Derek Chauvin Trial Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Derek Chauvin Trial Thread

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

How soon do we think we will get a verdict? As far as I know it could take days? And I suspect Chauvin could appeal as well?

Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Apr 19, 2021

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:22

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# ? May 28, 2024 02:49

Velocity Raptor: Jul 27, 2007; I MADE A PROMISE
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:

How soon do we think we will get a verdict? And I suspect Chauvin could appeal as well?

Appeal is pretty much a given. The judge even told the defense they should file that relatively quickly.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:24

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

Velocity Raptor posted:

Appeal is pretty much a given. The judge even told the defense they should file that relatively quickly.

Ugh....

Granted, I totally I get that people have a right to appeal have to go through this whole process again is awful.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:26

Paracaidas: Sep 24, 2016; Consistently Tedious!

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

How soon do we think we will get a verdict? As far as I know it could take days? And I suspect Chauvin could appeal as well?

A helpful thread from Sahan Journal, one of Minneapolis' better news outlets with the demise of the altweeklies
https://mobile.twitter.com/SahanJournal/status/1384255100571439105
https://mobile.twitter.com/SahanJournal/status/1384255110570643459
https://mobile.twitter.com/SahanJournal/status/1384255118611079179
https://mobile.twitter.com/SahanJournal/status/1384255120469151751

From the linked story:

quote:

So how long will this take? It�s hard to say, [former head public defender Mary] Moriarty said.

�I can say that the fact that they are sequestered makes it likely that they�ll come back earlier,� Moriarty said. �There�s a lot of pressure on jurors who are kept together, they don�t get to go home at night and get refreshed, eat their own food, sleep in their own bed.�

Basically nobody knows, probably not long, and you shouldn't read anything into how long it is/isn't taking.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:29

Velocity Raptor: Jul 27, 2007; I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Ugh....

Granted, I totally I get that people have a right to appeal have to go through this whole process again is awful.

If it's any consolation, an appeal isn't a whole new trial. The appellate court simply reads through the records and verifies that everything was handled properly.

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/types-cases/appeals

quote:

Appeals are decided by panels of three judges working together. The appellant presents legal arguments to the panel, in writing, in a document called a "brief." In the brief, the appellant tries to persuade the judges that the trial court made an error, and that its decision should be reversed.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:29

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

Ugh....

Granted, I totally I get that people have a right to appeal have to go through this whole process again is awful.

As an FYI, if an appeals trial is granted, it will be years in the future. The appeals process is very long and requires a high bar to be even granted an appeals trial. I think it's impossible to say at this point if it's likely or not likely that an appeals trial will be granted along with any possible outcomes (any law goons, please correct me if I'm wrong).

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:32

zzyzx: Mar 2, 2004

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

How soon do we think we will get a verdict? As far as I know it could take days? And I suspect Chauvin could appeal as well?

The verdict is probably tomorrow or Wednesday, but it's entirely up to the jurors. A notice of appeal will follow relatively quickly but the appeal itself takes a while - Mohamed Noor was sentenced June 2019 and the state court of appeals upheld his conviction this February.

To make things more complicated, the state supreme court has agreed to hear Noor's appeal about whether 3rd-degree murder applies to an act targeted at a particular person, but hasn't resolved it yet. If Chauvin is acquitted on murder 2 (which seems fairly likely) and convicted on the lessers, his murder 3 conviction will hang on what happens in the Noor case later this year.

(If it's upheld, Chauvin will move on to the other appellate issues - whatever objections defense counsel preserved at trial, Maxine Waters learning why you say "no comment while the case is ongoing", so on.)

# ? Apr 19, 2021 22:50

LLCoolJD: Dec 8, 2007; Musk threatens the inorganic promotion of left-wing ideology that had been taking place on the platform

Block me for being an unironic DeSantis fan, too!

