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In the books, Tywin had been a whoremongering hypocrite his whole life and the secret tunnel to the Hand's chambers was implied to have been dug for his own purposes as well
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Apr 19, 2021 03:02
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lezard_valeth posted:The scenario plays a lot differently in the books. It's a little bit different to this: Varys is leading him through the secret passages to help him escape when Tyrion himself realizes they're close to the Tower of the Hand (likely because it was truly was the only way out, but at the same time Varys almost certainly knew and had probably planned what was about to happen) and tells him to wait while he goes and pays his father a visit. Whether he actually intended to kill him at this point is unknown. It's only after he finds Shae in Tywin's bed and kills her that he grabs the crossbow and goes full FYAD spoiler.
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Apr 19, 2021 04:01
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I always felt one of the more interesting questions about that sequence was whether Tywin was being truthful when he said he intended to have Tyrion take the black. He has no love for Tyrion but it would be a hit to the family name to have his son executed as a traitor.
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Apr 19, 2021 04:07
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I don't remember in the books, but in the show he fully intended to have Tyrion take the black in exchange for Jaime leaving the Kingsguard and taking his place as Casterly Rock's heir.
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Apr 19, 2021 04:36
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I think the only thing keeping him from killing Tyrion is the Jaime side deal. If he kills Tyrion, Jaime walks.
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Apr 19, 2021 04:43
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TOOT BOOT posted:I always felt one of the more interesting questions about that sequence was whether Tywin was being truthful when he said he intended to have Tyrion take the black. He has no love for Tyrion but it would be a hit to the family name to have his son executed as a traitor. It makes sense since the intention was also to have Ned take the black. It's this great release valve that prevents blood fueds. But welp failgrandson Joffrey got in the way of that.
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Apr 19, 2021 08:48
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moosecow333 posted:Jorah getting stabbed clean in the chest through his metal chest plate by a dagger that’s been exposed to the elements and without maintenance for up to 60 years or more. Maybe its petty, but people just getting casually poked through plate armor is one of my biggest pet peeves of the show. Why even wear armor?? emanresu tnuocca posted:Guys you can't compare a show like Game of Thrones to a show like Game of Thrones, completely different ball park. Lmao
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Apr 19, 2021 08:54
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Zaphod42 posted:Maybe its petty, but people just getting casually poked through plate armor is one of my biggest pet peeves of the show. The worst thing is the show makes a big deal of the efficacy of armour early on, such as when the Dothraki make fun of Jorah and then he brutally owns them (which also suggests these nomadic horseman comprising mostly horse archers and light cavalry don't regularly fight against heavily armoured opposition and/or don't understand where their strengths lie against such an opponent, which should spell bad news bears and some harsh lessons once they get to Westeros). Or when the Hound destroys Arya's water dancing poo poo and makes fun of her for believing Syrio had anything approaching a chance against knights in armour.
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Apr 19, 2021 09:00
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I'm just repeating myself but I haaaate that they make a big deal out of Areo Hotah's "long axe" and then the Sand Snakes just poke him and he dies instantly, no resistance. Worst. Bodyguard. Ever. I can even accept that maybe they don't wear much armor in Dorne because its so hot, but he still just stands there and does absolutely nothing.
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Apr 19, 2021 09:06
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Mameluke posted:In the books, Tywin had been a whoremongering hypocrite his whole life and the secret tunnel to the Hand's chambers was implied to have been dug for his own purposes as well Lindsey Ellis did a thing for her GoT videos where she explained how Tyrion and Shae ending up playing out that scene as it was in the books made no sense with how their characters had progressed and with the changes made to them in the show's narrative, and Tywin also fits that description. Him being a huge hypocrite who loves prostitutes and being exposed as such in the books is perfect characterization, but in the show its loving nonsense for the character we get to know, as much of a dirtbag as he is, and even if it wasn't him buying Shae specifically and her agreeing to go along with it are both utter nonsense.
