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The forbidden words UNDO, RESTORE and RESTART.
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Apr 14, 2021 15:22
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| # ? May 21, 2024 03:32 |
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:The forbidden words UNDO, RESTORE and RESTART.
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Apr 14, 2021 15:37
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nimby posted:It's equally likely that Jagganoth is being played by Metatron, up to being tricked into believing Zoss had complete mastery of the wheel, including a reset button. Jagg is absolutely being played by Metatron right now; this does not in any way exclude that Metatron told Jagg the truth, all of it and the whole of it to the best of his (very vast) knowledge. What need is a lie, if you can find a sucker that would react to the truth the way you want him or her to? And the various key bearers were a very wide set of potential suckers initially. What I'm wondering is how strictly the loops resemble each other. Is this the 6 billionth iteration where Zoss turned back (or forward) the wheel to its starting point, the 6 billionth time Salami learnt Ki Rata and grabbed a second sun as backup, the 6 billionth time where auntie Maya had her blood feud with Incubus? Is there a new conquering king every time and Zoss happened to have more of a conscience and/or self-awareness than the others? Something in between?
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Apr 14, 2021 16:09
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is a reason to think it's a physicalist Groundhog Day notion of time travel and not some karmic cycle of universal death and rebirth that must be transcended to bring collective existence to a higher plane of, uh, existence? akin to the wheel of existence in Buddhism
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Apr 14, 2021 16:35
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Still feeling very certain it isn't a literal time loop, just a metaphorical violence cycles in heaven and creation. The plot with universal war and the demiurges doesn't really make sense if Zoss was literally resetting creation to whatever it was before every time. With time travel like that you also run into a bunch of metaphorical themes that don't jive with what the comics been putting out this whole time. Also I suspect that "time" in throne works differently than "time" on the created universes.
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Apr 14, 2021 16:38
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M_Gargantua posted:Still feeling very certain it isn't a literal time loop, just a metaphorical violence cycles in heaven and creation. The plot with universal war and the demiurges doesn't really make sense if Zoss was literally resetting creation to whatever it was before every time. With time travel like that you also run into a bunch of metaphorical themes that don't jive with what the comics been putting out this whole time. Zoss stands astride the Wheel and outside it, while Janis caught but a brief glimpse and was permanently warped into a pitiful thing that longs to die. It's probably less "I push the reset button and start over" and "I'm going to metaphorically reach over to a different point in space and time in the Wheel to nudge an earlier event in the timeline THIS way this time and see how that plays out".
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Apr 14, 2021 16:41
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Doctor Who time travel rules with even less consistency
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Apr 14, 2021 16:45
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Gotta be honest, I feel like I've read a lot of fiction using time loops, so another webcomic using time loops isn't as interesting to me as a more "history repeats itself/mythic cycles" interpretation of what's going on.
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Apr 14, 2021 16:57
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Oh neat so KSBD is basically Undertale!
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Apr 14, 2021 17:01
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Joe Slowboat posted:Jagganoth actually just implied Zoss can't reset the world again, because Zoss no longer has all the Names of God. Allison does. Naah, 'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad' is some severely overdone JRPG poo poo. It's better to root your main characters' motivations in the specific and tangible - otherwise, you lose your story's humanity and have everyone exchanging soggy platitudes about basic, abstract concepts.
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Apr 14, 2021 17:04
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At the very least, Zoss existing outside of the cycle of time explains why being dead didn't seem to bother him very much. It sounds like Zoss and Jagg haven't really compared notes, and Zoss is trying to break the cycle.
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Apr 14, 2021 17:27
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Darth Walrus posted:Naah, 'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad' is some severely overdone JRPG poo poo. It's better to root your main characters' motivations in the specific and tangible - otherwise, you lose your story's humanity and have everyone exchanging soggy platitudes about basic, abstract concepts. Not entropy, transience. The inescapable and irrevocable nature of violence. You know, the qualities of reality that mean the Very Wise Frog is right, and being able to kill someone will always end the argument, and violence will never be a solved problem. The things Jagganoth specifically has trauma about, because his entire family was murdered and his life destroyed, and no matter how much power he has he can never undo that. You know, the personal motivations that have been explicitly in play for him, and the core thematic question of the comic, which is 'change is inevitable, so how do you deal with the negative side of that as well as the positive?' Jagganoth loudly rejects the inherent violence of time, just as Incubus fully accepts it, and neither of them are the hero. Or it could just be a time loop I guess! I guess a thing that by definition none of the characters can directly experience except Zoss and Metatron is more concrete and personal than 'violence is my life and my world and I want that to not be the case, but can't see a way out of it without breaking the universe'
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Apr 14, 2021 17:32
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Everyone is stuck in a cycle of violence regardless of Zoss doing looper poo poo. The only one in command of that power is an antagonist and another loop happening is a worst case scenario because it instantly and permanently removes our heroine from the story along with all the relationships she formed along the way.
