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My immediate assumption when I read that AAM letter was actually that the candidate was probably fine with the pay they mentioned a few times throughout the interview process and then when the offer came in, realized "poo poo , I totally forgot to negotiate" and named a super high number just to see what they could get. That would definitely throw me for a loop if I was making the offer, but it's still extremely dickish to yank the offer instead of just saying "no". Unless maybe they thought it showed that the candidate had poor judgment? I dunno though, no reason to give the hiring manager any credit here.
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Apr 9, 2021 18:43
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When they said the recruiter gave them the range several times and the candidate agreed to it is when I believed the hiring manager is a pissbaby with a fragile ego and/or doesn't know what the gently caress they are talking about. Of course the recruiter is going to say they agreed to it even if the response is "I believe we can make the numbers work" or whatever non committal phrase was probably said. Or even if they did make a firm agreement, I don't feel it's uncalled for to negotiate for more money after talking with the person that actually knows the position and explains the responsibilities better than a recruiter can, or after seeing the total comp package and trying to make up for shortcomings in it.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:01
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This whole discussion is interesting to me because I might be finding myself in the middle of a similar situation. I’m gonna include direct quotes from both of us because gently caress information disparity on the employees end, and I’m not interesting enough to give a gently caress if I get doxxed. (Don’t dox me please) - I was pinged by an old manager that a QA role was open at their current studio. I worked with him back in 2018/19 and we were both laid off (along with the rest of our entire division) at the end of our project. He thinks I’d be good for the role, helped me massage my resume, etc etc. - I applied and the response came from an in-house recruiter asking for interview availability and salary expectations. - I replied with: “Regarding salary expectations, I couldn’t say without a fuller understanding of the role and what it would entail, as well as having information on benefits and other comp. I’d rather spend this time making sure the role, your team, and myself are a good fit! If you could share the range that is budgeted for this position I can see if it’s within my expectations going forward.” (That last bit is because I live in California, the recruiter never asked for my current salary which is verboten but they CAN ask for “expectations”) - Recruiter: “As far as salary expectations, I would need that information before we move forward to the panel interview for this role. (Emphasis mine.) Full transparency, we are budgeting around $65K for this position. That number is for the staff QA role that will be in our LA office. We are still in discussion with having personnel in another area of the world later in the year. If we do decide to move forward, I can reach out to you at that time as we might have a bigger budget for that role. For reference, I have attached a quick guide to our benefits for you to review. Please let me know if the $65K works for you or if you would prefer to wait until we possibly move forward with that other QA role.“ - Me: “Regarding compensation, without knowing the exact numbers for what the medical plans cover, if there’s any employer matching on 401k, etc etc, I can say that your budget is in line with my expectations and I am sure we could come to an agreement that both parties are happy with!” Then they started setting up interviews. (Looks like three different >60minute panel interviews. For 65k.) I’m curious if I now find myself in the spot where if they offer me the job at 65k, and I say “well how about 75?” They’ll throw a tissy-fit. I’ll let y’all know how it goes! I interviewed with this company back in Dec 2019 and they went hard then on finding out salary expectations as well, except I was able to get the interview done without them OR me saying any numbers. Also interesting to note how the recruiter seems to be on the back foot already “if this isn’t enough money we can call you when we have a bigger paying role available”. I don’t trust any of that jive, obviously.
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Apr 10, 2021 04:31
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You have room to negotiate and it wouldn't be out of line at all. Anecdotally, I countered at a higher rate with a recruiter and didn't hear back until a different one from the same company contacted me about a higher paying role, so it is possible.
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Apr 10, 2021 09:15
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tranten posted:This whole discussion is interesting to me because I might be finding myself in the middle of a similar situation. I’m gonna include direct quotes from both of us because gently caress information disparity on the employees end, and I’m not interesting enough to give a gently caress if I get doxxed. (Don’t dox me please) Second, you totally can come back and say that you would need more money to take the job. Any excuse works, but you could say "Given what I've learned in the interview process about the responsibilities for the role, I think $75k is more in line with the market." Provided that $75k is in fact in line with the market. But, a reasonable person would understand that you can't bid cost without a thorough understanding of scope. i.e. You can't say what your salary requirements are without knowing exactly what success in the role looks like.