I really liked the rebuttal argument but really the defense did do a meticulous job of drawing out the evidence in mitigation. Reading the tea leaves: manslaughter

Gaupo Guacho posted:

maxine waters is a loving dumbass

Well, yes.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:02

Nelson Mandingo: Mar 27, 2005

quote:

He also reminded jurors that Minneapolis police take an oath to protect with courage, and said it might be difficult to "imagine a police officer doing something like this,� but reminded jurors that they were asked during jury selection to set aside any preconceived notions about police officers.

�George Floyd was not a threat to anyone. He wasn�t trying to hurt anyone. He wasn�t trying to do anything to anyone. Facing George Floyd that day that did not require one ounce of courage. And none was shown on that day. No courage was required. All that was required was a little compassion and none was shown on that day.�

I gotta say I think the prosecutor did a great job and threw in a terrific closing statement.

Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 19, 2021

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:07

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Nelson Mandingo posted:

I gotta say I think the prosecutor did a great job and threw in a terrific closing statement.

i am guessing 3rd degree probably and manslaughter. maybe even 2nd degree.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:08

Nelson Mandingo: Mar 27, 2005

Dapper_Swindler posted:

i am guessing 3rd degree probably and manslaughter. maybe even 2nd degree.

I suspect if Chauvin skates any charges it'll be murder 2, but I think murder 3 and or manslaughter are pretty much a given with how the police chiefs testified against him. Out of anything and the video and facts itself I think that sealed his fate.

If he gets murder 2, he's dying in prison.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:10

Monaghan: Dec 29, 2006

The prosecutorial misconduct line is 100% for appeal. I'm an Canadian lawyer, but it is my understanding that in order to win an appeal on that issue, even in the states, you need to bring it up during the trial itself. You can just sit on it and not bring it up.

Now, I don't think he'll win on that, but you want to use every card you can.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:11

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Nelson Mandingo posted:

If he gets murder 2, he's dying in prison.

Why's this?

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:12

BIG FLUFFY DOG: Feb 16, 2011; On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Whats the difference between murder 3 and manslaughter in minnesota?

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:19

celewign: Jul 11, 2015; just get us in the playoffs

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Whats the difference between murder 3 and manslaughter in minnesota?

Dude this was just covered a page ago.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:22

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Whats the difference between murder 3 and manslaughter in minnesota?

Murder charges I posted earlier

Kalit posted:

The specifics on these charges can vary between states, I believe. I am not a lawyer, but here's the local newspaper summary:

quote:
What is second-degree unintentional murder?
For a conviction of second-degree unintentional murder, the state's prosecutors will have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while assaulting him. This is the most serious charge and carries a presumed sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years, according to state sentencing guidelines.

The cause of Floyd's death is likely to be a major focus of the trial. Expect the defense to question Floyd's overall health and try to claim that he was already compromised before Chauvin put his knee on his neck. Prosecutors are likely to assert that Floyd would still be alive if the former officer hadn't pinned his neck to the ground for about nine minutes. There will almost certainly be much discussion about Floyd's drug use and underlying health conditions.

What will not be an issue: whether Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. None of the charges require prosecutors to prove the former officer was trying to kill him.

What is third-degree murder?
Initially, Chauvin faced an additional charge of third-degree murder, but Cahill dismissed that charge and denied a request from the prosecution to reinstate it. The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Friday that the judge was wrong to refuse reinstating the third-degree murder charge and sent the case back to Cahill for consideration. After the Minnesota Supreme Court declined to consider an appeal from the defense, Cahill reinstated the charge Thursday. It also carries a presumptive sentence in this case of 10 3⁄4 years to 15 years, according to state sentencing guidelines.

Third-degree murder requires prosecutors to prove that someone caused the death of another "by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life." Legal experts note that the definition of "depraved mind" is murky� as is the legal line between "depraved mind" and the "culpable negligence" standard for manslaughter.