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Apr 19, 2021 09:31
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Show-Shae, the way she was characterized, should never have wound up where and how she did, and D&D hard swerving and forcing her onto Book-Shae's endgame path was one of the first signs that these guys really didn't know what they were doing or trusted themselves to let things progress naturally away from GRRM's outline. Because the Shae on the show probably would have stayed in King's Landing despite Tyrion's attempts to get rid of her for the sake of Sansa, and then went "gently caress this nonsense" and hopped on the boat to the Vale with Sansa to keep her safe from Littlefinger as soon as poo poo started going down.
nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Apr 19, 2021 |
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Apr 19, 2021 10:17
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I don’t think we needed to know that Tywin was a whoremongering fella for us to believe that he’d bed Shae just to get one over his dwarf son. He literally got Tyrion’s earlier whore wife gangraped. There’s a clear precedent for Tywin teaching Tyrion a lesson this way.
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Apr 19, 2021 11:59
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It seemed beneath show-Tywin to do something like that
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Apr 19, 2021 14:06
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Collapsing Farts posted:It seemed beneath show-Tywin to do something like that Charles Dance is such an intense actor. He was great as Havelock Vetinari.
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Apr 19, 2021 15:40
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I think there was an option for Shae to betray Tyrion when it hits an “oh poo poo they’ll kill me otherwise” moment for her, but it would have worked a lot better if he killed her outright now in self defense as a response.
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Apr 19, 2021 15:43
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Vegetable posted:I don’t think we needed to know that Tywin was a whoremongering fella for us to believe that he’d bed Shae just to get one over his dwarf son. He literally got Tyrion’s earlier whore wife gangraped. There’s a clear precedent for Tywin teaching Tyrion a lesson this way. Tyrion was going to be executed and he was therefore going to possibly lose the primary thing he wanted, the deal to get Jaime to return to his status as heir to Casterly Rock. It seems inconceivably stupid that Tywin would undermine himself with the son he cared about/was desperate to manipulate for the sake of the family bloodline just by pissing on Tyrion as well as killing him. Because he had to let Tyrion know in some way, or else where was the "lesson?" And how does he let him know without risking Jaime finding out and potentially alienating him forever, thereby ensuring the extinction of his line? And again, that's not going along with the fact that there's no justification for Shae to do it. To try and buy a royal pardon or something? We can speculate that was her reason but its certainly not in the show, and if Tywin were obliged to do that its not like he'd need to be persuaded anyway. The whole thing is just silly nonsense, forcing square pegs into round holes.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:19
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The whole Tysha thing is super  with her ending up whoring in Bravos, making each John do a marriage ceremony before they do the deed.
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Apr 19, 2021 16:33
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Collateral posted:The whole Tysha thing is super Which reminds me, I always found it weird that they omitted the bit where Tywin makes Tyrion have sex with her in front of the guards once they were done, and pay her a gold piece because Lannisters are worth ten times ordinary men or whatever it was. I presume it was to make Tywin seem less evil (as if the gang rape isn't good enough, although I think the TV version also omitted the bit in the book where she actually wasn't a prostitute after all so I guess you can interpret it as Tywin hiring her for a gross but still within her job's wheelhouse act so "all," he's doing is horribly traumatizing and publicly shaming his son for a "lesson," rather than ordering a gang-rape)
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Apr 19, 2021 17:12
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Sanguinia posted:Which reminds me, I always found it weird that they omitted the bit where Tywin makes Tyrion have sex with her in front of the guards once they were done, and pay her a gold piece because Lannisters are worth ten times ordinary men or whatever it was. I presume it was to make Tywin seem less evil (as if the gang rape isn't good enough, although I think the TV version also omitted the bit in the book where she actually wasn't a prostitute after all so I guess you can interpret it as Tywin hiring her for a gross but still within her job's wheelhouse act so "all," he's doing is horribly traumatizing and publicly shaming his son for a "lesson," rather than ordering a gang-rape) Honestly all the rape and allusions to rape is the stuff that made me super uncomfortable with parts of the books/show. I get that it's edgy or gives a historical feel or whatever but it makes me queasy to be frank and I personally don't think it adds anything to the world or narrative, but I'm asexual so maybe I'm not 'getting' it.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:22
