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sexpig by night posted:yea Ran'jit's thing was a real low point of a fantastic expansion. He was a really just...weak character, both story and power wise, dude never did anything interesting or expanded on the breadcrumbs and even in canon his attacks were more 'okay WoL stand between Rayne and him because he can totally take her but you just will shove him back like a toddler trying to run at you'. He would have had greater sale if he had clearly been labelled "WARRIOR OF LIGHT" or something, but I understand they probably didn't want to do that, for the reasons that only became apparent later.
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Apr 23, 2021 04:45
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Cleretic posted:*Except for 2P, I haven't tallied up the numbers on that fight. But I think it maxes out at about five at once, so even that still comes pretty close to 'about four times as strong as one (1) WoL'. 2P is a copy of a killer robot from the future worth about half-a-billion space bucks in hyper-advanced bleeding-edge military-grade weapons parts to be fair Nessus posted:I think we're getting stronger but it's not like Dragonball stronger. It's like "we had another amazing adventure" stronger. Like if we run into someone on the Moon who pulls out their big reveal that they have the ancient art of Gu-Ku-Matsu and produces a dragon buddy we can immediately grin because we know this move. Here's what I think about Hydaelyn: She was summoned with one purpose - check Zodiark. That's basically been the state of things ever since the Sundering, with Her just pulling strings to gently caress with the Ascians that are trying to bring Him back. Zenos successfully bringing about a total manifestation of Zodiark might trigger Her reawakening, and She only knows how to do one thing.
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Apr 23, 2021 04:45
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I just want to know what happened to Ran'jit's body. It disappeared after the last fight in Eulmore and I was half expecting him to show up again during the Eden raid series or the Shadowkeeper follow-up quests, but no. He's just gone.
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Apr 23, 2021 04:47
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Thancred should have died.
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Apr 23, 2021 04:48
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Chillgamesh posted:Here's what I think about Hydaelyn: She was summoned with one purpose - check Zodiark. That's basically been the state of things ever since the Sundering, with Her just pulling strings to gently caress with the Ascians that are trying to bring Him back. Zenos successfully bringing about a total manifestation of Zodiark might trigger Her reawakening, and She only knows how to do one thing. That said she does seem to have a woobie-bear personality outside of stomping Zodiark, but this is consistent with Ramuh, Alexander, Ravana, etc. Primals may get summoned for a singular purpose but they all seem to be, at least sort of, people. Except Bismarck, but maybe he has a rich and complex inner life that only the Vanu Vanu can comprehend.
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Apr 23, 2021 04:55
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the entire point of the Omega raid series is a fighting robot trying to understand the source of our inexplicable power
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Apr 23, 2021 05:01
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:I just want to know what happened to Ran'jit's body. It disappeared after the last fight in Eulmore and I was half expecting him to show up again during the Eden raid series or the Shadowkeeper follow-up quests, but no. He's just gone. Probably decomposed. As dead bodies do.
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Apr 23, 2021 05:04
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Elidibus explicitly states that we're growing stronger after every fight and it's to a monstrous level. Also, except for a couple exceptions (Hades and Elidibus trials, trust dungeons) we canonically solo everything. Hell, in this latest patch it's mentioned that the weak point in plan 'send in the WoL to fight an army' isn't that we're not capable of it, but that eventually we'd get tired and overwhelmed through sheer numbers
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Apr 23, 2021 05:04
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Eopia posted:Elidibus explicitly states that we're growing stronger after every fight and it's to a monstrous level. Also, except for a couple exceptions (Hades and Elidibus trials, trust dungeons) we canonically solo everything.
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Apr 23, 2021 05:15
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I mean, I was level 1 when I started the adventure and I'm level 80 now. The numbers don't lie and they spell disaster for you on the moon, Zenos.
