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Disabled people are not a monolith. They have very specific needs for them to do things their personal, specific disabilities impact. There is no disability that makes a person generically bad at games, so a switch that makes games easier in a generic way is not a great solution for helping people with disabilities. Just take a look at that controller you yourself linked, it is highly customizable because that's literally the only way to make a controller that's useful for disabled people in general. We're not talking reaction speed or rate of motion sliders here.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:21
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JollyBoyJohn posted:No-one is joking about this though we are joking about over entitled baby ragers who think they should just be able to push a button and get the warming glow of satisfaction others had to earn The last page has joking about people being invested in accessibility. fridge corn posted:Physical disabilities that would hamper your ability to play games is going to be so varied that a software based solution is probably less than ideal. You will still struggle to play sekiro even in God mode if you can't hold a controller with both hands. Less than ideal is better than nothing, which is the entire point of accessibility. Phigs posted:Disabled people are not a monolith. They have very specific needs for them to do things their personal, specific disabilities impact. There is no disability that makes a person generically bad at games, so a switch that makes games easier in a generic way is not a great solution for helping people with disabilities. Just take a look at that controller you yourself linked, it is highly customizable because that's literally the only way to make a controller that's useful for disabled people in general. This point is why expansive options are good. For some people, reaction speed is going to be a big deal. For some people, it's just a matter of having appropriate controls. That's why I'm in favor of story mode difficulty. It doesn't cover everything, but it's a simple thing to include that would positively impact many people. There will not be a single solution, which means that in order to solve the problem, multiple solutions will be necessary. Story mode difficulty is a good thing to include in that set of solutions. signalnoise fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 09:22
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:i have autism (for real, I have a doctor's note) (it was cooler when it used to be called asperger's syndrome but that no longer exists as a separate diagnosis) Hans Asperger was a nazi collaborator
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Apr 21, 2021 09:29
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Lol every time this comes up, someone makes a bad faith, patronizing argument about how it's about "people with disabilities" in an attempt to present some sort of moral high ground, in the hopes that no one will challenge their bad opinion. It should be the center of the Fromsoft bingo card. Maybe listen to actual people with disabilities and their complaints about how inaccessible games can be in general via hardware and software options, instead of treating them like incompetents that can only approach games with kid gloves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84V6zqXHFEc It's ok to make a video game that is hard for people who want to play a hard video game. Not every game has to appeal to everyone.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:31
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signalnoise posted:Comedically high horse huh No joke I would love a thalassophobia mode in Subnautica. Make sure there is no dark water ever and absolutely no hostiles. Hell if they removed the water effects and just made it feel like I was jetting about in a jetpack and everything in the water in the main game was just hovering/flying in the air I'd go rebuy it right now (EDIT: I returned Subnautica cause I couldn't take it). Phigs fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 09:33
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Holy crap "Sekiro is conservative" such a take I still can't get over how un-selfaware are y'all chodes, making these arguments for all disabled people, failing to name a single thing actual disabled people want in their games. Goddamn what a hoot this thread is sometimes. E:FB but still cramping up Vic fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 09:33
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Someone who has lost the use of both their legs will find it very difficult to drive a car. Obviously this is problem which needs to be addressed. Fortunately, with an alternate control scheme, all the necessary inputs required to drive a car can be operated by the hands alone! Unfortunately, this only works for certain kinds of cars as it would be impossible to drive a car with a manual gearbox with this set up. Furthermore, not all cars come fitted with hand controls from the factory meaning the disabled person cannot simply hop into any car and drive it straight away. The people responsible for these oversights should be fired into the sun
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Apr 21, 2021 09:36
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Phigs posted:No joke I would love a thalassophobia mode in Subnautica. Make sure there is no dark water ever and absolutely no hostiles. Hell if they removed the water effects and just made it feel like I was jetting about in a jetpack and everything in the water in the main game was just hovering/flying in the air I'd go rebuy it right now (EDIT: I returned Subnautica cause I couldn't take it). It sounds intense as hell to play Subnautica with that phobia, just super high tension gameplay, I'm jealous.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:40