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An insane mind posted:Honestly all the rape and allusions to rape is the stuff that made me super uncomfortable with parts of the books/show. I get that it's edgy or gives a historical feel or whatever but it makes me queasy to be frank and I personally don't think it adds anything to the world or narrative, but I'm asexual so maybe I'm not 'getting' it. In terms of the narrative, a big part of it is to show in the most visceral possible terms how powerless women are in this society, how commodified and objectified they are, their total lack of protections outside the chivalric code and the religious and legal doctrines of a feudal society which are a big fat lie because most of the sexual crimes are being done by Lords and Knights who are supposed to embody those things. That in turn connects to the deeper political themes of the narrative, which involve friction between Heinlein's Premise and the idea of Social Contracts, how people become otherized and marginalized and how in turn they find ways to fight back both within the systems that marginalize them and through revolutionary action against those systems. That's not to say that its not intentionally edgy and for the purposes of that gritty "realistic," feeling that the franchise is so known for, but it does have a purpose. It brings to mine that Simpson's episode about Bart's Boy Band being Navy Recruitment Propaganda. Game of Throne's messages about women are a three pronged attack: Subliminal (the almost unacknowledged oppressing and silencing of women in historical narratives and backstory, from the Dance of Dragons being about keeping a woman off the Iron Throne to almost all discussion of Lyanna Stark and Ashara Dayne being from external male perspectives despite how critically important they both were to the events of Robert's Rebellion), Liminal (the obvious themes on display in the POVs of the major female characters like Cersei, Sansa, Dany, etc) and SUPERLiminal (all the visceral violence, much of which is sexualized, which is directed toward women both in the background and foreground of the story's universe). I totally get being uncomfortable with it or even having it be a deal-breaker though. I personally acknowledge that I'm a white cis het man so its inherently going to bother me less and so its easier to appreciate the larger picture and the little subversions that show that Martin clearly recognizes this whole status quo as being wrong and that the world is capable of being better, like the more egalitarian Dornish society or characters like Olenna and Marje and Brienne or even Jaime (that scene of "questionable consent" with Cersei in the sept is still one of my most hated in the show even after S7 and 8.)
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Apr 19, 2021 17:49
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Nope it's voyeuristic and gross and adds almost nothing to the show. It's a simple question of 'what is the most efficient way to shock and upset a modern first worlder?' IMO Maybe the books make it work but from the, uh, extracts I have read I don't think so.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:50
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They should remove all the killing too
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Apr 19, 2021 17:57
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Off the top of my head I don't think the book has many explicit 'rape' scenes - where that's the actual focus of the scene rather than something described third hand. The main ones in the show that came across as really loving bad (Cersei, Sansa) either weren't in the books or were handled differently IIRC. I'm not going to look that up though. 
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Apr 19, 2021 17:58
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stev posted:Off the top of my head I don't think the book has many explicit 'rape' scenes - where that's the actual focus of the scene rather than something described third hand. The main ones in the show that came across as really loving bad (Cersei, Sansa) either weren't in the books or were handled differently IIRC. I'm not going to look that up though. Yes, most of the explicit sexual violence wasn't actually in the books, its almost always second or third hand or was made into explicit sexual violence in the show when in the books it wasn't. This isn't to say it wasn't foregrounded material, but it wasn't SHOWN in the way the show did. Sometimes it made sense, like when they removed the cringey "romance," from Dany's initial relationship with Drogo that was meant to make it less rapey. Other times is was bullshit which rewrote what actually happened in the books, like with Jaime and Cersei in the Sept. Other times like with Sansa it was just invented wholesale.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:04
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Well there is some alternative horrific poo poo with Ramsay in the books right?
