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bobjr posted:I remember people wondering if the dwarf acting troupe would even be in the show for Joffrey’s Wedding because of how offensive it could be. This reminds me - how did Show-Only people respond to Joffrey's death? Because as a book reader the way they paused after the dwarf jousting made it feel really heavily telegraphed that someting dramatic was about to happen. I remember thinking that they really missed a trick by not having him die during the joust. Just have that sudden swerve of the absurd and humiliating display and then BAM Joffrey's choking, eyes bulging, clawing at his throat.
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Apr 19, 2021 22:51
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Both of my friends who hadn't read the books saw it coming. The way Joffrey was being openly psychotic and harrassing and ordering Tyrion to kneel while everyone else in the party was in silence or looking at him with disgust was a strong signal that some comeuppance would be happening. That scene kind of dragged on for a bit, and as far as I can remember book Joffrey was never so openly hostile to anyone, or at least not in "full room watching in silence" context. One of my friends' guess was that he'd simply just choke on the cake while harrassing Tyrion, to go along with the trend of powerful figures dieing mundane deaths like Khal Drogo or Robert.
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Apr 20, 2021 02:37
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I forget everything but remember the book has people having more of a good time, including laughing at the dwarf show and at Tyrion, where the show was more Joffrey being the only one really enjoying it and everyone else was kind of just silent until he died.
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Apr 20, 2021 04:20
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bobjr posted:I forget everything but remember the book has people having more of a good time, including laughing at the dwarf show and at Tyrion, where the show was more Joffrey being the only one really enjoying it and everyone else was kind of just silent until he died. Yeah, in the books Joffrey is WAY more of an unhinged rear end in a top hat than he is on the show at the wedding, requiring more people step in at times and reel him back like Cersei and Tywin (Margaery is nearly a non-presence in the book from what I recall), but yeah everyone in the crowd is going along with it because they either enjoy the cruelty too, or are terrified of seeming to not enjoy things in the face of a vindictive lunatic like Joffrey. The show makes it more uncomfortable by doing the whole "no one else is laughing, dude" thing with Joffrey and his antics past a certain point.
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Apr 20, 2021 06:42
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Did show Varys ever say why he didn't support Renly's claim? Show Varys seemed to be all for the sake of the people, and show Renly was loved by everyone, was being backed up by the Tyrell army (when fighting was still their forte and their army could challenge Stannis') compassionate and wise enough to avoid needlessly prolonging the war by striking a deal with the North. In the books at least it's pretty clear that Varys only cares about a Targaryen on the throne.
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Apr 20, 2021 08:02
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Is there even anyone in the books who genuinely gives a poo poo about the commoners/peasantry?
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Apr 20, 2021 08:37
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Orange Devil posted:Is there even anyone in the books who genuinely gives a poo poo about the commoners/peasantry? Brienne maybe due to her idealistic views of chivalry, but the shitcrap world of Westeros might have beaten the notion out of her head by the end of DwD
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Apr 20, 2021 08:45
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Orange Devil posted:Is there even anyone in the books who genuinely gives a poo poo about the commoners/peasantry? Brienne...maybe early Dany if you read her chapters in the most forgiving way. Past-Jaime seems to have done to some extent...the Sparrow? The problem for me is, the peasantry doesn't seem to have a presence beyond background populace in the books. You don't really know anyone's stance on them because they don't get mentioned at all. Caveat here is that it's been a while since I read the books.
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Apr 20, 2021 09:04
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I wouldn't go as far as to say he cares about them, but the Hound seems to understand the peasantry better than pretty much anyone else.