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Apr 12, 2021 13:02
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Hi, I just received an offer and I'm not sure how to proceed in negotiation. I have done 8 interviews with this company, and several calls with recruiters and the team throughout. Originally it was for a coordinator role and throughout the process was offered a more senior position that was open, and have received feedback multiple times from the heads of dept, VPs, SVPs that the whole team loves me. The interview process was months long, and in the interim I accepted another offer with company B, which I've made aware of to company A. The offer is for $80,000, and I was originally thinking of asking for 90,000 to accept an offer of 85,000, but given the leverage in that they're interest in me is strong, they know I would have to leave a new position (and they don't know how much I'm making), and the unlikelihood that they pull offer, should I be asking closer to $100,000? For context, the position is in marketing for a big bank in HCOL (not remote), and would be a step between coordinator and manager level. Good Parmesan fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Apr 13, 2021 |
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Apr 13, 2021 14:11
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I'm confused. Which company did you already accept an offer from, and which company offered you $80,000? If you already accepted an offer then reneging would burn bridges for sure. I would not renege unless the other offer is so overwhelmingly better it's worth burning a bridge for. I don't understand why you accepted an offer when you knew another company was highly interested.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:24
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If it takes months to hire someone it seems it’d be unlikely for them to pull the offer after giving you the feedback that everyone wants you onboard. If you didn’t name a number before and think 100k is reasonable, by all means ask for that (or 110k so you actually get 100k as an offer).
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Apr 13, 2021 14:26
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I accepted an offer from Company B. Company A is offering $80,000. I wouldn't have accepted the offer with B if I knew A was going to turn around and offer me a senior level position. The whole time I was interviewing for a coordinator position, and only after I accepted with B they offered me the senior role.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:28
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If I had to do 8 interviews I'd expect to be paid 100k plus for how much they had to vet you
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Apr 13, 2021 15:03
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You’ll burn some bridges at company B but cest la vie. Go with the job that is a better fit for you. e: depends what your backup is, and what market is etc but yeah ask for 100
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Apr 13, 2021 15:07
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Definitely ask for 100K. If nothing else, you have nothing to lose in that you're currently employed at the new job (assuming it doesn't suck) and if they rescind instead of countering/accepting, you dodged a bullet anyway. There's nothing but upside here. e: minus the bridge burn with company B if you did end up leaving but you owe them nothing
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Apr 13, 2021 15:11
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Asking for $100,000 has the side benefit that the extra digit feels bigger than it is, so if they end up paying you $95,000 it will feel like a win to them. And yeah if it's actually a higher level position than that's probably worth burning a bridge for. Curious, did Company A suddenly decide to offer you a higher level position after you informed them you'd accepted an offer from Company B?
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Apr 13, 2021 15:12
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It all was just unfortunate timing. I accepted the offer at company B in mid-March because the initial positions I was applying for at A and B were more or less equal, and offer B was expiring. I started job at company B first week of April, and on my second day received an email that I was now being considered for the more senior position at A. I then told them I had to accept another offer, but I'm interested in the senior position. After 3 more interviews and several phone calls, the written offer came in today.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:44
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At least in my neck of the woods, the first three months at any workplace is a "trial period" where you both can walk away if it's not a good fit with (in theory) no hard feelings (I still got pissed when I was fired in that period, but that's because the manager was an idiot). Just be careful to tell anyone you like that you got an unexpected dream job or whatever, they'll likely understand, and if you need to, tell management that the position didn't meet your expectations in practice (you can always find something they exaggerated in the description). As for job A, they're heavily invested in you, and they will try to negotiate. Definitely shoot high, especially since your alternative is job B, which seems comfy enough.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:33
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I'm transferring internally from a process engineering role in maintaining semiconductor test equipment to a test engineering role. For context, I've been at this company for 2.5 years, and this has been my first job out of college. I first heard from the hiring manager that they were planning on making me an offer when a new requisition opened up in the coming weeks, but we had a short chat yesterday where he revealed that one of the other candidates he was planning on hiring first had dropped out after some back-and-forth and some drama (a little confusing why he mentioned that but w/e). He told me that he was ready to extend a verbal offer, which caught me a bit off guard. The offer was just a straight lateral transfer, same pay/grade etc. No mention of any bonus structure or stock. I also didn't get any clarification of any org-specific bonus structure. I told him I would need a little time to think, so I would have a little time to counter propose something to him. Accepting a lateral move at this point would definitely amount to a pay cut. My current role has a flat org-specific factory bonus that currently maxes out to ~4% of my salary (we've gotten around 2% from the last two years I've been here). In addition, as a process engineer I get comp days for being on call, which currently amounts to 3.5 weeks over the whole year (so ~6.7%... it's true I have to actually be on call but we hardly get calls which has been excellent). Not to mention I currently get flexible holidays since I'm in a factory - I can simply work through company holidays and bank them... I've taken some sweet 3-week vacations as a result. I believe I would lose all these by moving to this other organization. On top of that, I am going to emphasize that I am coming in with a lot of highly relevant experience. One of the products that I would eventually work on would run on tools that