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Kyrosiris posted:That's what's always stopped them from being truly sympathetic figures to me. If there had been anything that pointed to "yes, this plan is 100% foolproof if we can pull it off", it'd come off a lot less "cool murder, still interdimensional genocide". That's one of the nice things about how the Ascians were written. You can understand how they got there. You can see how good people were driven to a place that made them do horrible things and how they've been damaged by forces now outside their control to be unable to stop this cycle of horrible poo poo. You can feel bad for the people they were. But the people who they are now need to be stopped by whatever means are required to do the stopping.
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Apr 20, 2021 20:38
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The Eden quest even kinda explains how the Ascians' thought process works, arguably. From their vast, immortal perspective they see the same souls (and Hades, in particular, can explicitly see individual souls and recognize them across lives) split up across a bunch of people and shards but functionally expressing similar natures across their recurring lives. It's not really hard to envision them rationalizing it as nothing actually being lost, because they're just putting the original people back together and the individual's basic nature is still expressed across lives. Azem, in all their lives, has been the Minister of Enthusiastic Walks, making friends and kicking rear end. So really nothing is lost, since they'll be incarnated again in (from the Amaurotine perspective) the blink of an eye, and as for all the shards, well, really, you're just putting people back together... Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 20, 2021 |
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Apr 20, 2021 21:30
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Emet-Selch straight tells you he doesn't consider the sundered people so it's not murder. He thought when everyone was "whole" again they'd realize how empty their previous lives were and killing them to get it back was a mercy.
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Apr 20, 2021 21:56
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Jetrauben posted:The Eden quest even kinda explains how the Ascians' thought process works, arguably. From their vast, immortal perspective they see the same souls (and Hades, in particular, can explicitly see individual souls and recognize them across lives) split up across a bunch of people and shards but functionally expressing similar natures across their recurring lives. It's not really hard to envision them rationalizing it as nothing actually being lost, because they're just putting the original people back together and the individual's basic nature is still expressed across lives. Veev posted:Emet-Selch straight tells you he doesn't consider the sundered people so it's not murder. He thought when everyone was "whole" again they'd realize how empty their previous lives were and killing them to get it back was a mercy. And then the Sundered go along with it because the Unsundered shovel a bunch of lost memories back into people's heads, restoring some measure of their past that they may have lost. Sure, they may not be Tempered, but they have the memories of someone who was and a bunch of other people telling them that this is how they can fix things and make everyone whole again. I wonder if Fandaniel had been looking for some sort of way out before he was ever inducted into the group, and all of this is .. who knows how many centuries .. of resentment having released all at once.
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Apr 20, 2021 22:46
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Gearhead posted:That's one of the nice things about how the Ascians were written. You can understand how they got there. You can see how good people were driven to a place that made them do horrible things and how they've been damaged by forces now outside their control to be unable to stop this cycle of horrible poo poo. You can feel bad for the people they were. Yeah, the whole Emet-Selch arc is "hey, turns out there's a person in there. And that person needs to die."
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Apr 20, 2021 22:49
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Bruceski posted:Yeah, the whole Emet-Selch arc is "hey, turns out there's a person in there. And that person needs to die." I feel like Hades was BEGGING for someone to stop him. When his mask slips the man is in torment.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:04
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Gearhead posted:I feel like Hades was BEGGING for someone to stop him. When his mask slips the man is in torment. Yeah I mean, while I think he was playing to win, he also knew that if he was wrong, he was a horrible monster who deserved death. This is both what stops him from just changing course, because he's committed so many atrocities already, and also why he ensures the fight is to the death.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:07
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Also Zodiark did in fact fix the laws of reality from unwinding and restored life to the world. There's no real doubt that given enough Aether Zodiark couldn't do whatever cause he was a primal made to do whatever with the life of the star.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:19
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Eimi posted:Yeah I mean, while I think he was playing to win, he also knew that if he was wrong, he was a horrible monster who deserved death. This is both what stops him from just changing course, because he's committed so many atrocities already, and also why he ensures the fight is to the death. He was playing to win, for sure, if nothing else his compulsion was forcing him to. But at the same time, he was also clearly aware he'd been compromised. I wonder if this is why Lahabrea basically burned himself to ash, having enough self awareness to know that he was being compelled to act against against his nature, but not having the power to fight back against it. The only escape would be either wearing an elaborate mask like Emet-Selch or driving yourself howling mad, like Lahabrea.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:19
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Gearhead posted:And then the Sundered go along with it because the Unsundered shovel a bunch of lost memories back into people's heads, restoring some measure of their past that they may have lost. Sure, they may not be Tempered, but they have the memories of someone who was and a bunch of other people telling them that this is how they can fix things and make everyone whole again. I wonder if Fandaniel had been looking for some sort of way out before he was ever inducted into the group, and all of this is .. who knows how many centuries .. of resentment having released all at once.
