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Paracaidas posted:That the officer believed that his most professionally responsible course of action was to immediately gun down a child is probably the most damning indictment I can imagine, short of defending him by declaring all other courses of action improbable and unrealistic. Could you tell me how this defense of a childkiller relates to the Chauvin trial? Or has this become the catchall youth murder squad apologia thread now that the verdict is in? It doesn't relate to it at all as the situations are completely different. Chauvin murdered a man in cold blood by kneeling on his neck till he died and has been rightly convicted. The girl in the video was shot whilst trying to stab someone. Different things. If someone had used force on Chauvin to save Floyd I'd applaud them.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:49
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Kavros posted:cops simply make it very wise to want to pull out the fine-tooth comb and pour over every available detail that even remotely suggests the police could be in the wrong, in any situation in which it might be possible that the cop was not entirely in the wrong. We should do this even if there weren't systematic issues. Any time lethal force is used, it should be investigated. Except maybe in an active war zone where its not possible.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:49
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Pablo Nergigante posted:I dunno why nobody responded to this but it's 100% correct I'd like to again ask that we move conversations about the killing of Ma'Khia Bryant into either a new thread or an existing thread for which it is a better fit. While the verdicts have been handed down in Chauvin's trial, the thread's topic remains relevant with both appeals and sentencing to come, and with considerable analysis to come on defense and prosecution strategy and what this may mean in other cases. The current discussion is entirely unrelated to Chauvin unless aggregated into a broader pattern in which case, again, it should not be here. If conversation continues this afternoon and one hasn't yet been created, I will do so myself. I suspect that my OP would be objectionable to many who have posted here thus far, though, so I strongly recommend someone else jump on that particular grenade.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:50
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Kavros posted:cops simply make it very wise to want to pull out the fine-tooth comb and pour over every available detail that even remotely suggests the police could be in the wrong, in any situation in which it might be possible that the cop was not entirely in the wrong. I agree with this, they deserve absolutely no benefit of the doubt and it's institutionally their own drat fault and I don't care if it's not fair. Call it the boy who cried wolf effect or whatever.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:52
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Paracaidas posted:Thank you for this, can occasionally feel like posting into the ether. I don't have it in me to make a general Police Violence thread myself, but I'd certainly appreciate somebody doing it.
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Apr 21, 2021 19:54
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Kalit posted:He was literally drawing his gun when she ran right by him. If he had grabbed her instead of drawing his gun, it could have been avoided. I queued up this video so you can see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjf-6xcjkbA&t=60s
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Apr 21, 2021 19:58
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NoDamage posted:After watching the clip I am surprised there isn't more discussion about why the cop opened fire when there were several other people close by. Police gun accuracy in stressful situations is notoriously low, he could have just as easily hit the girl he was trying to save, or the other girl on the left. I don't think he was justified in opening fire in this situation based solely on the risk of accidentally hitting someone else. because cops are trained to shoot first, always, regardless of consequences, which is a huge part of why cops murder people. i've done active shooter training where police have said point blank that if there is an active shooter they will open fire indiscriminately and if you get shot while cowering on the floor (or lying wounded) that its just an unfortunate side effect (and also that they will not provide any sort of first aid because its not their job)
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Apr 21, 2021 19:59
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NoDamage posted:After watching the clip I am surprised there isn't more discussion about why the cop opened fire when there were several other people close by. Police gun accuracy in stressful situations is notoriously low, he could have just as easily hit the girl he was trying to save, or the other girl on the left. I don't think he was justified in opening fire in this situation based solely on the risk of accidentally hitting someone else. I think we went down a discussion rabbit hole. It was brought up before and I agree that, all other facts withstanding, the proximity the bystander makes lethal force suss. But I don't have enough of a background to know if my feelings on the matter are accurate.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:00
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ryde posted:I think we went down a discussion rabbit hole. It was brought up before and I agree that, all other facts withstanding, the proximity the bystander makes lethal force suss. But I don't have enough of a background to know if my feelings on the matter are accurate. cops routinely shoot innocent bystanders and each other. remember this? quote:NEW YORK - All nine people injured during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were wounded by gunfire from the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence. they hit nine bystanders. the cops faced no consequences.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:01
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NoDamage posted:After watching the clip I am surprised there isn't more discussion about why the cop opened fire when there were several other people close by. Police gun accuracy in stressful situations is notoriously low, he could have just as easily hit the girl he was trying to save, or the other girl on the left. I don't think he was justified in opening fire in this situation based solely on the risk of accidentally hitting someone else. That's really hard to assess because it's basically down to the individual cop's firearms competence when weighing risk of taking the shot versus risk of her getting stabbed. The risk of getting stabbed seemed pretty 100% and the cop seems to have fired in a controlled manner with all four shots being on target so what little available evidence we have, while definitively not conclusive, appears to indicate the cop judged his ability to not hit bystanders correctly. Which is, quite frankly, loving shocking, because typically cops can't seem to be able to do anything but mag dump and hit everything but their target.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:05