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Yeah it probably would be insane fun for a fear junkie.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:42
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fridge corn posted:The people responsible for these oversights should be fired into the sun I've ignored this dumb jab for a while now but since you keep making it, I gotta assume that is what you think my position is. I'm definitely not saying that game devs are terrible people for not including story mode. I am saying that including story mode for any game where it is feasible is something that should be done. It would be good to do. This is in contrast to this previous statement from you fridge corn posted:For games like From Software's the entire conceit of their games is the overcoming of the difficulty. Adding an easy mode ruins the entire experience sorry. If you want to see the entire game or some sort of tourist mode you can just watch someone else play I already addressed the other dumb poo poo from that post but if you're sticking with the bullshit you're putting in my mouth then there's no point in reiterating.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:43
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signalnoise posted:something that should be done. It would be good to do. I guess it's possible this argument is over the perception of what "should be done" means. Because I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the "it would be good to do" part of your statement here. I think it would be good to do and should be done are different points because "good to do" implies to me that it's an extra thing that would be nice to do but not be shameful if it isn't done, but "should be done" implies to me that it is a minimum expectation that someone should be ashamed if they don't meet it. I agree with the first sentiment, but disagree with the second.
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Apr 21, 2021 09:49
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signalnoise posted:I've ignored this dumb jab for a while now but since you keep making it, I gotta assume that is what you think my position is. I'm definitely not saying that game devs are terrible people for not including story mode. I am saying that including story mode for any game where it is feasible is something that should be done. It would be good to do. This is in contrast to this previous statement from you Why would it be good to do?
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Apr 21, 2021 09:57
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Phigs posted:I guess it's possible this argument is over the perception of what "should be done" means. Because I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the "it would be good to do" part of your statement here. If it just doesn't occur to someone to account for accessibility, that is not something to be ashamed about really. It happens all the time. Particularly in board games, there is a difficulty in choosing appropriate colors for game pieces to have the broadest accessibility possible for people with varying types of colorblindness, for example. Although awareness is spreading for stuff like that in board game design, it still goes unaddressed a lot of the time not because of bad intentions, but simply because it isn't on the designer's mind when they are making the game, though it would have been if they were made aware of it, and it would have been easy to address. Vic posted:Why would it be good to do? signalnoise posted:This point is why expansive options are good. For some people, reaction speed is going to be a big deal. For some people, it's just a matter of having appropriate controls. That's why I'm in favor of story mode difficulty. It doesn't cover everything, but it's a simple thing to include that would positively impact many people. There will not be a single solution, which means that in order to solve the problem, multiple solutions will be necessary. Story mode difficulty is a good thing to include in that set of solutions. signalnoise fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 10:00
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JollyBoyJohn posted:No-one is joking about this though we are joking about over entitled baby ragers who think they should just be able to push a button and get the warming glow of satisfaction others had to earn I might be falling for a joke, but I can't tell anymore. If someone plays the game at a lower difficulty than me, it doesn't affect me in any way. I will never even find out about it because I don't talk about what difficulty I play my games at. Tons of games have difficulty settings and their enjoyability is not negatively affected in anyway by the settings.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:00
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lobsterminator posted:I might be falling for a joke, but I can't tell anymore. If someone plays the game at a lower difficulty than me, it doesn't affect me in any way. I mean of course it does, how can you discuss an experience you had with a game only for the person you are having the discussion with to say "oh but i played on tourist mode" without it totally changing the shared experience.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:04
