is that it should ideally be done in conjunction with free college and other long-term solutions (but, debt relief by itself has merits and you can make a strong argument for it. It just won't be a long-term solution on its own).
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Apr 14, 2021 06:30
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Smythe posted:um how about instead of this you imprison them at the border to the tune of $270,000 per year? bing bong. very simple i love it
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Apr 14, 2021 06:31
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Raccooon posted:Think the real disheartening thing about centrists (the electorate not politicians) is that they truly believe reaching across the aisle is the end all right thing to do in politics. Everything else including passing legislation to advance their goals is subservient to it. my friend keeps saying that all of politics is Avengers now, and I think that mindset and theory explains the bizarre love for bipartisanship
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Apr 14, 2021 06:33
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Also in an ideally functioning society a person could go study philosophy or art history or whatever for a few years and even if they end up not good enough to make a career at it they got a shot to follow their passion and can settle into a trade or whatever and keep doing that interesting stuff on the side. Nothing wrong with being a plumber and nothing wrong with plumbers that hold degrees, especially if degrees are cheap and not a huge gamble on whether the debt will be worth it
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Apr 14, 2021 06:33
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Nichael posted:my friend keeps saying that all of politics is Avengers now, and I think that mindset and theory explains the bizarre love for bipartisanship They need to reboot Congress with the Ultimates universe.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:33
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Raccooon posted:Think the real disheartening thing about centrists (the electorate not politicians) is that they truly believe reaching across the aisle is the end all right thing to do in politics. Everything else including passing legislation to advance their goals is subservient to it. Idiots still believe there are good republicans out there. I had a college professor who did work in LGBT economics and advocacy and was extremely socially conscious in regards to idpol matters in general who nonetheless devoted an entire loving lecture to how conservatives were still good at heart, they were just operating off the theory that welfare made people too lazy to advance themselves. But hey, while we might disagree over *how* to help people, at least everyone agreed people should be helped! Some people want to see the vast powers of government used to assist the people, some want to grind them into fine dust to provide cheap labor for their corporate overlords, but surely theres a middle ground we can all agree on! This is the professor who taught an entire course on labor economics without mentioning Marx once
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Apr 14, 2021 06:33
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Nix Panicus posted:This is the professor who taught an entire course on labor economics without mentioning Marx once I guess I can see how you could do that, but what was the syllabus even filled with? Because most modern labor economists (both people on the farther leftist side and the liberal welfare side) form their arguments as compare/contrast arguments against the original labor economics theories (of which Marx was not the only one, but obviously the most major one). Do they just say "As one 19th century German economic theorist once said..." Leon Trotsky 2012 has issued a correction as of 06:43 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 06:39
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Nix Panicus posted:Idiots still believe there are good republicans out there. I had a college professor who did work in LGBT economics and advocacy and was extremely socially conscious in regards to idpol matters in general who nonetheless devoted an entire loving lecture to how conservatives were still good at heart, they were just operating off the theory that welfare made people too lazy to advance themselves. But hey, while we might disagree over *how* to help people, at least everyone agreed people should be helped! Some people want to see the vast powers of government used to assist the people, some want to grind them into fine dust to provide cheap labor for their corporate overlords, but surely theres a middle ground we can all agree on! Jesus christ lol. Like how does that person not understand that idpol and culture poo poo is important but without real world material help and fixes that poo poo can only go so far and never truly rectify the problems. At this point, Dems are truly just uh here is an avatar for you to live vicariously through but no we will not be helping said group as a whole because that would require spending money and taxing rich people.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:41
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Nix Panicus posted:Idiots still believe there are good republicans out there. I had a college professor who did work in LGBT economics and advocacy and was extremely socially conscious in regards to idpol matters in general who nonetheless devoted an entire loving lecture to how conservatives were still good at heart, they were just operating off the theory that welfare made people too lazy to advance themselves. But hey, while we might disagree over *how* to help people, at least everyone agreed people should be helped! Some people want to see the vast powers of government used to assist the people, some want to grind them into fine dust to provide cheap labor for their corporate overlords, but surely theres a middle ground we can all agree on! why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them?
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Apr 14, 2021 06:41
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Nichael posted:why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them? Sounds like a good question for a therapist
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Apr 14, 2021 06:42
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one really interesting point is that student loan forgiveness won't ever happen so it doesn't really matter if it's actually bad or not
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Apr 14, 2021 06:44
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MorrisBae posted:Sounds like a good question for a therapist their lives and capacity for emotional connection are so shallow that they project social bonds on monsters like john mccain Mao Zedong Thot posted:one really interesting point is that student loan forgiveness won't ever happen so it doesn't really matter if it's actually bad or not  this is true for practically everything on the left
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Apr 14, 2021 06:45
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Mao Zedong Thot posted:one really interesting point is that student loan forgiveness won't ever happen so it doesn't really matter if it's actually bad or not That's what they said about states taking on weed legalization and it only took 47 years. The obvious solution is to enroll yourself in a 47-year degree program to keep your loans permanently in deferment until you can finally cash it in.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's what they said about states taking on weed legalization and it only took 47 years. The obvious solution is to enroll yourself in a 47-year degree program to keep your loans permanently in deferment until you can finally cash it in. *the federal government reserves the right to imprison you at any time for getting loan forgiveness from your state
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Apr 14, 2021 06:50
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Nichael posted:47 years later Ah, well, it was a good run.