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HonorableTB posted:This discussion is a great example of what happens when your strongly held beliefs are so strongly held that they overpower your ability to consume and analyze evidence that isn't compatible with those beliefs. Congrats, you've unlocked the secret to how chuds continue to justify everything cops and trump do because this is the leftist version of "who are you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?" when there's video evidence of an attempted murder right there in front of you, and we reached that point when SchnorkIes argued that a black girl getting murdered by another black girl is somehow preferable to the attacker getting shot and the victim being saved because it was a cop that intervened To take it even further than the notion that we have people who would rather murder victims die at the hands of murderers than cops save them by using lethal force on said murderers to save the murderers over the murder victims, which is a shockingly bad take. But we’ve got people who can’t even bring themselves to watch a video of an event trying to claim they have any moral or intelligent authority about what people who are actively putting themselves into the situations should do. I would utterly adore to see how some posters who are criticising the police officer perform in the same scenario in comparison. It would be hilarious, hence my offer to demonstrate how daft they are with sharpie pens. They do such a disservice to the credibility of criticising the police it’s no wonder that despite the mountain of evidence George Floyds killer was guilty, there was doubt, because the loudest critics are utterly delusional when it comes to how the police should behave.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:06
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Jarmak posted:That's really hard to assess because it's basically down to the individual cop's firearms competence when weighing risk of taking the shot versus risk of her getting stabbed. The risk of getting stabbed seemed pretty 100% and the cop seems to have fired in a controlled manner with all four shots being on target so what little available evidence we have, while definitively not conclusive, appears to indicate the cop judged his ability to not hit bystanders correctly. i think it is far more likely that the cop was aware that if he hit bystanders he would face no consequences so why not just indiscriminately fire into crowded areas and this time got lucky that he didn't
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Apr 21, 2021 20:06
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willie_dee posted:I would utterly adore to see how some posters who are criticising the police officer perform in the same scenario in comparison. It would be hilarious, hence my offer to demonstrate how daft they are with sharpie pens. This is a ridiculous standard quote:They do such a disservice to the credibility of criticising the police it’s no wonder that despite the mountain of evidence George Floyds killer was guilty, there was doubt, because the loudest critics are utterly delusional when it comes to how the police should behave. So it’s police critics’ fault for people defending the police at all cost?
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Apr 21, 2021 20:09
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Owlspiracy posted:i think it is far more likely that the cop was aware that if he hit bystanders he would face no consequences so why not just indiscriminately fire into crowded areas and this time got lucky that he didn't Four rounds is about within the margin of error for the minimum amount of time for someone under stress to shoot to stop a threat, process the threat has stopped, and stop shooting. What little evidence we have on hand points to us having run across the rare cop that actually has good firearms training.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:11
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In other countries, how are situations like this handled? I genuinely have no frame of reference after years of coproganda, and as a result, the police officer opening fire on an person assaulting someone while holding a knife seems like the only option to me.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:14
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Famethrowa posted:In other countries, how are situations like this handled? I genuinely have no frame of reference after years of coproganda, and as a result, the police officer opening fire on an person assaulting someone while holding a knife seems like the only option to me. In the specific situation in the video? They shoot if they have a gun. Even in countries like Sweden with generally "good" cops, the policy is to shoot someone actively attacking with a knife (because the knife is pretty much as deadly as the gun if it does connect). If someone's only holding it, which is the usual situation, it's verbal de-escalation, and then pepper spray and batons if that doesn't work (which it usually does). Rarely if ever shooting. edit: "Actively being attacked with a knife" is the specific situation our police use as an example for when a gun will actually be used. Thoughtless fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 20:18
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Pablo Nergigante posted:This is a ridiculous standard The standards that are being suggested in this very thread involve officers being knife proof and beyond black belt level bjj skills (Gracies themselves have said how it’s impossible to restrain someone without hurting them in any way shape or form), able to make split second assessments of threats and have voiced that can magically convince people to obey instructions from an authority. I think if the posters suggesting this realised how utterly useless they would be in the situation, and how they would more than likely make things horrendously worse, they may appreciate their criticism, when they can’t even bring themselves to watch a video of violence, is. Pablo Nergigante posted:
I didn’t say that. I’m saying it’s the most vocal delusional police critics who are utterly void of any logic or practical knowledge of self defence situations make it very very easy for police boot lickers to defend the police from criticism.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:20
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willie_dee posted:To take it even further than the notion that we have people who would rather murder victims die at the hands of murderers than cops save them by using lethal force on said murderers to save the murderers over the murder victims, which is a shockingly bad take. It might be shocking but it starts to make sense when you really think about it. If Makiah Bryant had murdered that girl in pink almost no one would have cared about this case because death, disfunction and violence are expected in black communities. Earlier in the thread I posted about similar cases where one teen girl knifes another to death, and no one gave a poo poo about those cases because it happens away from their safe/white communities and they can just chalk it up as more poor people violence statistics. This is a case where the state intervened and prevented an attempted murder and so many people are trying their very hardest to justify their beliefs rather than looking at the evidence. There was a BLM activist on twitter who said something along the lines of "knife fighting is a typical teen thing and cops shouldn't have intervened". Pretty much exactly what that other poster ITT said earlier. They would rather watch black death and disfunction play out than have their beliefs challenged. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2021 20:23
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It occurs to me that, regardless of the facts involved in this specific case, if officers only very rarely used deadly force, they'd probably be getting a lot more benefit of the doubt when they do. This situation is certainly less clear-cut than a lot of others, and it's the sort of thing that, if not for the ongoing stories of police violence against Black people, would probably be met with a reaction of "wow, how tragic a situation. We should fully investigate it and see if we can learn from it to prevent it in the future."