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Apr 20, 2021 09:16
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Brienne is the kind of idiot who genuinely believes in the self-serving justification propaganda bullshit that is chivalry. Brienne is Don Quixote, change my mind. And lol, she still spends her whole life applying violence for nobles who patently give negative fucks about the peasantry and murder and sacrifice them at will. An insane mind posted:Brienne...maybe early Dany if you read her chapters in the most forgiving way. Past-Jaime seems to have done to some extent...the Sparrow? The problem for me is, the peasantry doesn't seem to have a presence beyond background populace in the books. You don't really know anyone's stance on them because they don't get mentioned at all. Caveat here is that it's been a while since I read the books. I feel like this isn't really true. It's true none of the POV characters really take time to reflect on them much, but this I think shows how these nobles literally don't even spare a thought for these people as they a priori consider them beneath themselves. I give GRRM credit as a writer for repeatedly confronting the reader with the impact of all the nobles' petty scheming and power plays on the peasantry however. A careful reader is given to understand in no uncertain terms the absolute disaster taking place in Westeros amongst the smallfolk. It's why any modern reader having favorite characters who they hope will win the game of thrones or whatever severely misses the point, in my opinion. Literally every single loving noble, which means nearly every point of view character we get throughout the entire series, deserves a guillotine. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 10:00
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Hah, ok sorry. I guess that's true and as I wrote it's been a while since I read the books and maybe my more negative reading is because I've gotten a lot more negative about GRRM himself. I probably just applied my biases against GRRM to the writing. The only things that I could remember was just offhand comments about burning and pillaging and mentions of peasant murder which all seemed, to me, to be mostly after thoughts...just presented as oh well, it's war what you gonna do. Again, sorry. I should probably reread it all.
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Apr 20, 2021 11:04
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Oh I think absolutely most if not all of the characters we experience the world through have that attitude about burning, pillaging and murdering peasants in war. But you know, as readers we can choose whether or not to agree with them that their assessments are morally correct. And like, loving lol at defending feudalism in 2021.
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Apr 20, 2021 12:36
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there's a lot of stuff about the peasantry in Brienne's (and maybe Arya's too I can't remember) story in Feast For Crows that's basically all not in the show
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Apr 20, 2021 13:04
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Davos cares and it’s made explicitly clear that’s why Stannis picked him as his hand, because Stannis admits he has no idea how to relate to them so he put someone who does in an advisor position.
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Apr 20, 2021 13:54
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bobjr posted:Davos cares and it’s made explicitly clear that’s why Stannis picked him as his hand, because Stannis admits he has no idea how to relate to them so he put someone who does in an advisor position. Ah true, but I don't actually consider Davos a noble if that makes sense, he's a knighted peasant and thus able to be actually good because he can relate on a personal level.
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Apr 20, 2021 15:17
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lezard_valeth posted:Did show Varys ever say why he didn't support Renly's claim? Show Varys seemed to be all for the sake of the people, and show Renly was loved by everyone, was being backed up by the Tyrell army (when fighting was still their forte and their army could challenge Stannis') compassionate and wise enough to avoid needlessly prolonging the war by striking a deal with the North. A combination of not wanting the city to be sacked, which it would have been, and coming to trust Tyrion as the right man to be running the country
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Apr 20, 2021 16:47
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lezard_valeth posted:Did show Varys ever say why he didn't support Renly's claim? Show Varys seemed to be all for the sake of the people, and show Renly was loved by everyone, was being backed up by the Tyrell army (when fighting was still their forte and their army could challenge Stannis') compassionate and wise enough to avoid needlessly prolonging the war by striking a deal with the North. In the books Renly is an elitist, illiterate, misogynistic himbo with every negative connotation of the word so because they're still having Varys follow his book self's actions despite the changes he wouldn't consider him any use except to keep the Tyrrells at odds with everyone, divide the Baratheons and keep the war going.