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Apr 20, 2021 23:28
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Eimi posted:Yeah I mean, while I think he was playing to win, he also knew that if he was wrong, he was a horrible monster who deserved death. This is both what stops him from just changing course, because he's committed so many atrocities already, and also why he ensures the fight is to the death. yea pretty much, the whole point of his constant 'testing' was just him going 'if I'm wrong and you split off versions of my people are just as noble and valid as we were in the first place you have to loving kill me for the horrors I've done'. He was fighting to win and didn't think there were many who could prove him wrong but he did absolutely seem to genuinely believe if anyone could it'd be the WoL
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Apr 20, 2021 23:46
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It's like I've said before, if you were to say, have Emet-Selch in a Dissidia game, he would absolutely be aligned with Cosmos. The man helped save the world. His ideal world is one of peace, harmonious contemplation, abundance and gentleness. He just (from his perspective) saw that world and everyone he knew destroyed, and would give anything to get it back because he can't see any other way for him to fight for those he loves and not. Veev posted:Emet-Selch straight tells you he doesn't consider the sundered people so it's not murder. He thought when everyone was "whole" again they'd realize how empty their previous lives were and killing them to get it back was a mercy. Yeah, I'm just saying the apparent demonstrations of how souls and reincarnation works make it make even more sense - from the Amaurotine perspective this whole thing is this weird divergent dream which is keeping people from being able to be themselves. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 00:14
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Veev posted:Emet-Selch straight tells you he doesn't consider the sundered people so it's not murder. He thought when everyone was "whole" again they'd realize how empty their previous lives were and killing them to get it back was a mercy. That felt like self-deception to me because as soon as he admits to himself that the sundered are people, he is admitting that he is a monster.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:19
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Jetrauben posted:It's like I've said before, if you were to say, have Emet-Selch in a Dissidia game, he would absolutely be aligned with Cosmos. No. He would be allied with Chaos and funding ways to justify Chaos being Good, Actually.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:21
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SirSamVimes posted:That felt like self-deception to me because as soon as he admits to himself that the sundered are people, he is admitting that he is a monster. You can see the tug of war going between Hades, Minister Emet-Selch and the monster Zodiark made of both of them. And yes, the English voice for him may be a million times more snide than the Japanese one, but that voice crack just before he opened the doors sold me on him being one of the best performances I've seen in a video game period.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:22
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sexpig by night posted:yea pretty much, the whole point of his constant 'testing' was just him going 'if I'm wrong and you split off versions of my people are just as noble and valid as we were in the first place you have to loving kill me for the horrors I've done'. He was fighting to win and didn't think there were many who could prove him wrong but he did absolutely seem to genuinely believe if anyone could it'd be the WoL But he didn't beat Ardbert (who is also us). It is just that it is Ardbert who says those lines. Ardbert was willing to sacrifice himself, just as the ancient Ascians were.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:25
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Cleretic posted:No. He would be allied with Chaos and funding ways to justify Chaos being Good, Actually. This seems quite inaccurate if one views affiliation as reflecting their actual ideals. Note that I did not say Emet is good in any way. The reasons Emet is evil are largely contextual and specific to the historic events of Hydaelyn. They're not his ideal way the world ought to work, they're responses to trauma and his own perceived utmost extremity to bring back his dead world. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 00:26
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Nessus posted:What's extra interesting is, in a sense, he did beat us. In a way, the fight with Emet proved Altima's observation way back in ARR's bridge content: The people of The Source are growing to be more than the Unsundered expected. They aren't there quite yet, but they are so close.
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Apr 21, 2021 00:46
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Jetrauben posted:The reasons Emet is evil are largely contextual and specific to the historic events of Hydaelyn. Ehhhhh, I'd posit that their "okay but let's sacrifice all this not-Amaurotine life to restore the Amaurotines" gambit was evil in and of itself (and was, in fact, what got Venat and co to go and smash the "Deploy Crystal Mom" button). That may be a me thing, though.