I currently own. So even if I don't have the formal EE training most people in the group have, I'm coming in with 2.5 years experience of working on hardware that for the majority of them is purely theoretical. My thinking right now is to counter with a 15% increase in base salary. My thinking is I'm justified for 8-10% simply due to the factory/on-call bonus factor, and on top of that is my relevant experience. The requisition is actually for a grade higher than my current one, and initially I was thinking of asking for that bump, but I talked to one of my comp analyst friends yesterday and he said it would be easier to just focus on salary instead. His reasoning was that if I try to go off of grade level (which I was initially focusing on since I'm still at the same level as when I started) then I'd have a tougher time arguing I meet all the grade level expectations in the other org. He was thinking 20% is a tough ask since more for a company change entirely. Right now, I'm planning on reaching out to one of my former colleagues in that same org to try and scope out the bonus structure before I bring anything up to the hiring manager again... I of course don't want to bring up anything about comp time or a factory bonus if they have an equivalent as well. My understanding has been that they don't however. Also, I know internal transfers are allowed to negotiate here, I've heard about it firsthand from other coworkers. I figured when the manager made the first offer he was expecting me to negotiate - I've got no problem with him trying to minimize his costs or anything like that. I figured I would stick to email back-and-forth from here on out for negotiations since I'm very new to negotiation and I don't want to go on a call again and mom's spaghetti things up. Anyone got input on if this sounds like a sound counterproposal? Maybe anything else I should consider?
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Apr 13, 2021 17:14
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I'd wait until you get a formal written offer before you offer up any figures, but I think it'd be a good idea to get the bug in their ear that the lateral transfer would be a pay cut so you don't need to have that conversation later on. Don't rely on anything said in person or "verbal offers" because they are worth exactly squat - talk is cheap. Definitely collect as much comp info as you can prior to getting a written offer, and you'll be ready to go in guns-a-blazin'. If anyone tells you a lack of formal EE training is limiting, your practical experience/success should give you a wedge to say something along the lines of "I've been doing great so far, so let's talk about training," assuming that's something you're interested in
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Apr 13, 2021 17:23
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Get an actual offer letter with all those details. You could also just ask for those details (bonus, pto, etc.) since you are talking to the manager. You are just shooting widely in the dark right now.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:25
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Agreed that you can't do anything until you know the specifics. But never ever accept anything that even resembles a demotion, telling them to gently caress off and getting fired is better. It just does godawful things for your future prospects anywhere.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:46
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So in our initial chat he told me that if I accepted the lateral move at that point, then he would go to the recruiter and have them generate an offer letter for me. So to me, it sounded like he was hoping to keep any negotiations/talks between us, and then go to the recruiter with those terms and have them generate an offer letter. Should I basically indicate to him first that I would prefer to see an offer letter before continuing forward? I'm not sure how to phrase that I would like to negotiate once I've got that offer letter though. I'm thinking of asking my other coworker how that process went down as well... I far less sure about the specifics of org transfers and offer letters. Most of my friends who have been moving around did so internally to the org, just a simple manager change. I'm also unsure if my current manager will be notified if they generate an offer letter. Right now he doesn't even know I've applied. I am a little unsure about trying to leverage off my current role, I don't see it ending well because my current manager has kind of shown before he has very little influence in pay.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:25
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cerious posted:So in our initial chat he told me that if I accepted the lateral move at that point, then he would go to the recruiter and have them generate an offer letter for me. So to me, it sounded like he was hoping to keep any negotiations/talks between us, and then go to the recruiter with those terms and have them generate an offer letter. Should I basically indicate to him first that I would prefer to see an offer letter before continuing forward? I'm not sure how to phrase that I would like to negotiate once I've got that offer letter though. Don't commit to anything until you see it in writing. You can express verbal interest though, so long as you make sure they understand that it's contingent on the offer. Make sure that your boss doesn't start the lateral transfer without you having seen and accepted that offer.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:32
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Don't commit to anything until you see it in writing. You can express verbal interest though, so long as you make sure they understand that it's contingent on the offer. Make sure that your boss doesn't start the lateral transfer without you having seen and accepted that offer. Yup, that's the plan on my end. I figure I could start by asking him to give me an offer in writing or an offer letter as I weigh my options. Then once I have actual numbers (even if they're identical to my current ones) I can reply back to him with a counterproposal.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:42
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Good plan. Above all else what you want to avoid is giving any answer, however slight, that gives your manager (and thereby the company) room to say "you said X/Y/Z would be fine"
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Apr 13, 2021 18:48
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cerious posted:I'm also unsure if my current manager will be notified if they generate an offer letter. Right now he doesn't even know I've applied. I am a little unsure about trying to leverage off my current role, I don't see it ending well because my current manager has kind of shown before he has very little influence in pay. IMO for an internal move you have zero leverage. They know what you make and if they are big there will be guidelines to lateral pay changes (usually 0% to maybe a tiny bump). Bonus targets are rarely negotiable at your level. Comp time is because of the role and that may just go away with the new role (you no longer will be on call so I am not going to pay you more for less work). You can/should ask for more money but as far as the company is concerned your role is the same if it is a lateral so why would I pay you more?