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Apr 19, 2021 18:07
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thebardyspoon posted:Well there is some alternative horrific poo poo with Ramsay in the books right? Oh god yes, Ramsay is the worst.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:08
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Orange Devil posted:Or when the Hound destroys Arya's water dancing poo poo and makes fun of her for believing Syrio had anything approaching a chance against knights in armour. Yeah, but Syrio held his own against knights in armor with a wooden sword.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:20
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Alhazred posted:Yeah, but Syrio held his own against knights in armor with a wooden sword. Its an interesting scene because we the audience want to side with Arya, we know that Sandor is not doing Syrio's skill justice, we saw him beat four men in armor to the ground with that stick, even with they were useless guard mooks. But we also have to acknowledge the lesson he's teaching to Arya, which is a valuable one in the show's universe: skill, especially in mere orthodox martial arts like sword-fighting, has limits. Equipment, circumstances and your willingness to do whatever it takes are just as important, maybe even more important.
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Apr 19, 2021 18:29
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Sanguinia posted:Its an interesting scene because we the audience want to side with Arya, we know that Sandor is not doing Syrio's skill justice, we saw him beat four men in armor to the ground with that stick, even with they were useless guard mooks. But we also have to acknowledge the lesson he's teaching to Arya, which is a valuable one in the show's universe: skill, especially in mere orthodox martial arts like sword-fighting, has limits. Equipment, circumstances and your willingness to do whatever it takes are just as important, maybe even more important. who needs armor when you have plot armor
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Apr 19, 2021 18:38
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Sanguinia posted:Its an interesting scene because we the audience want to side with Arya, we know that Sandor is not doing Syrio's skill justice, we saw him beat four men in armor to the ground with that stick, even with they were useless guard mooks. But we also have to acknowledge the lesson he's teaching to Arya, which is a valuable one in the show's universe: skill, especially in mere orthodox martial arts like sword-fighting, has limits. Equipment, circumstances and your willingness to do whatever it takes are just as important, maybe even more important. Then it's all thrown away when she jumps at the night King from off-screen without gaining so much as a scratch. Also, tthanks for the earlier post, it makes sense. I'm not advocating for it to be removed or whatever, it's part of the narrative and it's what GRRM felt he needed to tell his story. I'm just saying it made me feel very queasy and even more so in the show because then I have to watch it instead of the scene playing out in my head as white noise...if that makes sense.
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Apr 19, 2021 19:13
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An insane mind posted:Then it's all thrown away when she jumps at the night King from off-screen without gaining so much as a scratch. Also, tthanks for the earlier post, it makes sense. I'm not advocating for it to be removed or whatever, it's part of the narrative and it's what GRRM felt he needed to tell his story. I'm just saying it made me feel very queasy and even more so in the show because then I have to watch it instead of the scene playing out in my head as white noise...if that makes sense. No that makes sense for sure, I think even Sanguinia understands where you're coming from. And again, the show made everything way worse and more gratuitous even than the books, which themselves may have gone too far sometimes. D&D seemed to really learn the wrong lesson that "controversy makes us popular!" and decided to really cram in the sexual assault for shock value. Even if it felt important to the story sometimes by the later seasons it felt like they were doing it just to get a rise. Same with the nudity, in earlier seasons it felt a bit cheesecake but at least appropriate, but I just keep going back to hearing D&D saying "we toned down the fantasy elements to appeal to normal people, like football players" and I just see them going "more tits! zombie polar bear!" while other people in the room are crying for better character development. Like it was A Thing for me that even though I loved GOT at the height of it, there were times where I'd get together with friends or even family to watch an episode because we were all into it and then a sexual assault scene would occur and everybody in the room would try really hard not to make eye contact for awhile because uggggh.