Historically, third-degree murder has been used to prosecute drug dealers who sold deadly products but weren't planning to kill specific individuals. But in 2019, former Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor was convicted of third-degree murder in the death of Justine Ruszczyk Damond after she called 911 to report a possible sexual assault in progress in the alley near her house. Noor fatally shot Damond from the passenger seat of a squad car, firing across his partner, who had been driving. The state Court of Appeals narrowly upheld his conviction, and the state Supreme Court will hear the case in June. Noor is currently serving a 10�-year sentence. He is the only police officer ever to be convicted of murder for an on-duty incident in Minnesota.

Here's manslaughter:

quote:

What is second-degree manslaughter?
In order to convict Chauvin of second-degree manslaughter, prosecutors must show beyond a reasonable doubt that he was "culpably negligent" and took an "unreasonable risk" with Floyd's life when he restrained him and that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great harm. Prosecutors do not have to prove that Chauvin's actions intended to cause Floyd's death, only that his actions put Floyd at risk of death or great bodily harm. This charge carries a presumptive sentence of four years.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 19, 2021

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:24

Kevyn: Mar 5, 2003; I just want to smile. Just once. I'd like to just, one time, go to Disney World and smile like the other boys and girls.

Maybe they�ll stretch the verdict til April 29th for maximum Rodney King parallelism.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:25

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gaupo Guacho posted:

maxine waters is a loving dumbass

Maxine Waters is also 100% correct in that Police response to not one, but two police shootings is to aggressively harass and attack protestors demanding accountability.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:27

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

Gaupo Guacho posted:

maxine waters is a loving dumbass

I would not recommend you saying that if you ever visit LA.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:31

Yoshi Wins: Jul 14, 2013

Is it normal for juries to compromise when they don't all agree on all the charges? I've read the jury instructions, and it does say that the charges are to be considered separately, so it seems that they're not supposed to do that, but are there actual consequences if they do? And do juries that do not unanimously agree on everything commonly do that? Like if 9 people want to convict on murder 3, and 7 people want to convict on murder 2, is it commonplace for them to just say, "OK, we'll unanimously convict on 3 and acquit on 2 to avoid a hung jury"?

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:31

Teddybear: May 16, 2009; Look! A teddybear doll!
It's soooo cute!

Yoshi Wins posted:

Is it normal for juries to compromise when they don't all agree on all the charges? I've read the jury instructions, and it does say that the charges are to be considered separately, so it seems that they're not supposed to do that, but are there actual consequences if they do? And do juries that do not unanimously agree on everything commonly do that? Like if 9 people want to convict on murder 3, and 7 people want to convict on murder 2, is it commonplace for them to just say, "OK, we'll unanimously convict on 3 and acquit on 2 to avoid a hung jury"?

Fun fact: by and large, what happens in a jury room is a black box to the legal system. You put the evidence in and the jury spits a verdict out, and the court can only pry into what happened in the jury room in very, very limited circumstances, more or less only in situations where the jury discriminated against the defendant on a protected category. So even if they say "consider them separately," there's nothing really stopping them from coming to a compromise like that.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:35

Gaupo Guacho: Aug 5, 2010; by Pragmatica

CommieGIR posted:

Maxine Waters is also 100% correct in that Police response to not one, but two police shootings is to aggressively harass and attack protestors demanding accountability.

who gives a poo poo if she's correct? the point is that if she gives the defense even a slight chance to successfully plead for a mistrial because she had to opine on the verdict before it happens then she's giving Chavun a lifeline. the most important thing right now is that this guy actually serves real jail time

this is all inherently obvious but I guess ill state it for clarity

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:36

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Gaupo Guacho posted:

who gives a poo poo if she's correct? the point is that if she gives the defense even a slight chance to successfully plead for a mistrial because she had to opine on the verdict before it happens then she's giving Chavun a lifeline. the most important thing right now is that this guy actually serves real jail time

this is all inherently obvious but I guess ill state it for clarity

You could say the same about the entire marches in protest, but given that this pathetic defense is being laughed off by both the judge and nearly everyone in law: Its stupid to claim anything different. Regardless of the judge's words as well, we have a broken Justice system that is wringing Black Americans dry through abuse and murder, something has to change, and its bigger than Chauvin.