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Apr 21, 2021 20:27
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Famethrowa posted:In other countries, how are situations like this handled? I genuinely have no frame of reference after years of coproganda, and as a result, the police officer opening fire on an person assaulting someone while holding a knife seems like the only option to me. Shoot reactively in self defence or defence of others? Center mass, multiple times. Shoot proactively in not immediate threat? Leg or lower limb aimed shot in lots of european countries. Knifeman walking towards you and you start running out of room and space? Leg shot. Knifeman charging at someone? Center mass. She’d pretty much get the same treatment in most european countries too except britain where they’d face no firearms. If the firearm equipped cops of britain would be there, she’d probably get shot.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:33
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Clarste posted:"Protect and Serve" is just a motto and has nothing to do with their job description or professional duties. That was also determined in a court case. I'm not a lawyer but I think this is a bit of a misrepresentation. Courts have ruled that police don't have a obligation to any specific individual in any circumstance, but instead have an obligation to the public at large. Essentially they can't be sued for failing to prevent every single crime that occurs in their jurisdiction. Instead there needs to be some sort of circumstance to create an obligation between the police and a specific person.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:33
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https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1384871734764003335 in less horrible news. it sounds like the DOJ may clean house on chauvins pig pen.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:35
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Jarmak posted:That's really hard to assess because it's basically down to the individual cop's firearms competence when weighing risk of taking the shot versus risk of her getting stabbed. The risk of getting stabbed seemed pretty 100% and the cop seems to have fired in a controlled manner with all four shots being on target so what little available evidence we have, while definitively not conclusive, appears to indicate the cop judged his ability to not hit bystanders correctly.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:35
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Now that she's been shot to death by cops, a lot of people are suddenly very comfortable deciding that the child who called the police because she thought she was in danger was going to murder someone. It's... odd (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 20:35
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AKA Pseudonym posted:I'm not a lawyer but I think this is a bit of a misrepresentation. Courts have ruled that police don't have a obligation to any specific individual in any circumstance, but instead have an obligation to the public at large. Essentially they can't be sued for failing to prevent every single crime that occurs in their jurisdiction. Instead there needs to be some sort of circumstance to create an obligation between the police and a specific person. Yeah and it keeps trotted out repeatedly. Cops are lovely no doubt, but they have no duty towards an individual, same as fire service doesn’t. It’s a misreading of the court case, and basically every country has the same standard to the police.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:37
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NoDamage posted:Of course we know in hindsight that he managed to only shoot his intended target, but I don't think we should be leaving it to cops to self-evaluate their own aim in these types of situations. I can't help but think a taser would have been more appropriate here. Sure, it might not be as reliable, but you have to balance that against the risk of accidentally shooting and killing the wrong person. Taser would of much more likely resulted in the death of the girl in pink. The officer made the correct judgment, saved the girl in pinks life and questioning his shooting ability after he’s proven he has the skills in that situation is daft. The response time to a girl saying she is being threatened with a knife massively needs looking into, as does the foster families utter failure to control the child including kicking someone in the head rather than attempting to control their child who is attempting to stab people, resulting in her death.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:46
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Harold Fjord posted:Now that she's been shot to death by cops, a lot of people are suddenly very comfortable deciding that the child who called the police because she thought she was in danger was going to murder someone. It's... odd The video literally shows her trying to murder someone. Its not odd.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:50
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Harold Fjord posted:Now that she's been shot to death by cops, a lot of people are suddenly very comfortable deciding that the child who called the police because she thought she was in danger was going to murder someone. It's... odd I imagine the real sticking point in the days to come will be why it took so long for the police to arrive to the scene. Had the police arrived in time to deescalate, would Ma'Khia have felt pressured to pull a knife on those who were antagonizing her? Instead the cops arrive late to the scene scene at the highest possible boiling point and are pushed into a scenario that narrowed their options to deadly force or risking harm through inaction. It's an obscene loving tragedy. Ma'Khia should not have died.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:52