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Apr 13, 2021 20:28
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spwrozek posted:but as far as the company is concerned your role is the same if it is a lateral so why would I pay you more? Well, historically the justification was that it was valuable to have employees with a depth of knowledge across a breadth of the company  For some reason, employers don't seem to value that anymore though  This was part of why I recently left my company of 13 years - they were adjusting the scales so that laterals went from being worth half or 5/8ths of a promotion to nothing; they started adjusting the bonus structure so it was harder/impossible to get a "full" bonus; they nerfed merit increases by half; they nerfed promotions by a bit . . . the list went on. All the while, they started on a push to "hire external talent" and even said something like "we are opening this location to attract more and better talent" which . . . as a current employee, there's really only one way to take that, eh? So, yeah, to the guy considering a lateral: for me, I promised myself that the moment my next career step was locked into a zero-pay-upgrade lateral, that was the day I found a new employer. A new employer found me before that happened, but I digress In my opinion, if this lateral doesn't do MAJOR things to position you for a huge advancement directly thereafter, you are most likely better off looking elsewhere if they won't play ball on compensation. At my last employer, a promotion was worth 8% salary bump (12% if you were on the bottom of the salary grade because that's about what the gaps between the bottoms of salary grades were) and a 2% bump on the bonus amount. Also worth noting, that employer I left was very engineering-heavy and it was very common for engineers to get a Promotion In Place two or even three times in the same desk because they (presumably) got that much better at the job after they'd done it for 2/4/6 years. YMMV, IANAL, this post is presented as/is with no warranty, etc. etc.
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Apr 13, 2021 20:46
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So part of the reason I'm considering the lateral is because moving out of the process engineering space into test engineer space seems to make a lot more sense when it comes to future career growth. I find test program development to be interesting and those are the problems I like working on the most in my current role. I don't want to work on tools for the rest of my career and I don't want to work at places that directly own those tools since those tend to be tied to manufacturing. My thinking is that getting more experience directly in test program development and moving into post Si validation is also something I can take to other companies that are getting into chip design, but don't necessarily have in-house manufacturing, so I would have better job mobility there too. I was kind of worried about the leverage part for an internal transfer but my concern with not getting anything is then getting passed on for a bump next year too due to the job change... kind of like just treading water. So that's why initially I was thinking about trying to make a case for a grade bump. After all it is within the requisition limits still. I just figured I would make a case for pay through experience and other benefits first since those are more concrete. Our promos here seem to be 7-10% from what I've heard from friends at my level, so I'm not expecting 15% by any stretch internally but I'm hoping to make it clear what I think about a straight lateral move.
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Apr 13, 2021 21:10
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First time wandering into this thread, per a recommendation from the nursing thread. I’m a registered nurse looking to transfer into another specialty, and currently have two appealing options. A) An internal transfer to another hospital within the same hospital network or B) a position at a new hospital. I already have an offer to transfer on the table, but they know my salary and in my interview with the manager I didn’t make any demands for a raise. She said "I think your salary will stay the same", and I didn't push back. She did, however, say HR would handle discussing compensation after I accept the offer. This leads to part one of my question. Was this a mistake? Should I have requested a raise at this point, or is it appropriate to wait until HR comes calling and make my case then? It felt difficult to raise the issue then and there. I'm interviewing at an inpatient Psych unit, and 100% my top concern at the time was getting a sense of how safe the place is, how competently managed they are, and what the culture is like. Salary is kind of a secondary concern to these things, so it didn't feel like it was what I wanted to spend time on in my interview. To be clear, I think I have SOME leverage, despite being an internal applicant. They're a bit short staffed currently, and offering a $15k sign on bonus (smells like they have high need), but this does not apply to internal applicants. I'm also trading in a 10 minute commute for a 30 minute commute. Finally, I have 2 years of applicable behavioral health experience, thought not as an RN. I think all this gives me a reasonable case for an increase in wage. Regarding option B): I interview tomorrow. This hospital is known to pay better then my hospital network. If they offer me a job, and I think they will, I'll also have leverage there. Ultimately I may just end up taking this job, but I'm wondering how to handle things with option A in the mean time, or if this was a mistake to learn from it in the future. Thanks for any input you all have. BFC is worth  a million times over.