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Apr 23, 2021 05:19
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:I just want to know what happened to Ran'jit's body. It disappeared after the last fight in Eulmore and I was half expecting him to show up again during the Eden raid series or the Shadowkeeper follow-up quests, but no. He's just gone. Next time the MSQ brings us back to the 1st 100 years have passed, Ranjit has turned Stillwater into a supreme military force and has killed every NPC you knew and loved.
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Apr 23, 2021 05:21
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derra posted:Next time the MSQ brings us back to the 1st 100 years have passed, Ranjit has turned Stillwater into a supreme military force and has killed every NPC you knew and loved. Can I bring Graha back to the first to get wrecked too?
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Apr 23, 2021 05:28
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:I just want to know what happened to Ran'jit's body. It disappeared after the last fight in Eulmore and I was half expecting him to show up again during the Eden raid series or the Shadowkeeper follow-up quests, but no. He's just gone. I always thought that was a really blatant plot hook for future story, that then just... never came. I expected him to be an antagonist in the patches, or maybe to appear in the Eden raids (beyond being called back to in a boss design). I wonder if there was something planned but cancelled. Maybe he was written out because he wasn't as popular as expected, or the voice actor was hard to get in for the patches or something. Or maybe he's waiting in the wings to be the new melee DPS questline contact, since he's the only person in the game dumb enough to already think scythes are a melee weapon.
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Apr 23, 2021 06:10
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:I just want to know what happened to Ran'jit's body. It disappeared after the last fight in Eulmore and I was half expecting him to show up again during the Eden raid series or the Shadowkeeper follow-up quests, but no. He's just gone. Eulmore's soldiers found his body and cleaned it up, this was in the MSQ.
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Apr 23, 2021 06:20
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sexpig by night posted:yea Ran'jit's thing was a real low point of a fantastic expansion. He was a really just...weak character, both story and power wise, dude never did anything interesting or expanded on the breadcrumbs and even in canon his attacks were more 'okay WoL stand between Rayne and him because he can totally take her but you just will shove him back like a toddler trying to run at you'. I felt they were trying to do two things with Ran’jit. On one hand, provide a contrast to Thancred’s relationship with Ryne, which Ran’jit’s strength doesn’t particularly factor into. On the other hand, a key point in setting the First’s atmosphere of stagnation through despair is that it was an inability to fight that was the issue, rather than any particular lack of strength. Having someone who can match or beat the WoL but still have no chance against the Lightwardens in theory demonstrates it. On the other hand, it’s not really a point that needs demonstrating (it’s basically the well-established primal problem), and it was made more effectively with Holminster Switch, the second assault on Lakeland, Il Mheg, Tesleen,... The message is strongly and consistently delivered that there’s never really a moment where we draw in our breath as we realise that Ran’jit, despite this overwhelming strength, is still utterly helpless against the sin eaters. Conversely, only Ran’jit can fill the necessary role in the Thancred-Ryne relationship, so that’s where most of his development ends up. And since his strength isn’t really core to that, it ends up feeling a bit gratuitous.
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Apr 23, 2021 07:06
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His asskicking ability was, I thought, an important element indirectly -- part of why he was completely OK with them jugging up Ryne and all was because he had been seeing a series of young Minfiliae using their oracular powers to help and protect people and, inevitably, being killed by the sin eaters one way or another. And he had seen it all because he was the general of Eulmore's army, and until about 20 years prior Eulmore were actually fighting to protect Norvrandt. However, he could have just been a, you know, general general, like Aymeric.
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Apr 23, 2021 08:18
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i dont get why people get like mad or offended when you lose a fight in the narrative. like, for me its just 'ah ok the games doing a thing, gotcha', but some people take it as a personal attack or some poo poo
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Apr 23, 2021 08:22
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Farg posted:i dont get why people get like mad or offended when you lose a fight in the narrative. like, for me its just 'ah ok the games doing a thing, gotcha', but some people take it as a personal attack or some poo poo Its because I was a Paladin and could've worn him down without the plot attack happening.