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Apr 20, 2021 17:19
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I don't think fAegon is as good a king as Varys believes he will be; I think Illyrio (who I think is Aegon's father, with his wife Serra who is probably a Blackfyre) basically inadvertently sabotaged the situation. Illyrio loved to spoil the boy, and when Tyrion needles fAegon while playing cyvasse, when Tyrion wins, fAegon throws a tantrum and flips the board. Conleth Hill came out and said GRRM had told him in an email that Varys is a "good person", but I think in the end, Varys and Jaime inadvertently seeded the roots of their own family's destructions (assuming Varys is a Blackfyre) when they set Tyrion free (but in particular Jaime when he came clean about Tysha, which utterly broke Tyrion). The plan was for fAegon to wed himself to Dany to get over the rumors of his own questionable backstory; wedded to the one Targaryen of unquestionable blood (despite the fact I do nothing BUT question it), his legitimacy concerns are waived, and they can combine forces and dragons and return to Westeros to rule it as Good King Jaeharys and Good Queen Allysanne returned, a pair of Aegon the Fifths who actually have the strength to enforce their changes and make them stick. Tyrion blows holes in that plan by convincing fAegon he doesn't need Daenerys, and to sail for Westeros now and force Dany to come to him and beg to be Queen. His invasion is running into quite a few snags;l without Daenerys the Targaryen lords aren't exactly lining up to follow his banner, the Golden Company is scattered around, and if Doran demands fAegon marry Arianne to lend him his spears, that removes his ability to marry Dany. In addition fAegon's foster father JonCon, when rescuing Tyrion, contracts greyscale and is now keeping it secret lest he be abandoned to die. Now Varys and Illyrio probably also weren't anticipating that Dany's getting intel from the House of the Undying and Quaithe indicating their scheme to put a fake on the throne, the "mummer's dragon." Dany might have been willing to play along if fAegon had basically offered equal partnership in the marriage. She weds him; their children (if she has any) bear the name Targaryen (sidestepping the issue of matrilineal marriage), she gets to rule alongside him. She's not going to be content watching a fake take over her family's throne. It's frankly my belief that Jon's going to find out the truth at the same time he's handed Robb's will, and he's going to choose to reject Robb's will and head south to join up with fAegon, his "brother." (The people who knew Rhaegar will take one look at Jon and see it's true. Hell JonCon might delude himself into thinking Rhaegar named Jon after him.) fAegon will embrace Jon as his bastard brother. Dany will turn up in Dragonstone and fAegon will send Jon Snow to negotiate with her. While there the two will pretty drat quickly fall in love (inadvertently imitating their parents, since Jon is pretty much Rhaegar reborn and Dany is very much Lyanna reborn). Dany will beg Jon to abandon fAegon and come to her side, telling him fAegon's very much fake, but Jon will refuse. Jon will "turn against" Dany because she's going to kill fAegon, his "brother", and he's going to murder her to avenge him, to take the throne from her, and in an attempt to forge Lightbringer. When his sword doesn't burst into flames, Jon's going to realize it didn't work. Very shortly after, he'll find out the truth: she was right all along, fAegon was very much fake (and for added irony let's throw in that he was planning to murder Jon), but Dany was not Jon's aunt, she was his sister. It's a new theory I've started to like: Azor Ahai was the Bloodstone Emperor, and Nissa Nissa was his sister-wife, the Amethyst Empress. Azor Ahai killed her to try and forge Lightbringer, and it both worked, but at terrible cost. The horrific blood magic involved kick-started the Long Night. Jon's going to think it failed and that he murdered his sister (and lover) for no good reason, but it didn't fail. Daenerys's soul as Nissa Nissa did joined with the new Lightbringer, but the new Lightbringer was never an actual sword. It was Drogon. Dany's Stark blood will be her salvation, and she'll death-warg into Drogon. (I like the idea she'll be under the influence of basilisk's blood when she attacks King's Landing, because that makes sense to me for why Dany would be in Drogon and still choose to spare Jon: her soul is no longer in her poisoned body, so her "madness" has vanished, she's sane again). Where we go from there, I'm pretty sure Dany gets brought back (I think even the show implies it with Sam mentioning Volantis and the official song "Pray (High Valyrian)" being the Resurrection Prayer but the lyrics being "we can bring HER back", they just decided to make Jon killing Dany the Shocking Swerve at the finale rather than where I suspect it will be, the end of the Winds of Winter (since as is evidenced by my posting history, I think Dany has Stark blood, and what happens when the Winds of Winter blow? The lone wolf dies.)) I'm willing to guess Lady Stoneheart gives her the kiss of life in an act of repentance for how she treated Jon. Dany will call off Jon's execution and together they'll go against the Long Night. At the end they'll both agree, despite still being in love, to break the cycle and let Westeros chose a new ruler, and to end their family's incestuous ways. Jon will go into exile beyond the Wall, Dany will head back east and wind up recreating either Valyria or the Great Empire of the Dawn (or both at the same time).
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Apr 20, 2021 18:18
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...What?
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Apr 20, 2021 18:45
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My brain vomited again.
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Apr 20, 2021 18:56
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Orange Devil posted:Is there even anyone in the books who genuinely gives a poo poo about the commoners/peasantry? Dondarrion and the Brotherhood Without Banners? At least before they go all crazy-gently caress-the-Freys. Which is understandable. TheKirbs posted:In the books Renly is an elitist, illiterate, misogynistic himbo with every negative connotation of the word so because they're still having Varys follow his book self's actions despite the changes he wouldn't consider him any use except to keep the Tyrrells at odds with everyone, divide the Baratheons and keep the war going. Is he that bad? He comes to Brienne's defence, appoints her to his [s[King[/s] Rainbow Guard and seems to genuinely respect her. Unless I'm forgetting something major/letting show Renly shape my opinions.