Because regardless of the verdict at this point, its entirely about holding police accountable, and Chauvin isn't the only one to hold accountable now. Its worth noting that Maxine's words are being taken ENTIRELY out of context to reinforce Right Wing propaganda, so good job reinforcing it as a valid defense tactic?

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 19, 2021

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:40

Yoshi Wins: Jul 14, 2013

Teddybear posted:

Fun fact: by and large, what happens in a jury room is a black box to the legal system. You put the evidence in and the jury spits a verdict out, and the court can only pry into what happened in the jury room in very, very limited circumstances, more or less only in situations where the jury discriminated against the defendant on a protected category. So even if they say "consider them separately," there's nothing really stopping them from coming to a compromise like that.

That's interesting, and I think that sounds more good than bad. Thanks for the info.

# ? Apr 19, 2021 23:56

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Gaupo Guacho posted:

who gives a poo poo if she's correct? the point is that if she gives the defense even a slight chance to successfully plead for a mistrial because she had to opine on the verdict before it happens then she's giving Chavun a lifeline. the most important thing right now is that this guy actually serves real jail time

this is all inherently obvious but I guess ill state it for clarity

TBH, I would be shocked if that was a factor in an appeals. She has nothing to do with the trial and the jury was given instructions to not watch the news. So unless a juror admitted they heard that news, I cannot imagine it being a consideration. Warning: I am not a lawyer, so I might be 100% wrong.

E: As an addendum, I do agree with you that she shouldn't have made a public statement about the outcome of the trial because of news outlets picking it up before the verdict. But I would say the chances of it actually affecting an appeals hearing is nearly 0%

Kalit fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Apr 20, 2021

# ? Apr 20, 2021 00:03

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

Given Trump's and political celebrities comments on court cases I highly doubt it'll have any impact. Right-wing media will eat it up as they as always do and we should avoid feeding them. That said, it was not a wise decision.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 00:11

Nelson Mandingo: Mar 27, 2005

Gort posted:

Why's this?

He's probably getting the full run-up if he gets murder 2. That's like 30+ years in prison and he's already in his 40's.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 00:14

Velocity Raptor: Jul 27, 2007; I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING

Don't cops get a lot of poo poo from the other inmates in prison as well?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 00:49

DarklyDreaming: Apr 4, 2009; Fun scary

Velocity Raptor posted:

Don't cops get a lot of poo poo from the other inmates in prison as well?

Oh totally, but that usually also means they get priority protection from the wardens

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:00

funkymonks: Aug 31, 2004; Pillbug

This is anecdotal but it can show what kind of nonsense decides people�s fates.

I served on a civil jury and it was, in my opinion and everyone elses, a no brainer decision and we had one holdout who didn�t want to award any money. We ended up agreeing to find the defendant liable and then voted yes/no with each yes vote being worth 1/12 of some amount we calculated previously. So the plaintiff got 11/12 of the amount we decided was appropriate and that one juror went home satisfied.

None of this negotiation at all was relayed to the judge, lawyers, or people involved. All we handed them was the verdict and amount.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:16

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

SchnorkIes posted:

I feel like all these murder 2/3 etc laws in various states exist specifically so that you can feel good about letting basically anyone off the hook. So vague, so hard to pin down if you weren't there. See Rittenhouse also

No? The act of killing is perhaps one of the most complicated legal things. A sane country would have an extremely granular and multifacted approach to determing premeditation, culpability, responsibility, and other aspects if it would make any sense.

American justice system is pretty bad but this isn�t a place to criticize it at. You killing a person in traffic isn�t the same as your mom killing a person in self defence which is not the same as police officer klling justifiably which is not the same as a contract killer flying to another city to kill someone.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:18

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Velocity Raptor posted:

Don't cops get a lot of poo poo from the other inmates in prison as well?