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Apr 23, 2021 08:27
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they should put enemy limit break bars into those fights so you know from the beginning it's timed instead of it feeling like it comes from nowhere
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Apr 23, 2021 08:31
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I canonically die in almost every fight so it makes sense that I took an L when there was no one there to rez me.
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Apr 23, 2021 08:32
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I only mind forced fight-losing if it feels like total bullshit, but I think my views on what is total bullshit differ from others. I hated Zenos because he felt like a grand old boring waste of time who just won fights because he did; he had some serious 'the writer's pet Mary Sue' vibes to him (and to be honest, kinda still does). Whereas Ran'jit and situations like in Bozja I was much happier with, because the forced losses still felt like they had some body to it; things happened other than 'the bad guy wins and undoes your progress', and the opponents felt like they had some actual strengths and curveballs to their technique. I can look at the power they're packing or the situation they're exploiting and go 'oh okay, I see exactly why I couldn't have won that'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 08:59
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Farg posted:i dont get why people get like mad or offended when you lose a fight in the narrative. like, for me its just 'ah ok the games doing a thing, gotcha', but some people take it as a personal attack or some poo poo For Ran'jit, though, it's not just that "he beat the WoL", he beats everything until the last two solo duties -- pixies, Fanow, the Ronkan temple. He essentially no-sells pretty much every significant force we come across in the First. And despite all this, as others have pointed out, he actually loses at every turn! There are many characters that are weakened in order to make Ran'jit look strong, and there's no narrative payout for all that build-up.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:20
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Cleretic posted:I only mind forced fight-losing if it feels like total bullshit, but I think my views on what is total bullshit differ from others. I hated Zenos because he felt like a grand old boring waste of time who just won fights because he did; he had some serious 'the writer's pet Mary Sue' vibes to him (and to be honest, kinda still does). The cloest narrative match to Zenos is Beatrix, who also just decides to end the fight by using 1% of their real power and killing you in one shot and nobody ever complains about her. The game is allowed to have other strong guys who can hit you back (and heck, it's much more interesting than the WoL being an unstoppable force who barrels over any oppositon inside a single trial), the story doesn't need to lay out charts and formulas explaining why an antagonist is credibly stronger than you, it's a big world and there can always be a bigger fish.
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Apr 23, 2021 09:38
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Who?
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Apr 23, 2021 09:39
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multijoe posted:The cloest narrative match to Zenos is Beatrix, who also just decides to end the fight by using 1% of their real power and killing you in one shot and nobody ever complains about her. The game is allowed to have other strong guys who can hit you back (and heck, it's much more interesting than the WoL being an unstoppable force who barrels over any oppositon inside a single trial), the story doesn't need to lay out charts and formulas explaining why an antagonist is credibly stronger than you, it's a big world and there can always be a bigger fish. Actually I've seen plenty of people complain about Beatrix doing exactly that. I think I personally mind her less because she's... well, an interesting character, as opposed to Zenos who is a bland fight rear end in a top hat. But I don't have a high bar for 'it makes sense why I lost that fight'. I literally just want them to have an interesting reason that takes longer to say than 'had bigger muscles'. Ran'jit? 'Fighting style I've never seen before and have no concept of the limits of', that's great! Misija? 'Pulled a primal out of nowhere in a crowded room', then next patch 'distinct field advantage and very close-by reinforcements', I have no complaints! Hell, Emet-Selch? 'Took advantage of everyone else watching a dramatic sacrifice to shoot the guy in the back', I may have hated the rest of that scene but I can't argue with the entrance. But Zenos? 'Has bigger muscles'. That's not interesting, and it's not enough for me to leave that fight satisfied and interested in a rematch.
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Apr 23, 2021 10:01
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ranjit exists to be the ticking clock in the storyline moving us from zone to zone also i dont get why people keep talking about human limits when there are no humans in ff14 and everyone is made out of aether - maybe there isn't an upper limit on individual strength?