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Apr 20, 2021 19:01
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Sky Shadowing posted:My brain vomited again. It's fine  it just took me longer than normal to process it all. I mean...it's out there but as with anything to with GoT not completely implausible. And a million times better than the show ending. [Insert Drogon choosing to burn down the throne instead of Jon gif here.]
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Apr 20, 2021 19:05
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Sky Shadowing posted:
Why? Targaryen Bigamy isn't exactly unprecedented.
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Apr 20, 2021 19:08
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stev posted:I wouldn't go as far as to say he cares about them, but the Hound seems to understand the peasantry better than pretty much anyone else. He's cut a few of them open to see how they tick
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Apr 20, 2021 23:03
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Is he that bad? He comes to Brienne's defence, appoints her to his [s[King[/s] Rainbow Guard and seems to genuinely respect her. Unless I'm forgetting something major/letting show Renly shape my opinions. He appointed her to stay in good with the Stormlanders and because he saw her as an exotic freakshow for him and Loras to laugh about in bed together who would freely sacrifice her life for nothing. ShowRenly being the intellectual brother is something that was taken from BookStannis and his criticism of Robert's war stories was completely invented just for him. His interaction with Catelyn in the books is less making a deal with the North and more humouring them while holding her captive so 'she can see what happens to rebels' when his army attacks Stannis'. TheKirbs fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 23:29
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I always thought Renly would be like Robert-lite in terms of ruling, where things aren't openly destructive but there's corruption and the king is more focused on having a good time rather than actually being productive. He's just much more openly charismatic than Stannis, who's a bit of a rules-lawyer about things, which usually isn't shown to be a bad thing and if anything is willing to compromise on that even.
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Apr 21, 2021 01:23
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Show Renly struck me as less like an irresponsible party animal like Robert, and more too affable and compromising of a person to be "a good king." They even tease the sense that he and Robb could form a good faith military alliance and clean up the whole mess in a few months before he gets shadow-babied. He's more naive than disinterested in ruling. Though, I think Renly's reign would've been good because he obviously wouldn't be running the show. Margaery would. And given that she's a non-sociopathic Cersei, with a direct line on the continent's food basket and a fantastic sense of how to manipulate politics, she'd probably have been a best case scenario of all the options.
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Apr 21, 2021 02:13
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Xealot posted:Show Renly struck me as less like an irresponsible party animal like Robert, and more too affable and compromising of a person to be "a good king." They even tease the sense that he and Robb could form a good faith military alliance and clean up the whole mess in a few months before he gets shadow-babied. He's more naive than disinterested in ruling. The thing that a lot of people don't seem to get is that Renly taking control would've completely upended succession in Westoros. Instead of oldest (male) child inherits, you suddenly have whoever can raise the largest army and seize their 'rightful' domain by force as the de facto means of succession. Obviously feudalism sucks, but naked might equals right is hardly better, and literally anyone trying to do so could've pointed out the king and how he claimed power as to why what they were doing was justified. Rauri fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 06:48
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Rauri posted:The thing that a lot of people don't seem to get is that Renly taking control would've completely upended succession in Westoros. Instead of oldest (male) child inherits, you suddenly have whoever can raise the largest army and seize their 'rightful' domain by force as the de facto means of succession. Obviously feudalism sucks, but naked might equals right is hardly better, and literally anyone trying to do so could've pointed out king as why what they were doing was justified. Its not like it never happened in Westeros before. That's what the Dance of the Dragons was, and as horrific as it was for the countryside it didn't collapse Westerosi society or end the notion of peaceful power transition. For that matter, it didn't when Robert seized the throne either.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:50
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Sanguinia posted:Its not like it never happened in Westeros before. That's what the Dance of the Dragons was, and as horrific as it was for the countryside it didn't collapse Westerosi society or end the notion of peaceful power transition. For that matter, it didn't when Robert seized the throne either. The only reason it didn't was because it helped establish the stupid male supremacy rule / Cregan or whatever his name was pulled a successful Eddard and came to Kings Landing and put a shitload of conspirators to death / Rhaenyra's kid ended up ruling anyways. Renly winning the war would've meant dozens of conflicts wherein peasants were levied to battle over succession crises, since his only justification for seizing power was that he had a larger army than Stannis.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:54