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Apr 21, 2021 01:07
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Kyrosiris posted:Ehhhhh, I'd posit that their "okay but let's sacrifice all this not-Amaurotine life to restore the Amaurotines" gambit was evil in and of itself (and was, in fact, what got Venat and co to go and smash the "Deploy Crystal Mom" button). That may be a me thing, though. I'm still not really sure what that means, whether it's referring to sapient life or Ancient life or just engendered beasts and plants. I always got the impression it was the latter, given that the Amaurotine era apparently considered defying nature controversial?
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Apr 21, 2021 01:10
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Kyrosiris posted:Ehhhhh, I'd posit that their "okay but let's sacrifice all this not-Amaurotine life to restore the Amaurotines" gambit was evil in and of itself (and was, in fact, what got Venat and co to go and smash the "Deploy Crystal Mom" button). That may be a me thing, though. There's a point where you have to wonder what is Emet-Selch talking and what is the Tempering talking. One imagines the Tempering would encourage his faithful to use his powers to 'fix things.'
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Apr 21, 2021 01:11
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Jetrauben posted:I'm still not really sure what that means, whether it's referring to sapient life or Ancient life or just engendered beasts and plants. I always got the impression it was the latter, given that the Amaurotine era apparently considered defying nature controversial? I always got the idea that it referred to sapient life, because... well, moving on in the process that includes people like us, and we're sapient. On top of that they don't really seem to pay a lot of regard to the clearly sapient things that they made themselves beyond seeing them as tools and toys. I'm also not sure that they regarded nature very highly, either. It seemed more like they were happy with the state of affairs nature gave them, and when nature freaked out and broke things they invented new rules of nature to put it back in line.
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Apr 21, 2021 01:26
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Cleretic posted:I always got the idea that it referred to sapient life, because... well, moving on in the process that includes people like us, and we're sapient. On top of that they don't really seem to pay a lot of regard to the clearly sapient things that they made themselves beyond seeing them as tools and toys. Their stance on natural forces seemed to be fairly neutral, the story of Azem vs The Volcano revolves around them not wanting to disturb a volcanic eruption, even if there was a village of 'the new life' nearby. But they also didn't seem overly concerned when Azem stole Lahabrea's waifu pillow to absorb the Fire Aether and disperse it somewhere else.
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Apr 21, 2021 01:34
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Gearhead posted:There's a point where you have to wonder what is Emet-Selch talking and what is the Tempering talking. One imagines the Tempering would encourage his faithful to use his powers to 'fix things.' And that's a lot of guesswork because the only tempering we've seen is completely overwhelming the victim's will and identity. I prefer to ignore tempering all together when talking about the Unsundered's motivations (aside from Elidibus where he was, if I understand it, Zodiark spitting out an avatar/fragment of itself in Elidibus form); otherwise it's "Emet-Selch didn't see the sundered ad people (unless the Tempering was responsible for that)" and "Lahabrea lost his patience when he saw chances for more quick calamities (unless Tempering was in the driver's seat)".
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Apr 21, 2021 02:15
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Bruceski posted:And that's a lot of guesswork because the only tempering we've seen is completely overwhelming the victim's will and identity. I prefer to ignore tempering all together when talking about the Unsundered's motivations (aside from Elidibus where he was, if I understand it, Zodiark spitting out an avatar/fragment of itself in Elidibus form); otherwise it's "Emet-Selch didn't see the sundered ad people (unless the Tempering was responsible for that)" and "Lahabrea lost his patience when he saw chances for more quick calamities (unless Tempering was in the driver's seat)". Consider that Tiamat was also Tempered, and is probably a being of a similar scale and scope to an Ascian in terms of power. She was able to maintain her sense of self and her awareness that she had been Tempered and warned that it was possible that her behavior could be compromised by the presence of Lunar Bahamut. She couldn't say HOW she might be influenced, but she knew that she had been and could be again.
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Apr 21, 2021 02:27
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Gearhead posted:Their stance on natural forces seemed to be fairly neutral, the story of Azem vs The Volcano revolves around them not wanting to disturb a volcanic eruption, even if there was a village of 'the new life' nearby. But they also didn't seem overly concerned when Azem stole Lahabrea's waifu pillow to absorb the Fire Aether and disperse it somewhere else. You see 'neutral', I see more 'ambivalent'. Not actually caring about nature until it affects them personally (like, say, by loving with their creation magic). I read Azem in that story as a bit like Ed in Cowboy Bebop: nobody's really paying them any mind, because they know whatever they're up to is either pointless nonsense or somehow for the best.