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Apr 23, 2021 12:57
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Cleretic posted:Actually I've seen plenty of people complain about Beatrix doing exactly that. I think I personally mind her less because she's... well, an interesting character, as opposed to Zenos who is a bland fight rear end in a top hat. Zenos is molded by a eugenic might-makes-right society and is depicted as exceptionally powerful, brutal, and selfish even for their standards. He put 11 points into Fight where the WoL put 7 in Fight and 3 in Love. He also has a connection to the Ascians the nature of which is not yet known, but possibly derives from an activated recessive trait involving being a direct relative of a carnate Ascian in Emperor Solus/Emet-Selch, and last expansion installed a bootleg Echo into his brain.
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Apr 23, 2021 13:25
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CYBEReris posted:Zenos is molded by a eugenic might-makes-right society and is depicted as exceptionally powerful, brutal, and selfish even for their standards. He put 11 points into Fight where the WoL put 7 in Fight and 3 in Love. He also has a connection to the Ascians the nature of which is not yet known, but possibly derives from an activated recessive trait involving being a direct relative of a carnate Ascian in Emperor Solus/Emet-Selch, and last expansion installed a bootleg Echo into his brain. Okay, but we're specifically talking about the times when he autowins a fight. Those two fights happen before he gets the Resonance (in fact, he only starts losing fights after getting the Resonance, if I were him I'd consider what that means), and well before we learn who Solus was, so basically everything after your first sentence is out. Credit where it's due, if we actually did know at the time that he was an Ascian's shithead grandson that probably would've been sufficient, it would've explained why he's so strong and also make me want to poke his eyes out, and given me confidence I'd be able to do that since I'd offed Ascians before, but we didn't know that. All we knew was that first sentence of yours. If you find 'he's big, selfish and savage' to be sufficient reason for him to have no trouble knocking us on our rear end, that's great. But to me all that equates to is 'bigger muscles', and that's not enough for me to look forward to a rematch. Not only is it a very boring hook, It's too indistinct as an obstacle to overcome; how do I know that the next time I fight him, he's not still going to be arbitrarily beefier than me in a way I can't counter? And hell, when we fight him a second time and exactly that thing happens, where am I supposed to find the confidence to believe that he won't be unarguably and insurmountably stronger the third time he turns up? Mad Wack posted:ranjit exists to be the ticking clock in the storyline moving us from zone to zone Because we're specifically talking about the maximum of what the playable races are capable of, and it's a hell of a lot easier to type 'peak human performance' than 'peak hyur/elezen/roegadyn/lalafel/miqo'te/au ra/viera/hrothgar performance'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 14:37
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that won't happen because it's not the part of the story where that happens anymore
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Apr 23, 2021 14:55
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We also did defeat him at the end of Stormblood, twice over.
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Apr 23, 2021 15:20
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Waffleman_ posted:We also did defeat him at the end of Stormblood, twice over. We did indeed, and if it weren't for the Exarch we'd have chalked up a third, at least in theory (sure that was Elidibus, but when Zenos' strength is 90% physical, winning against his body counts). But the wins at level 70 aren't the problem. The problem was the fact that over the course of levels 60-69, our interactions with Zenos amounted to him beating us with no real difficulty, twice, for no reason beyond 'he's got bigger muscles'. The retrospective view isn't the one I form my opinion about this on, it's the at-the-time view, how it feels to actually experience these as they happen. And at the time he felt like a cheap, boring, unarguable way to take away progress. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 15:37
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I always thought it was funny that they introduced the accuracy penalty for targeting enemies higher than you in the same expansion where they throw a level 70 enemy at you early. Not only is he dummy strong but a lot of the shots you take at him either miss or do single digit damage. Fantastic encounter design.
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Apr 23, 2021 15:49
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There's someone in Shadowbringers at launch who comes way closer to threatening the Warrior of Light than Monk With a Summon, and that's the Garlean nerd in the Gunbreaker storyline who catches them in a magitek trap. Dead to rights before being freed by Radovan.