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signalnoise posted:I've ignored this dumb jab for a while now but since you keep making it, I gotta assume that is what you think my position is. I'm definitely not saying that game devs are terrible people for not including story mode. I am saying that including story mode for any game where it is feasible is something that should be done. It would be good to do. This is in contrast to this previous statement from you No my post was making a jab at the fact that you keep conflating "disability" with "being bad at a game" when they are totally not the same thing and even when it's been brought up that even disabled gamers might not want to play on baby mode you continue to insist on pushing your moral high ground
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Apr 21, 2021 10:10
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JollyBoyJohn posted:I mean of course it does, how can you discuss an experience you had with a game only for the person you are having the discussion with to say "oh but i played on tourist mode" without it totally changing the shared experience. Sticking with the From games, just because they're already on the table, I see people gush about the story of Bloodborne more than overcoming challenges. There will be differences in how easy or difficult games are based on skill, experience, and approach, on top of whatever difficulty someone plays on. What I read and hear most when people discuss how good these games are is how the elements of the story are delivered, and the sense of discovery in uncovering bits and pieces of the lore through item descriptions and stuff. If someone is playing on some kind of story mode, they still can have some sense of ~immersion~ about it, as they will still be the one to select an item, read through its description, and over time understand its importance in the game world. The experience of driving that discovery of lore is not dependent on the game's difficulty. Baldur's Gate 1 is a prime example of a game I would tell someone is 100% ok to just play it on story mode with the rerelease version. fridge corn posted:No my post was making a jab at the fact that you keep conflating "disability" with "being bad at a game" when they are totally not the same thing and even when it's been brought up that even disabled gamers might not want to play on baby mode you continue to insist on pushing your moral high ground I'm not conflating it at all, and I'm not suggesting that all disabled gamers would want to play on ~baby mode~. Options are optional, so you don't have to take them, but not having the option means you can't take that option. Options are good to have. This isn't some moral high ground poo poo for dumb internet points or whatever the gently caress. If you can't believe I'm not being disingenuous, then I don't know why you are bothering with me. signalnoise fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 10:12
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Honestly this is the most fun ive had in this thread in a while
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Apr 21, 2021 10:19
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Do you genuinely think I don't have a reason to be seriously invested in this topic or something? Do you think I'm arguing from a position of total ignorance?
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Apr 21, 2021 10:20
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signalnoise posted:Baldur's Gate 1 is a prime example of a game I would tell someone is 100% ok to just play it on story mode with the rerelease version. I finally beat baldurs gate 1 and 2 at the start of lockdown by putting on cheat mode and using the L key on every enemy and instantly ganking them. I had a great time and it was nice to finally experience the story but at the same time it felt shallow and pointless like i hadn't really earned it and tbh i felt a bit dirty
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Apr 21, 2021 10:23
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List of things that would make Sekiro more accessible: - options for additional visual prompts - options for haptics feedback mode related to mechanics (rather than sword hitting things rumble) - options for additional sound cues - option that allows you to quickmash block without having to mash It would also make it easier but that's not the discussion we're having. We'd rather bring people with disabilities into a lovely internet argument while also not actually caring about discussing people with disabilities other than a prop.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:24
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signalnoise posted:Sticking with the From games, just because they're already on the table, I see people gush about the story of Bloodborne more than overcoming challenges. There will be differences in how easy or difficult games are based on skill, experience, and approach, on top of whatever difficulty someone plays on. What I read and hear most when people discuss how good these games are is how the elements of the story are delivered, and the sense of discovery in uncovering bits and pieces of the lore through item descriptions and stuff. If someone is playing on some kind of story mode, they still can have some sense of ~immersion~ about it, as they will still be the one to select an item, read through its description, and over time understand its importance in the game world. The experience of driving that discovery of lore is not dependent on the game's difficulty. I beat bloodborne summoning for almost every boss and I'm happy to concede i didn't actually beat it in comparison to someone who beat it without help
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Apr 21, 2021 10:25