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Apr 19, 2021 19:27
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If they wanted to be truly surprising they should have had that Ollie kid be resurrected as a wight, but then for some reason he gets free will, and he shoots the Night King with an Obsidian tipped arrow, then nods at someone before exploding with the rest of the army of the dead
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Apr 19, 2021 20:00
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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nine-gear crow posted:Show-Shae, the way she was characterized, should never have wound up where and how she did, and D&D hard swerving and forcing her onto Book-Shae's endgame path was one of the first signs that these guys really didn't know what they were doing or trusted themselves to let things progress naturally away from GRRM's outline. Yeah, this is exactly how I feel about it. Shae on the show was presented as incredibly shrewd, but also (in her own way) extremely principled. You're given every reason to assume that her relationship with Tyrion was genuine, and that she operated by higher ideals than money. By S4, she's jealous of a teenage child-bride she previously wanted to protect with her life, and becomes a totally passive chess piece for the nobility as long as they pay her. S2 Shae would've clocked Tyrion's "go on! Git!" routine in a second, but seasons later she's apparently a loving idiot. Vegetable posted:There’s a clear precedent for Tywin teaching Tyrion a lesson this way. This also doesn't really make sense. loving Shae is something Tywin was doing privately for his own gratification. He didn't intend for Tyrion to find out at all, let alone as part of some sadistic "lesson"...he just happened to get caught (quite literally with his pants down, so he was not expecting that.) Show Tywin is presented as all-business. His whole thing is keeping up appearances and not letting his guard down, and it's a constant source of agitation that his children keep showing their whole asses. He also constantly voices criticism of people who make bad, rash choices based on emotion or desire, and of people who risk their reputation just to get their dicks wet. Is that guy really going to gently caress his son's favorite prostitute for revenge? The same son, mind you, that he sees as a pervert and monster who murdered his wife. It doesn't track for me, at all. The whole thing feels like D&D couldn't reconcile the characters they wrote with the way GRRM wrote them, so they chose to not try.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:01
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Collapsing Farts posted:They should remove all the killing too Characters being killed just isn't the same. I can't articulate why, I'm sure someone smarter than me can. But characters being killed or maimed is whatever, but rape is a line I wish would stop being crossed. That Ramsey raping Sansa scene was awful. And not like oh you're meant to feel awful, the scene worked!! No, it was just bad.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:09
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Book Tywin is a colossal hypocrite. He hates Tyrion and yet the general understanding is that Tyrion is far more like Tywin - or rather, Tywin is far more like Tyrion- than Tywin is comfortable admitting. Genna Lannister tells Jaime that she's loving terrified of what Tyrion will do to them now, because Tyrion is Tywin's son in spirit, and when Tywin Lannister was wronged, he wiped them from the loving map and wrote songs about how brutal his put-down was. In my opinion it's foreshadowing that Book Tyrion is going to be very instrumental in Daenerys's downfall, to the point I suspect in the books Tyrion will "find enough poison for the pack of them" and, in furious vengeance for the city basically mocking him when he was a major factor in the reason why Stannis didn't take enough city, will take vengeance by seeing the city burnt to the ground, by poisoning Daenerys with basilisk's blood. Show Tyrion never lost his "moral center" and status as a "good guy" and it honestly would not surprise me if in a few years we start hearing that HBO and D&D refused to allow Tyrion to become a villain because he sold lots of merchandise. Or maybe Dinklage had it written into his contract that he would stay a "good guy" because he didn't like the idea of portraying a villain. Dinklage has always been extraordinarly selective of his roles regarding him being a dwarf, refusing to do any 'stereotypical' roles. GRRM has come out and basically said a problem he had with the show was that they pushed certain characters more depending on "the numbers."