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Apr 21, 2021 02:28
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I'm still morbidly curious what the whole cause of the original Apocalypse is going to turn out to be. They wouldn't introduce a concept like this, narratively, without probably wanting to make it important again some day.
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Apr 21, 2021 02:30
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I know, in my heart of hearts, it can’t be Lavos. But I really, really wish it was. The final enemy of XI was MMO Depopulation personified, right? Maybe this one, representing the sins of the past, is Mismanaged Production.
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Apr 21, 2021 02:44
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Gearhead posted:I'm still morbidly curious what the whole cause of the original Apocalypse is going to turn out to be. They wouldn't introduce a concept like this, narratively, without probably wanting to make it important again some day.  Give me the loving Kingdom Hearts raid, Square-Enix.
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Apr 21, 2021 03:20
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Gearhead posted:I'm still morbidly curious what the whole cause of the original Apocalypse is going to turn out to be. They wouldn't introduce a concept like this, narratively, without probably wanting to make it important again some day. give us Deus please, give us Deus Let's be real it's gonna be JenovaLavos. I am so looking forward to the moment, if it happens, when we finally encounter the memory of the Sound and get the Echo-memory of the original Azem's last stand against it and/or an atavistic soul-memory of hatred for it.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:01
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Gearhead posted:I'm still morbidly curious what the whole cause of the original Apocalypse is going to turn out to be. They wouldn't introduce a concept like this, narratively, without probably wanting to make it important again some day. I don't expect it to be nothing, but I do WANT it to be nothing. I'd really love for the source of The Sound to either be already long dead, or never alive in the first place. I've mentioned it before, I think it'd be interesting if the Ancients' world was destroyed by the Ancients themselveshaving more power than they could safely use, and then getting worked up enough that they lost all control. Sometimes there's not a great evil for humanity to go out fighting; sometimes we just blow ourselves up because we're dumb. But they wouldn't introduce a concept like this and not have it be something a Dragoon can LB3 and feel good about. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 05:19
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It can't be that because it was explicitly stated that something wrested control of their creation magic. Before the Sound, one would have to actually focus on the act of creation to make something (though a stray thought during that focus would alter it), but post-Sound any stray thought would be created regardless of whether or not they were actively trying to create something.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:27
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NachtSieger posted:
Unfortunately, any KH raid would involve getting Disney involved, and Disney is loving miserable to work with. And yes, they would have to be involved, all the KH OC's are owned by Disney and they are balls deep in taking control of basically anything involved with it. It would also have to be temporary content. That's how previous KH crossovers in other works have had to be.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:46
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I'd be happy with some creation generated from their collective unconsciousness, fears and paranoias over the millennia, which eventually grew into enough to disrupt even their normal creation magics. Neither Lavos or Jenova's MO really bits, besides being an otherworldly entity attacking the planet.
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Apr 21, 2021 05:49
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My theory: Azem ran out of things to punch. so they caused the Sound somehow in order to have more things to punch, but those clowns in Amaurot went and started summoning ultra-primals and broke the world before Azem could punch them, what a bunch of clowns.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:23
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Part of the deal of getting Yoko Taro to write the guest raid is he also got to pitch in on the main story and The Sound is us, the players. We did this.
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Apr 21, 2021 06:25
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The Sound was Midgardsormr farting so loud the Amaurotians feared his power and created Zodiark who would be able to fart even louder. The small minority who weren't afraid but rather impressed formed the Anti-Zodiark Coalition that birthed Hydaelyn, which is basically a big can of febreze.
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Apr 22, 2021 03:29
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Cleretic posted:I don't expect it to be nothing, but I do WANT it to be nothing. I like the idea of the Ancients having made their problems worse, but I feel like that grand argument about 'Stewardship of the Star' is something that will be put to the test before we're done with this. Maybe it will be one giant and terrible monster. Maybe we'll be forced to deal with threats we never considered all over the world. The New Year's poem warned of dangers both in the skies and under the ground and how, for there to be a future at all, both would have to be confronted.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:21
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Reasonably speaking it will probably draw from both Lavos and Jenova conceptually, but I would not be shocked if it's just insanely alien and the antagonistic role was not intentional on whatever it is's part, and that instead it was a Monsters from the Id kind of situation.
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Apr 22, 2021 04:46
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They could go a more cosmic horror route, where it's something from beyond and it's unintentional and uncaring for what it does. I don't think that would be the greatest follow up after Zenos is basically being written as a force of nature, but it's an option.
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Apr 22, 2021 05:08
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