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Also signalnoise, after our beloved games forum mod VideoGames wraps up his playthrough of Dark Souls 3 on friday, he will be streaming Sekiro hopefully starting on Sunday. He's been streaming his blind playthroughs of all the From games and it's been a joy to behold. You are welcome to join us as aside from playing them yourself, watching someone play for the first time is the best way to understand what makes these games truly special.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:25
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JollyBoyJohn posted:I finally beat baldurs gate 1 and 2 at the start of lockdown by putting on cheat mode and using the L key on every enemy and instantly ganking them. I had a great time and it was nice to finally experience the story but at the same time it felt shallow and pointless like i hadn't really earned it and tbh i felt a bit dirty It's also 100% ok to play on the harder difficulties if you feel like it. I slammed my nuts in the sliding glass door of Horizon Zero Dawn's hardest difficulty all the way through the DLC because I am some kind of broken I guess, but you know, there's story mode and there's bullshit mode, take your pick. fridge corn posted:Also signalnoise, after our beloved games forum mod VideoGames wraps up his playthrough of Dark Souls 3 on friday, he will be streaming Sekiro hopefully starting on Sunday. He's been streaming his blind playthroughs of all the From games and it's been a joy to behold. You are welcome to join us as aside from playing them yourself, watching someone play for the first time is the best way to understand what makes these games truly special. I beat that game already, I am not the ragebaby you were deriding. I am genuinely just wanting more options for more people.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:25
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signalnoise posted:It's also 100% ok to play on the harder difficulties if you feel like it. I slammed my nuts in the sliding glass door of Horizon Zero Dawn's hardest difficulty all the way through the DLC because I am some kind of broken I guess, but you know, there's story mode and there's bullshit mode, take your pick. Just for comparison i slammed horizon down to very easy at the start and had a great time. Very much struck me as the type of game where a higher difficult just artificially inflated the games length
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Apr 21, 2021 10:28
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The best video games are ones I finish, so Sekiro which I have never started because Bloodborne sucked is infinitely a worse game than Wacky Races for the Dreamcast
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Apr 21, 2021 10:33
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JollyBoyJohn posted:Just for comparison i slammed horizon down to very easy at the start and had a great time. Very much struck me as the type of game where a higher difficult just artificially inflated the games length It did to some degree, by making me die a lot. The hardest difficulty locks autoaim to off, so you have to be precise with every shot. I went through the DLC without going back to restock on ammo, so by the end of the DLC I was just questioning how much more there was. It also increased the amount of armor on some stuff if I remember correctly, so I had to fight three of the ice bear things at once and because I couldn't go back to town for more ammo, I had to take down all three by shooting into a tiny area of exposed freeze liquid stuff, because it had way more armor than usual, and there was a lot of hiding in some cave they couldn't get to just to get my health back. For the last boss I had to jump aim for slow motion to hit the shock packs on its back while making sure not to hit more than one at a time, and then maximize every loving one because if I hosed up and hit an armor plate, that shot was 100% worthless. It took a long time and because I had already beaten the game before, and there wasn't anything harder to do in the game after the DLC, I just hung it up.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:36
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Plus we've already seen what AAA Devs think making games more accessible looks like and it is awful, Dark Souls was praised for being the first big game in forever that doesn't desperately drag you to the credits asap Mostly it's because of the game's slow-burn understated narrative, in a world with branching paths and no map. Not necessarily becasue of its difficulty.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:40
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Vic posted:List of things that would make Sekiro more accessible: In general more games need to adopt a difficultly menu of options rather then just 3-4 different modes. Being able to enable/disable things like visual cues, UI tips, scaling damage, etc. go a long way to making the game play more engaging for the person playing it as well as letting people make the game as easy or hard as they want. You can't tell me if there was a PC damage taken slider in Sekiro you wouldn't have tons people trying to play the game at 300% increased damage mode for the sake of the challenge. It's 2021, I don't think games need to still have their difficulty modifiers to 2-3 preset settings and nothing else. There's no shortage of stories about how difficulty modes end up completely hosed because things weren't scaled properly. Make the factory defaults or "intended" settings and then have a whole menu of things to pick and choose.