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Apr 14, 2021 17:49
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M_Gargantua posted:Also I suspect that "time" in throne works differently than "time" on the created universes. It seemed pretty 1:1 when Allison made it back to Earth back in chapter 1. Though I suppose that is only one of many.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:15
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Oh, a new comic happened! I thought there might be an unveil coming about what went down back then. The comic has always had a whole bit with unreliable narrators in the art, but it's very explicitly gone out of its way to highlight that with the encounter between Zoss and Metatron, with depictions varying so much.   Huh. If Metatron did give Zoss the power deliberately, I wonder if maybe he did it before Zoss killed the other primes. Maybe that was part of the deal. Remove the brothers from the equation. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 19:09
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Ah, I see we've hit the part no one's going to be happy about.
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Apr 14, 2021 19:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Naah, 'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad' is some severely overdone JRPG poo poo. good thing I haven't overexposed myself to a cool concept by playing too many awful video games for nerds, for a second I was afraid I'd stop having fun reading this
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Apr 14, 2021 19:43
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Darth Walrus posted:Naah, 'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad' is some severely overdone JRPG poo poo. Wasn't this the plot of the 12 Monkeys remake?
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Apr 14, 2021 19:54
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nimby posted:It's equally likely that Jagganoth is being played by Metatron, up to being tricked into believing Zoss had complete mastery of the wheel, including a reset button. I don't think Jadis misidentified Zaid - I think it was her servant interpreting her that messed up. The only thing Jadis herself said was "The Success..." In response to 'who is that boy', and then the translator took over. The whole rest of the time she's stuck on an s sound, which I've always taken as her trying to say something like "The Successors Boyfriend" or whatever. Meanwhile the translator is going nuts about how Zaid is the conquering king or whatever. But everything he's saying is Jadis describing Allison.
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Apr 14, 2021 20:39
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Bleck posted:good thing I haven't overexposed myself to a cool concept by playing too many awful video games for nerds, for a second I was afraid I'd stop having fun reading this It’s not a cool concept it’s just navel gazing nonsense to avoid dealing with relevant problems.
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Apr 14, 2021 20:42
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Xand_Man posted:At the very least, Zoss existing outside of the cycle of time explains why being dead didn't seem to bother him very much. I get the feeling that both of them see the timeline/s as a prison, and Jaggs is sick of waiting around for Zoss to get it right. Better to destroy everything than letting him keep trying futilely.
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Apr 14, 2021 20:50
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Saturnine Aberrance posted:I don't think Jadis misidentified Zaid - I think it was her servant interpreting her that messed up. The only thing Jadis herself said was "The Success..." In response to 'who is that boy', and then the translator took over. The whole rest of the time she's stuck on an s sound, which I've always taken as her trying to say something like "The Successors Boyfriend" or whatever. Meanwhile the translator is going nuts about how Zaid is the conquering king or whatever. But everything he's saying is Jadis describing Allison. I'm still of the mindset that she can see the unmodified timeline but doesn't have this 4D mind and existence that Zoss acquired. I think Zoss was always intended to be the successor but it doesn't work out the way Zoss wanted.
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Apr 14, 2021 21:49
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IMHO she's a more interesting character if she knows the full truth but just came to a different conclusion than Zoss.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:17
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Jadis lied to them because she knew she was going to lie and had no choice - seeing the fabric of the web of fate made her its absolute slave.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:58
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Guildenstern Mother posted:I get the feeling that both of them see the timeline/s as a prison, and Jaggs is sick of waiting around for Zoss to get it right. Better to destroy everything than letting him keep trying futilely. Zoss has said directly he considers it a prison  (Hello, looming Metatron) Huh, if Zoss didn't do that to Metatron why is he's in that state. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 15, 2021 |
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Apr 15, 2021 00:16
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MikeJF posted:Huh, if Zoss didn't do that to Metatron why is he's in that state. Here's a complete shot in the dark: if an angel lives too long without either dying + regenerating (or otherwise transforming like White Chain) their form gets so massive and dense that they crack.
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Apr 15, 2021 00:55
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Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers.