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Apr 23, 2021 17:07
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Zenos wins fights in Stormblood because he's level 80. You can see it right in the first trial in which you fight him, Lv.80 Zenos whatever while you're obviously only 73 or something. When you fight him the second time, at level 76 or so, he's still level 80, so you give him more trouble and force him to use his new sword but still lose. At level 80, you and a small team take him down, and later, at the "end" of level 80 and beginning of Shadowbringers, you solo not just Zenos but a Zenos capable of wielding Ascian black magic and handily defeat him.
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Apr 23, 2021 17:46
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*70, 70, 63, 66, 70, 70, 70
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Apr 23, 2021 18:29
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Er yeah, whoops. I need to mentally recalibrate re: "max level" when I talk about it now.
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Apr 23, 2021 18:37
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Farg posted:i dont get why people get like mad or offended when you lose a fight in the narrative. like, for me its just 'ah ok the games doing a thing, gotcha', but some people take it as a personal attack or some poo poo It has some real "if I were a sun seeker cat I'd be a nunh" energy behind it
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Apr 23, 2021 18:41
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People generally dislike the ludonarrative dissonance of doing really well in a fight but then being scripted to lose. That's usually all it is, it's a complaint that's existed for numerous RPGs and the like for decades. Zenos is usually less-complained about than Ran'jit because it's clearly set up you won't win (and also because surviving to the scripted loss is a challenge itself), but Ran'jit is a fight you can be doing fantastic at and then just lose due to an automatic scripted win. Also I'm not sure where the idea that Zenos hadn't subjected himself to the Resonance beforehand comes from. He had crazy scientist guy working for him specifically because of crazy scientist guy's research. There's no point in the story where he clearly gets it, the implication is that he already had it because he's a bored fightman that wants to fight harder despite it playing against his desire to be challenged and crazy scientist guy enabled that.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:17
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Ironslave posted:Also I'm not sure where the idea that Zenos hadn't subjected himself to the Resonance beforehand comes from. He had crazy scientist guy working for him specifically because of crazy scientist guy's research. There's no point in the story where he clearly gets it, the implication is that he already had it because he's a bored fightman that wants to fight harder despite it playing against his desire to be challenged and crazy scientist guy enabled that. Like the sequence of events is, Zenos fights us -> The Empire captures Krile -> They put Krile in the Device -> Zenos assigns Fordola to try out the Device -> Fordola becomes a Resonant -> We fight Zenos again -> Zenos reveals he is a resonant. There is also a period of at least a month, perhaps more like three, where we are over in Doma doing the thing, whereupon one might imagine Zenos went "You know what, this guy has moves, and I want to steal their moves." So you can either have "Zenos was challenged by us and made use of an experimental technology, after sensibly testing it on a subordinate to make sure he had good odds on surviving," or "Zenos used the experimental technology well before it came online and was just sandbagging completely until he decided to merge with the dragon." I am no fan of Zenos but the first one makes him a better character and grounds the narrative more. It means that even if we only see a few parts of the timeline, Zenos was in fact genuinely challenged by us instead of just sitting there going "buhhhh my power level's too big." It means there was an element of pursuit; and it also makes him come off as both strategic and more evil if he made the considered choice to use Fordola as a guinea pig.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:59
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The other possibility is that one of the reasons Zenos IS so jaded is because this was something done to him previously and nothing is a challenge for him anymore. Zenos was already drawing power from his blades when you first fight him, which is before Fordala gets her own Resonant powers. By all rights, none of the mystical abilities he demonstrates during that fight make any sense for a Garlean to be using, and they do not have the distinctive Ceruleum design language demonstrated by Regula and Gaius. Zenos is different from the very start. It's quite possible that he did not actually try pushing himself until the Warrior of Light started actually upping their game.
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Apr 24, 2021 02:23
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