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Apr 14, 2021 17:27
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Two things: 1. You are correct, you have no leverage with your current employer and will get no raise, or a couple percent at best. You should jump to a new employer if you get a good offer. Don't let your fear of change hold you back. 2. If you do accept an offer from the other company, don't accept a counteroffer from your current one. Go to the company that wants you at the higher pay rate, not the one that only grudgingly agreed to pay you when forced to.
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Apr 14, 2021 17:39
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hobbez posted:HR would handle discussing compensation after I accept the offer.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:13
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They've already made it clear there will be no increase.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:17
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hobbez posted:She did, however, say HR would handle discussing compensation after I accept the offer. This is of course total BS. You don’t buy a car and hear the price after you agree to buy it.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:45
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Thanks guys. Live and learn, I guess.Eric the Mauve posted:2. If you do accept an offer from the other company, don't accept a counteroffer from your current one. Go to the company that wants you at the higher pay rate, not the one that only grudgingly agreed to pay you when forced to. I do wonder about this advice though. Isn't this how a market works? I don't really begrudge the employer for paying me what they think they can get away with, just like I feel the opposite. If they come back with an equivalent offer, and they have other "intangibles" that appeal to me, I don't see why I shouldn't consider working there.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:49
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hobbez posted:Thanks guys. Live and learn, I guess.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:58
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Dik Hz posted:It's been beat to death in this thread, but the reason is that you've labelled yourself a flight right by doing so. Also, paying below market rate is sign of a lovely employer that manifests in other ways. There's a lot of "it depends" but most of the time this is the answer. People are usually biased to staying put too, so they tend to overweight+ underweight the - of a move. So, good to combat that bias by nudging towards "leave" as the default.
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Apr 14, 2021 19:03
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You may see this as how the market works but your employer will see this as “not a teamplayer”, “not loyal” and as Dik Hz said: “flight risk”.
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Apr 14, 2021 19:03
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LochNessMonster posted:You may see this as how the market works but your employer will see this as “not a teamplayer”, “not loyal” and as Dik Hz said: “flight risk”. More broadly, the fact that went you went out and suffered through the whole job hunting and interview process and landed an offer (a good one!) is proof that you are, on some very important level, unhappy with your current job. Something is nagging you to get up and out of your current gig, and you probably listen to it.
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Apr 14, 2021 19:15
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FMguru posted:More broadly, the fact that went you went out and suffered through the whole job hunting and interview process and landed an offer (a good one!) is proof that you are, on some very important level, unhappy with your current job. Something is nagging you to get up and out of your current gig, and you probably listen to it. Just to clarify, I have been accepted into a masters psychiatric nurse practitioner program and need to build additional experience in that specialty. It's not because I'm especially dissatisfied with my current work, I'm specializing and pursuing upward mobility in a specific subspecialty and therefore need to transition. Good to know about the "flight risk" issue. Let's say I get a killer offer from option B, only 2 days after having accepted the job at option A, and want to take it. Will I get, say, "black-listed' or have some sort of nasty-gram in my HR file with that network now? E: I kind of realized the guaranteed return of a 10% + raise would be worth risking any theoretical black marks with an HR department I don’t even work for and may not ever work for again. So that answers that hobbez fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 19:35
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LochNessMonster posted:This is of course total BS. You don’t buy a car and hear the price after you agree to buy it. Yet that's exactly how healthcare pricing works in the US so perhaps it should be no surprise if that's also their approach to employment.
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Apr 14, 2021 20:23
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For the job I've done 8 interviews, I told the head of HR that my number was $95,000 to their offer of $80,000. HR spoke to the hiring manager and said that the number they crafted was what they thought was fair and equitable considering I had originally interviewed for another position and they were now considering me for the more senior position. He said originally they were thinking of offering me a smaller number. They said the hiring manager was taken aback by my counter-offer and my delta. I said I was under the assumption that there was room for negotiation and I was qualified for the position and would merit the top of the range. HR said he will go back to the hiring manager. EDIT: They came back with 85,000 final offer and I'll likely accept. Thanks all. Good Parmesan fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 21:37
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Good Parmesan posted:For the job I've done 8 interviews, I told the head of HR that my number was $95,000 to their offer of $80,000. Sounds like you're doing the right things. I am taken aback by the hiring manager being taken aback that you are negotiating.
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Apr 14, 2021 21:41
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