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Apr 19, 2021 21:16
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Dinklage was a villain in X-men, although that doesn't mean that he couldn't have still had that kind of contract for GOT. I think more likely though is that D&D saw him as being popular so couldn't handle making him flawed. Early GOT is introducing characters one after another, even faster than they kill them, and they all add to the richness of the world. Late GOT its like, look, these 6 action figures are the heroes, and nobody else matters. No creativity or originality just "lets see Jon stick his sword in another zombie". Tyrion is the guy who drinks and knows things and that's just how things are, they can't change. Ah I just made this point a few pages ago.  Also book Tyrion is much less appealing not just personality wise but also physically. He's supposed to be disfigured but they just gave him a sexy scar and then you barely notice it later on. He should be fully missing a nose to the point that children are terrified of him. But D&D have no faith in the fans so he stays good looking and just keeps making quips.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:23
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I remember people wondering if the dwarf acting troupe would even be in the show for Joffrey’s Wedding because of how offensive it could be.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:26
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Zaphod42 posted:Dinklage was a villain in X-men, although that doesn't mean that he couldn't have still had that kind of contract for GOT. I think more likely though is that D&D saw him as being popular so couldn't handle making him flawed. I'm pretty sure Dinklage has stated that he was all for turning grotesque and he would have been fine being a villain. But to be honest, I did like the way Jaime and Tyrion ended up before Tyrion moving to Essos better. Even in the books it's obvious Jaime actually genuinely loves Tyrion. I would just have liked...I don't know, a Tyrion that is allowed to be darker than just smart comic relief you know? Him turning Dany loose against his sister would have been something that works and would have still had people rooting for his plan coming together. The fact that he sits in a loving crypt while an army of the unliving marches towards the castle shows how much DnD 'got' the character.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:40
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An insane mind posted:I'm pretty sure Dinklage has stated that he was all for turning grotesque and he would have been fine being a villain. But to be honest, I did like the way Jaime and Tyrion ended up before Tyrion moving to Essos better. Even in the books it's obvious Jaime actually genuinely loves Tyrion. I would just have liked...I don't know, a Tyrion that is allowed to be darker than just smart comic relief you know? Him turning Dany loose against his sister would have been something that works and would have still had people rooting for his plan coming together. One of the things that makes GOT great in the early seasons is it isn't as simple as just "good guys" or "bad guys" and everybody had reasons for doing what they do and was just trying to do best by their own. Even Jaime and Cersei, ostensibly the "bad guys", you understand they're just trying to take care of each other but the world they live in makes that difficult and forces them into conflicts. The show created really good reasons for Cersei to absolutely hate Tyrion, and for Tyrion to hate Cersei, and seeing the two of them just absolutely hating each other and Jaime being caught in the middle but having legitimate strong feelings towards both of them is really interesting, and after Tyrion leaves for Essos nothing ever comes of any of it other than rocks fall, everybody dies. The actors are actors and not writers but they'd be better writers than D&D, even Dinklage was incredulous at Tyrion being so stupid in the last season. "Tyrion is smart, but I guess he's not THAT smart" - Dinklage
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Apr 19, 2021 21:49
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Sky Shadowing posted:GRRM has come out and basically said a problem he had with the show was that they pushed certain characters more depending on "the numbers." You had instances like Tyrion where his most negative traits and actions were omitted, which is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things. Then you had some of Daenerys' early actions presented in a justified and unambiguous positive light that would only inevitably turn into a problem when they had 2 episodes left and had to swerve back into the notes GRRM left them. But the characters and plots being guided by audience reception came out wide into the open when they decided first thing they had to do in season 6 was to completely destroy the Dorne plot due to it's poor reception after going through the trouble of securing Alexander Siddig for the role of Doran. After that point we had Arya cartwheeling across Bravos with her guts split open and PWNing all the Faceless n00bs, Cersei completely aborting the Tyrell and Church plot without any consequences, the Hound 360º back into his old badass one liner self, Tormund suddenly getting a lot more screentime and surviving in situations he shouldn't and the entirety of season 7 and 8. I would even go as far as to say that the only reason Jorah died in s8 was because it was the most widely accepted satisfying conclusion to his story arc even between soccer moms and NFL players, which is why his stoneskin plot is picked up and discarded almost immediately to position him on the route for said conclusion. lezard_valeth fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 19, 2021 |
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Apr 19, 2021 21:50
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