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Rauri posted:The thing that a lot of people don't seem to get is that Renly taking control would've completely upended succession in Westoros. Instead of oldest (male) child inherits, you suddenly have whoever can raise the largest army and seize their 'rightful' domain by force as the de facto means of succession. Obviously feudalism sucks, but naked might equals right is hardly better, and literally anyone trying to do so could've pointed out the king and how he claimed power as to why what they were doing was justified. Uh, that's happened a dozen times in Westeros by the time of Game of Thrones. A major plot point is that the Baratheons took over from the Targaryens  Robert wasn't the next in line; might already makes right. Rauri posted:The only reason it didn't was because it helped establish the stupid male supremacy rule / Cregan or whatever his name was pulled a successful Eddard and came to Kings Landing and put a shitload of conspirators to death / Rhaenyra's kid ended up ruling anyways. Renly winning the war would've meant dozens of conflicts wherein peasants were levied to battle over succession crises, since his only justification for seizing power was that he had a larger army than Stannis. Justification only matters in that its a reason to get people to follow you. All that actually matters is how many people follow you. If you can convince enough powerful knights to join you, then peasants will follow too. If you have money, religion, etc. you can command power and take the throne. Succession is only ONE justification. Wildlings followed Mance Rayder, but he had no claim to the throne. Peasants followed the High Sparrow, but he had no lineage. Etc. Remember Varys' puzzle to Tyrion about "where does power lie?" Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 06:56
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He was descended from Targaryens, though, which helped. But yes, the books explicitly say his hammer won him the throne
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Apr 21, 2021 06:59
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In retrospect stannis having the literally magic ability to magic murder his opponents exactly two times is kind of meh, Renly was one of the more interesting and enigmatic elements in the first two books, a genuine opportunist not preoccupied with playing 11 dimensional chess, not concerned with magic and prophecy, etc. Gurm kind of wrote himself into a corner there, in my o.
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Apr 21, 2021 07:04
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Captain Splendid posted:He was descended from Targaryens, though, which helped. But yes, the books explicitly say his hammer won him the throne Sure, but how much do the peasants know that stuff anyways? If you kill the King you can pretty easily "discover" that you're actually a long-lost second cousin of the ruling family or something 
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Apr 21, 2021 07:05
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If Renly had won the throne through force it would have fallen to him to earn legitimacy and create a situation where people, common and powerful alike, would want his child to succeed rather than follow his example and start a war over it. Which is exactly how the Targaryen Dynasty started in the first place. And with the Tyrells directing his government I certainly wouldn't have bet against it.
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Apr 21, 2021 07:07
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Yeah but that's Monarchy.txt. Even with "clean" father to eldest son transitions that work has to happen.Zaphod42 posted:Sure, but how much do the peasants know that stuff anyways? If you kill the King you can pretty easily "discover" that you're actually a long-lost second cousin of the ruling family or something Hello yes, my name is Dmitry. Oh you heard I'd been murdered? I'm afraid not! PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 07:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Zaphod42 posted:Sure, but how much do the peasants know that stuff anyways? If you kill the King you can pretty easily "discover" that you're actually a long-lost second cousin of the ruling family or something Not only do the peasants not know, they don't care. Most can't read.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:07
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“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are.”
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Apr 21, 2021 20:07
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It's funny because the opposite is one of the things I enjoyed most in the Witcher novels (I guess the 'other' grimdark fantasy series). Sure there are lots of ignorant hicks, but also lots of ordinary farmers who might not be well informed but do care about the world they live in and will hold forth about it at length like a modern taxi driver. After all we have next to no say in real world politics but we don't go 'oo err them bigly lords ain't my concern sir, plague n turnips'll do fer me" I love the guy who shares a prison cell with the main character and immediately starts shouting at the guards to move him because he's an honest pickpocket and how dare they make him share with the political prisoners.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:In retrospect stannis having the literally magic ability to magic murder his opponents exactly two times is kind of meh, Renly was one of the more interesting and enigmatic elements in the first two books, a genuine opportunist not preoccupied with playing 11 dimensional chess, not concerned with magic and prophecy, etc. I'm one of the weirdos that much prefers the faux historical fiction aspect (which made the GRRM video I think I mentioned earlier funny) so Renly being taken out by a shadow baby feels so cheap and lame.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:43
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