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There's a lot of space for discussion on this topic. But saying that Ma'Khia was not attempting murder when trying to stab a girl who, regardless whether she was aggressive before, was not aggressive at the time of the incident is a real "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" moment.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:56
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willie_dee posted:Taser would of much more likely resulted in the death of the girl in pink. quote:The officer made the correct judgment, saved the girl in pinks life and questioning his shooting ability after he’s proven he has the skills in that situation is daft. NoDamage fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 20:56
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Harold Fjord posted:Now that she's been shot to death by cops, a lot of people are suddenly very comfortable deciding that the child who called the police because she thought she was in danger was going to murder someone. It's... odd It's really not that odd some people get brave the instant the cops show up. They think they can get an attack in and the cops will stop the fight before their victim can fight back so they won't get hurt.
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Apr 21, 2021 20:59
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Morningwoodpecker posted:It's really not that odd some people get brave the instant the cops show up. They think they can get an attack in and the cops will stop the fight before their victim can fight back so they won't get hurt. I'd almost wondered if the cops showing up is what actually set it off. Either as you described or like the conversation got more heated because someone was mad the cops were called.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:02
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Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticismMorningwoodpecker posted:It's really not that odd some people get brave the instant the cops show up. They think they can get an attack in and the cops will stop the fight before their victim can fight back so they won't get hurt. yeah she probably thought she could just knife the other girl to death and then the cops would break it up. 
Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Apr 21, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2021 21:04
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Harold Fjord posted:Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticism Did you watch the video?
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Apr 21, 2021 21:07
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Harold Fjord posted:Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticism Regardless of what you personally believe the facts are that Makiah was charging at a girl who was holding a dog in her arms while cowering in fear against a car. Makiah had her arm pulled back ready for an underhand swing at her neck. Pretty clear attempted murder.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:09
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Famethrowa posted:I imagine the real sticking point in the days to come will be why it took so long for the police to arrive to the scene. Had the police arrived in time to deescalate, would Ma'Khia have felt pressured to pull a knife on those who were antagonizing her? the other issue/tragedy is he was only given the "girl with knife" call from what it sounds like. he got one side of the story. wilderthanmild posted:I'd almost wondered if the cops showing up is what actually set it off. Either as you described or like the conversation got more heated because someone was mad the cops were called. maybe. its clear a fight is either getting worse or ending when he arrives. Vorik posted:Regardless of what you personally believe the facts are that Makiah was charging at a girl who was holding a dog in her arms while cowering in fear against a car. Makiah had her arm pulled back ready for an underhand swing at her neck. Pretty clear attempted murder. i didnt see the dog until after the shots where its wandering around.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:11
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i didnt see the dog until after the shots where its wandering around. It's easy to miss but yeah she had the dog in her arms during the attack. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpIOWBgQy1Q @ 0:16
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Apr 21, 2021 21:14
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Harold Fjord posted:Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticism It would be helpful if you described what you saw happen in the body cam video, preferably step by step. If you do this, along with possible reasons for who in the video was reacting in what way (e.g. someone doing something off camera, what happened beforehand, other viewpoints that this video does not capture, etc), I think that would help out others, including myself, see your point of view a little bit better.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:15
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Harold Fjord posted:Murder has a pretty specific meaning that probably doesn't apply to a child who was being threatened and everyone is real quick to decide, based on video released by the cops to protect themselves, that she wasn't actually threatened but was the aggressor and had it coming because she was about to become a violent murderess. Please forgive my skepticism Yes, forgive us, as it turns out, the girl in pink deserved to be stabbed to death. What were we thinking? The cop should have known this.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:16
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I'm curious as to the source of these "Tasers are unreliable/not useful in these situations" arguments, because it seems to me tasers wouldn't be issued at all if they are rendered inert by their target being overly angry or wearing clothing. That said, this was an absolute tragedy. The shooter should not have pulled his gun; he probably saved that girl in pink's life, but he also endangered it by firing in her direction.
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Apr 21, 2021 21:20
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