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Apr 14, 2021 06:58
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Nichael posted:why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them? liberalism is a mental illness, hth
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Apr 14, 2021 06:59
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if only this tweet was made by someone who didn't loving suck so much
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Apr 14, 2021 07:11
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Nix Panicus posted:Idiots still believe there are good republicans out there. I had a college professor who did work in LGBT economics and advocacy and was extremely socially conscious in regards to idpol matters in general who nonetheless devoted an entire loving lecture to how conservatives were still good at heart, they were just operating off the theory that welfare made people too lazy to advance themselves. But hey, while we might disagree over *how* to help people, at least everyone agreed people should be helped! Some people want to see the vast powers of government used to assist the people, some want to grind them into fine dust to provide cheap labor for their corporate overlords, but surely theres a middle ground we can all agree on! Found the answer why
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Apr 14, 2021 08:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I guess I can see how you could do that, but what was the syllabus even filled with? Because most modern labor economists (both people on the farther leftist side and the liberal welfare side) form their arguments as compare/contrast arguments against the original labor economics theories (of which Marx was not the only one, but obviously the most major one). He avoided any philosophical theory at all. Instead the class was focused on econometric analysis, specifically taking the basic Mincer equation (wages are a function of education and experience) and adding extra variables (e.g. race, gender, location). I think maybe two lectures were devoted to the history of labor, one about the rise and fall of unions exclusively focusing on the US, and another sweeping overview of wages and (CPI) inflation from WW2 to present. We spent several classes examining different explanations for wage trends (technology substitution, increasing returns for education, the collapse of unions, etc), and one class talking about the economic 'opportunity costs' of discrimination, but thats as close as we ever came to any theory. Basically the goal was to find ways to describe the labor market using math, rather than building up any kind of philosophical understanding That whole college was a machine for making liberals
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Apr 14, 2021 08:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Loan forgiveness will inherently disproportionately benefit the wealthy. Only about 33% of Americans even have a degree and only about 13% of them have existing loans. Google the percentage of black ppl that have to take out loans. Heres one link An average black graduate has $7,400 more in student debt than his or her white peer. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/how-americas-student-debt-crisis-impacts-black-students-2019-7%3famp Eliminating student debt would be the greatest leveler of racial economic inequality since the New Deal Shageletic has issued a correction as of 08:45 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 08:41
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Nichael posted:why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them? it is an expression of an underlying belief of liberalism/centralism: that everyone can be negotiated to a position acceptable to all involved. Remember that liberal ideology fundamentally sees the current state, the end of history we have found ourselves in, as the pinnacle of human achievement. Having reached this pinnacle, the system needs only carefully calibrated adjustments lest all of society overcorrect and slide into barbarism. All sides, all views are necessary to maintain the balance of the state so that forces leaning one direction are exactly opposed to forces leaning another direction. The liberals, who see themselves at the exact center, are the managers responsible for ensuring all of the forces stay balanced. Also very much at play are liberal conceptions of the ideology of themselves and of the "left" and "right." The liberal as technocrat philosopher king and perfect corporate manager is a profoundly ideological position, and one of its strengths is that it allows the liberal to deny the existence of their own artificial ideology and to see the left and right as ideological partisans who have not, yet anyway, accepted the the "natural" superiority of a technically perfect management system. Just because the liberal sees all ideology as something that must be surrendered to ascend to the end of history does not mean the liberals see the ideologies of left and right as entirely without value; the existence of a concept of society outside the centrist ideal is recognized by liberals as a sign that the end of history requires a bit more polish and work. The solutions to the conundrum of "why have the barbarians not accepted our might and superiority," are seen as lying within the left and right barbarians themselves and that with careful negotiation, these barbarians can be made passive and fully brought into the system. Liberals recognize that left and right have different goals for society and even though liberals see their superiority as evident, they still have a complex emotional relationship with left and right. According to liberal doctrine, leftists are children not yet mature enough to understand the ways of the world, but the hope, culture, and creativity are things necessary to the functioning of the state. How is the liberal to convince the leftist to "grow up" and yet manage to retain the elements that are inseparable with "not growing up?" A way to square this circle is once again, negotiation, to go to the leftists and ask them to join the real world. To the left's discredit, they willingly and readily leave behind whatever the liberal finds immature; the left always concedes, which codes the left as fundamentally being illegitimate, otherwise why would the left concede without their demands being met? The leftist can never purchase respect and consideration from the liberal for the price of the left's positions, because the very payment represented by the surrendering of the positions precludes respect and consideration and reinforces the view of "left as difficult children." Liberal appreciation for right views is a different form of relationship. The liberals still see the right as having the same nature of the leftists, unreconstructed outsiders who's submission is necessary for the success of the end of history, but liberals have very different opinions on the right's individual views. The right's conservatism, authoritarianism, and regression are much more in line with the very nature of liberal, managerial doctrine. Liberals will deny this though and instead claim that conservatism is the home of an adult, authentic, rational worldview that if humanity were perfect, would be the perfect ideology for humanity. Humanity is not perfect, however, leading to the necessity of the complex managerial arrangement. Significantly, the right's consistent refusal to concede, their willingness to fight what seem like pointless, hopeless battles leads the liberals to believe that this refusal is indicative of the natural superiority of those positions; why would a rational person fight a pointless war for an incomprehensible opinion unless the opinion were of some higher, unrecognized value? The right's very refusal to meet the liberal at the bargaining table, without the liberal making large concessions, convinces the liberal of the correctness of the refusal. When a liberal accepts the right's position, this proves in the liberal's mind that the right's position was fundamentally correct and the discrepancy between liberal and right must be resolved in favor of the right so that the end of history can be polished and maintained. This ties back into the liberals refusal to acknowledge that their own worldview is itself an ideology, and so incorporation of views outside liberal ideology never represent fundamental concessions that liberalism made; if you have no ideology then ideology can be freely bargained away. At the end of the day, leftists are children and the right hold the secrets of a perfect society; to finalize the end of history, the left must be disciplined and the right incorporated. That the right wants to murder the liberal is seen as an unresolved issue within the liberal state and not a deficiency or stain on the right.