Lol this is actually kind of bullshit. The level of ignorance lost people have about prison dynamics is fairly high.

I mean no disrespect but generalities don't usually hold weight in prisons. Guards and white supremacists are basically hand in hand colluding. So the fact that derek chauvin killed a (insert favorite anti black slurr here) means he is a protected hero by the guard-supremacist alliance that exists in many prisons and the black/nation of islam gangs,, asian gangs, and hispanic gangs are not going to knife derek chauvin as they'd lose their drug pipeline which allows control of the majority of prison functions and prisoners.

Sorry for my all over the place explanation. There really is no good way to get my point across without delving deep into prison culture in a way that forum posting just wont relay. I haven't been in any prisons etc but being in the Army made me more receptive to the knowledge on the invisible side of this issue.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:23

Jaxyon: Mar 7, 2016; I’m just saying I would like to see a man beat a woman in a cage. Just to be sure.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Lol this is actually kind of bullshit. The level of ignorance lost people have about prison dynamics is fairly high.

I mean no disrespect but generalities don't usually hold weight in prisons. Guards and white supremacists are basically hand in hand colluding. So the fact that derek chauvin killed a (insert favorite anti black slurr here) means he is a protected hero by the guard-supremacist alliance that exists in many prisons and the black/nation of islam gangs,, asian gangs, and hispanic gangs are not going to knife derek chauvin as they'd lose their drug pipeline which allows control of the majority of prison functions and prisoners.

Sorry for my all over the place explanation. There really is no good way to get my point across without delving deep into prison culture in a way that forum posting just wont relay. I haven't been in any prisons etc but being in the Army made me more receptive to the knowledge on the invisible side of this issue.

I'd really be interested in a prison culture post/thread because we incarcerate more than anyone in the US and because of that it's a really serious part of the US and US politics that most [white] people are blind to.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:57

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Jaxyon posted:

I'd really be interested in a prison culture post/thread because we incarcerate more than anyone in the US and because of that it's a really serious part of the US and US politics that most [white] people are blind to.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 01:59

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Jaxyon posted:

I'd really be interested in a prison culture post/thread because we incarcerate more than anyone in the US and because of that it's a really serious part of the US and US politics that most [white] people are blind to.

There was a prison stories thread which I think was on SA which had a lot of poo poo in it.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 02:08

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

Jaxyon posted:

I would not recommend you saying that if you ever visit LA.

Noted peaceful utopia and well-run city LA.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 03:24

happyhippy: Feb 21, 2005; Playing games, watching movies, owning goons. 'sup; Pillbug

Jaxyon posted:

I'd really be interested in a prison culture post/thread because we incarcerate more than anyone in the US and because of that it's a really serious part of the US and US politics that most [white] people are blind to.

I've been going down the rabbit hole on US Prison life the last few weeks on Youtube.
Check out a channel called 'Fresh Out', its a guy who interviews ex prisoners from all over.
There are loads though.

Also has an amazing interview of an ex-mafia guy with stories you would never think of.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 06:16

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

happyhippy posted:

Also has an amazing interview of an ex-mafia guy with stories you would never think of.

I'm assuming it's Michael Franzese, since he's all over the place lately?

# ? Apr 20, 2021 08:04

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

2nd is unpremeditated best of the moment, 3rd is felony murder or murder where you just had callous disregard and didn�t think �Imma kill this guy�

How is that different from manslaughter?

EDIT: I should have scrolled down. Lots of answers.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 09:45

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# ? May 28, 2024 02:49

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Nelson Mandingo posted:

I suspect if Chauvin skates any charges it'll be murder 2, but I think murder 3 and or manslaughter are pretty much a given with how the police chiefs testified against him. Out of anything and the video and facts itself I think that sealed his fate.

If he gets murder 2, he's dying in prison.

You can be convicted for more than one of these? I would have thought being convicted of one, precludes be convicted of the others.

# ? Apr 20, 2021 09:56

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