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Apr 15, 2021 00:59
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Captain Oblivious posted:It’s not a cool concept it’s just navel gazing nonsense to avoid dealing with relevant problems. Entropy sadness, sure, but 'refusing to accept that the world, by its nature, cannot be made to guarantee painless lives without loss, so instead deciding to burn it down' is a perfectly reasonable position for Jagganoth to take. It's of a piece with K6BD generally having a quasi-Buddhist philosophy of 'violence and suffering are inevitable results of living in the world, but they can exist to greater or lesser degrees hopefully.'
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Apr 15, 2021 01:31
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MikeJF posted:Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers. I literally wrote "Maybe he told a whopper of a lie" here before scrolling back to check following posts and seeing you beat me to it. But yeah, it's worth remember that it is absolutely possible for Angels to this sort of damage to themselves merely by acting... unangelic. It may be that giving Zoss the words IS what caused the damage, or the things he told Zoss, or any number of things that are literally just him operating outside standard procedure.
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Apr 15, 2021 06:35
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No that's just what Metatron looks like, no refund.
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Apr 15, 2021 06:48
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Brought To You By posted:I'm still of the mindset that she can see the unmodified timeline but doesn't have this 4D mind and existence that Zoss acquired. I think Zoss was always intended to be the successor but it doesn't work out the way Zoss wanted. The way I see it, she got a glimpse of a page and is working off cliffs notes. Zoss has the whole book and can thumb through it at his discretion.
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Apr 15, 2021 08:05
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Xand_Man posted:At the very least, Zoss existing outside of the cycle of time explains why being dead didn't seem to bother him very much. Not much reason to go around like that if you have access to literal time travel and save scum your body or whatever. Pretty sure Jagg doesn't in fact have the full picture here.
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Apr 15, 2021 08:55
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What's the purpose of picking up the arena? Is it to let dave go hogwild? Is she taking them somewhere? Is it space? Are they finally going to blow up those pretentious twin suns?
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Apr 15, 2021 09:01
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Guildenstern Mother posted:What's the purpose of picking up the arena? Is it to let dave go hogwild? Is she taking them somewhere? Is it space? Are they finally going to blow up those pretentious twin suns? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w15H6Giqoo Probably so when the demiurges continue duking it out now with She-tron in the mix they kill slightly less than Everyone On Rayuba.
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Apr 15, 2021 09:43
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It's been mentioned that Dave's been holding back because he doesnt want to hurt his people. Moving the battlefield out into space means everyone can go all out without worrying about civilian casualties. Given that demiurges have enough power to both destroy and re-create suns apparently, probably not a bad idea
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Apr 15, 2021 13:13
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My guess about what happens now is that Allison flings them into space, goes 'yo fight him to a standstill for a few days will you?' at the Demiurges, and then fucks off to give Metatron a visit, with White Chain realising that the resistance on the planet needs someone to organise it and splitting off for a while to handle that.
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Apr 15, 2021 13:53
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I think she's either dumping them in the void or taking them all to go see Metatron to see what he has to say.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:02
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Darth Walrus posted:Naah, 'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad' is some severely overdone JRPG poo poo. It's better to root your main characters' motivations in the specific and tangible - otherwise, you lose your story's humanity and have everyone exchanging soggy platitudes about basic, abstract concepts. I feel like Jagg's got a perfectly understandable reason to be omnicidal. Every time the wheel turns - be it a metaphorical cycle or literally a time loop - some folks end up like Yaun ten Jantris. Utterly and irrevocably traumatized by the cruelty of those who wield power. He's trying to do a murder/suicide on a massive scale, but it still stems from his reaction to his trauma. YMMV on whether that's well told (and whether it's foregrounded enough to work for the comic qua comic given that we have to infer this from the text updates) but it is different than "'destroy time because entropy exists and it makes me sad."
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Apr 15, 2021 14:08
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MikeJF posted:Alternative idea: we know angels crack if they lie, and Metatron told some whoppers. I really like this explanation, but the bodies of angels were built by people originally, right? Zoss was the first to get to Throne, and he whupped all of the Primes and Metatron before anyone else showed up. Of course, that raises the question of how the Primes had bodies in the first place, so maybe the newer angel bodies are based off the old designs. Gonna wreck property values on Throne if all the sleeping prime angels wake up and go back to their previous bodies.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:18
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Also for the literal time loop every time the wheel stops and time rewinds, that IS omnicide. So if he succeeds he's not even doing anything different than what from what he understands was gonna happen anyway except preventing it from happening again by dictating the terms, which... it's understandable from that perspective.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:18
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