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Apr 14, 2021 09:44
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quote:I somehow hate Haley worse than McMaster and I generally spend every waking moment hoping he contracts dick cancer. lol
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Apr 14, 2021 10:15
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Ozma is back bay bee
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Apr 14, 2021 10:34
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Nichael posted:why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them? because they share the same beliefs outside of the murdering libs part
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Apr 14, 2021 10:37
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bedpan posted:At the end of the day, leftists are children and the right hold the secrets of a perfect society; to finalize the end of history, the left must be disciplined and the right incorporated. That the right wants to murder the liberal is seen as an unresolved issue within the liberal state and not a deficiency or stain on the right. Is this from somewhere, because it's way too accurate. Though it's basically 'the left are spoiled children who need to be abused into submission; the right is Daddy who needs to be appeased'.
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Apr 14, 2021 10:41
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Student loan debt is already auto correcting as zoomers universally want nothing to do with college and just want to be influencers. Sucks for gen x and millenials that got swindled tho.
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Apr 14, 2021 10:41
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Asproigerosis posted:Student loan debt is already auto correcting as zoomers universally want nothing to do with college and just want to be influencers. Sucks for gen x and millenials that got swindled tho.
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Apr 14, 2021 10:44
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Nichael posted:why do liberals want to find common ground with people who literally want to murder them? Liberals don't label themselves as conservatives -- as they weren't raised conservative, or reject some part of it. But....they know so little about what rejecting conservatism means beyond just group identity. They don't have a framework for how the world works. So they end up assuming they've correctly run as far away as possible from the bad camp's ideas simply by joining the most visible camp nearby that says they're the opposing one. Their work is done, they have become the opposite of Trump. Unfortunately the direction they ran away in was only one choice of many, but they chose to run in the single direction that led them into the closest neighboring camp to the conservatives. They barely ran any distance at all. It's just the next camp over, running the same scam with a different color. By assuming that they're now already the leftmost thing possible, it makes others just look crazy who bothered to run even farther, more camps away than they did, or beyond all camps to none at all. The people liberals best relate to, rather, are those who still belong to camps. Most of all, those who are still right there with them, one campsite over, still sharing most of the same core ideas. Blue campers may have rejected a couple core ideas of their ex-camp, but many more of those red ideas (than they care to realize) have also been deeply internalized by them, often at a young age. They will never shed those, not without first running much farther away to somewhere even more oppositer of Trump. Running somewhere left of where they even acknowledge to exist, left of the bounds of their explored universe. Something they'll never do, since unless they start understanding the world's mechanisms better, they'll just never see a need. So liberals hang near conservatives. Even keep some conservative friends from the next campsite over. Not only that, but unknowingly continue to harbor many internalized red-camp ideas about how red-blooded conservatives should always get their chance to be boss and make others subservient. The cowardice and acquiescence comes from how they're really still believers in core pieces of fascist domination ideology. Happy Thread has issued a correction as of 11:27 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 11:02
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Waddling into the succ thread to sagely declare that the wealthy are the real victims of debt peonage
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Apr 14, 2021 11:14
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Mr Hootington posted:I want trump back. Biden is trump domestically (hitler) and Obama on foreign policy (Kenyan Hitler). Biden isn't even funny about it. I like my hitlers to say and do funny things as they commit crime after crime.
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Apr 14, 2021 12:29
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https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/status/1382288020141916162?s=20 supposedly a "CNN Anchor & Chief Nat Sec Correspondent" https://twitter.com/business/status/1382297848495112198?s=20 
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Apr 14, 2021 12:47
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