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Apr 21, 2021 10:44
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They shouldn't make from games more accessible because that might trick people into playing bad games
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Apr 21, 2021 10:48
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pentyne posted:In general more games need to adopt a difficultly menu of options rather then just 3-4 different modes. Being able to enable/disable things like visual cues, UI tips, scaling damage, etc. go a long way to making the game play more engaging for the person playing it as well as letting people make the game as easy or hard as they want. You can't tell me if there was a PC damage taken slider in Sekiro you wouldn't have tons people trying to play the game at 300% increased damage mode for the sake of the challenge. It's be great if more games went that route, but lots of developers can't even be bothered to make their games' HUD modular, let alone the difficulty settings. Besides Control and PoE (1 and 2) I can't recall anything recent with customizable difficulty setting. Quote-Unquote posted:They shouldn't make from games more accessible because that might trick people into playing bad games 
itry fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 10:49
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The thing is about 'just give the enemies half health' style difficulty settings is that those have already been a thing for literal decades and they are extremely bad Modern game difficulties is a test to see which is the actual intended experience that won't either make everything a damage sponge or remove literally all challenge except when the game suddenly doesn't rely on damage sponges
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Apr 21, 2021 10:51
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signalnoise posted:I beat that game already, I am not the ragebaby you were deriding. I am genuinely just wanting more options for more people. Well had me fooled. Quote-Unquote posted:They shouldn't make from games more accessible because that might trick people into playing bad games Ka-BOOM
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Apr 21, 2021 10:59
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Vic posted:List of things that would make Sekiro more accessible: My argument isn't specific to Sekiro, but it is specific to a difficulty option that would be simple to implement and beneficial. All those options you listed would be great, and will affect different people to different degrees, while also requiring significantly more awareness from the developer. In addition to the simple option of an easy mode, I also agree that the level of awareness required for the options you listed should be achieved by any AAA budget game. Currently, each game will have its own unique set of stuff to make it more accessible, whereas a story mode difficulty is broadly applicable. I would like to see this eventually get to a point of having an expected set of such options, with best practices dictating some conventions of how they are implemented, not only for some empirical background of them working well, but also so they can be familiar to people as they experience them in new games, just like UX is treated more broadly right now. You think I'm using people with disabilities as a prop, and I respect that you care. However, you've got that wrong about where this is coming from. I didn't go into a list of things for Sekiro specifically because that would be tangential, given that the topic was difficulty settings and the appropriateness of easier difficulties for games. It's my opinion that all games should have a story mode difficulty if it is at all feasible. This is a very low bar, in my opinion, and more should be done on top of that. Maybe you think I'm posturing, not personally invested in this topic, or just looking for some kind of moral dunk. If so, you've got that wrong, but I'd prefer not to go into some life story poo poo about me personally.
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Apr 21, 2021 11:00
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pentyne posted:In general more games need to adopt a difficultly menu of options rather then just 3-4 different modes. Being able to enable/disable things like visual cues, UI tips, scaling damage, etc. go a long way to making the game play more engaging for the person playing it as well as letting people make the game as easy or hard as they want. You can't tell me if there was a PC damage taken slider in Sekiro you wouldn't have tons people trying to play the game at 300% increased damage mode for the sake of the challenge. Sekiro does have increased difficulty options built into the game with charmless runs, the demon bell, ng++++++++ It just doesn't have any option to make the game easier 
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Apr 21, 2021 11:01
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Like this whole discussion pretty much is solely about sekiro/fromsoft cuz I cant actually think of any other game that doesn't already have a "you literally cannot die in this mode" difficulty mode
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Apr 21, 2021 11:04
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Danganronpa was the last game I played where I had to turn the difficult down.
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Apr 21, 2021 11:07
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Redezga posted:Danganronpa was the last game I played where I had to turn the difficult down. I didn't beat that game because I have had experiences that made the subject matter extremely uncomfortable for me but on the other hand, the devs should not be fired into the sun for making it and people can like it if they like it
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Apr 21, 2021 11:09
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signalnoise posted:I didn't beat that game because I have had experiences that made the subject matter extremely uncomfortable for me but on the other hand, the devs should not be fired into the sun for making it and people can like it if they like it I don't know if it could really be considered a spoiler, but the impression I had by the end of the series (so far) is even the series creator was a bit uncomfortable with how much some of the fanbase was into the premise.
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Apr 21, 2021 11:12
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I don't like difficulty settings in games or indeed any gameplay settings because I don't want to do some game designer's job for them YOU figure out how much damage this enemy's gun is supposed to do, what the gently caress are you getting paid for, I'm not the professional here
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Apr 21, 2021 11:13
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