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Should troll Fancy Pelosi be allowed to stay? This poll is closed. |
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Owlspiracy posted:our country is literally founded on a group of people breaking unfair laws to create a more just society. ...the unfairness in particular that they seized on as a rationale being that the guy running the government was unilaterally doing his own thing. Also, Declaration of Independence posted:He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. I don't really think we should take their rationale at face value.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:13
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Rust Martialis posted:No, they're both poo poo. Partisans just think they'll be in the firing squad, not in front of it. History notwithstanding. As people are so fond of saying both can be bad and one can still be worse. (It's the right wing one.) Raenir Salazar posted:
Today I learned that Cuba is the same as Nazi Germany. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 23, 2021 22:14
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AmiYumi posted:Hello, poster who just became aware of US politics over these past four months! Interestingly enough, there’s some very recent history showing what happens when the half-assed plans you didn’t bother to create any sort of legal justification for get challenged in court, or come up for a politically-inconvenient vote! the key limit on trump's actions and his effectiveness was not the rule of law, it was his own incompetence. the traditional checks on the executive branch - congress and the judicial branch - no longer actually function as checks, both because congress is too "partisan" (in this environment nixon would not have been impeached) and divided, and because the judicial branch has been steadily weakened through, again, the appointment of extremely partisan judges. when trump's illegal executive orders were challenged and overturned it was generally on procedural grounds, not because of the fundamental illegality of his actions. republicans conceptualize politics differently than most democrats, and most posters here. for them the rule of law is not important because politics is not a difference between two generally agreeable people; rather, politics is the expression of two diametrically opposed forces which seek to destroy one another. when you truly believe that democrats are out to destroy you and your way of life - and republicans in 2021 truly do believe this, and this is a big shift - then the rule of law ceases to matter because, as i said above, the ends justify the means, because it's literally life or death.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:15
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a big part of why trump was successful is because his 1980s business approach to life - that its a zero sum, winner takes all competition - is the same frame through which many republicans view politics, and people like that. people didn't march on the capital because they were worried that biden would be too liberal for them, they marched because they legitimately believe that democrats are going to wipe them and their families out. we're playing chess where we're carefully measuring opinion polls and exploring legal remedies when half this country is ready to march the barricades to prevent the democratic abortion doctors from murdering their children.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:17
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eviltastic posted:...the unfairness in particular that they seized on as a rationale being that the guy running the government was unilaterally doing his own thing. Also, does "excited domestic insurrections amongst us" mean the King didn't let slaveowners be as ruthless as they wanted to their slaves, cuz I'm not aware of any other domestic insurrections the planter class was afraid of E: oh I looked it up, it means the English government offered freedom to slaves that helped them suppress colonial rebels in the South VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 22:17
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VitalSigns posted:does "excited domestic insurrections amongst us" mean the King didn't let slaveowners be as ruthless as they wanted to their slaves, cuz I'm not aware of any other domestic insurrections the planter class was afraid of to be fair he also wouldn't let them kill enough indians and seize their land AND wanted the rich white landowners to pay too much in taxes. its good that the founding fathers had read enough david hume and enlightenment works to value individual liberty, but by no means was the fight for individual liberty (which the founding fathers themselves already had - remember, rich, white) the key motivation behind the revolution.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:20
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VitalSigns posted:does "excited domestic insurrections amongst us" mean the King didn't let slaveowners be as ruthless as they wanted to their slaves, cuz I'm not aware of any other domestic insurrections the planter class was afraid of I believe it's a reference to slave revolts, yes. e: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmore%27s_Proclamation eviltastic fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 22:22
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Owlspiracy posted:a big part of why trump was successful is because his 1980s business approach to life - that its a zero sum, winner takes all competition - is the same frame through which many republicans view politics, and people like that. people didn't march on the capital because they were worried that biden would be too liberal for them, they marched because they legitimately believe that democrats are going to wipe them and their families out. we're playing chess where we're carefully measuring opinion polls and exploring legal remedies when half this country is ready to march the barricades to prevent the democratic abortion doctors from murdering their children. Umm...Trump's a one term president who managed to lose what should have been an easy re-election. Now, instead of having the full party behind him, he has part of it which will probably continue to shrink. On top of that, a lot (if not most) of his "accomplishments" in office are already overturned by Biden and/or the courts because he did them through EO and/or illegally. Not sure I'd consider that "successful". Unless you mean of a legacy in terms of notoriety, then yea, I guess he's successful. Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 22:22
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Sedisp posted:As people are so fond of saying both can be bad and one can still be worse. As an amateur student of history, it's always struck me how much effort some people put into proving that Hitler was clearly worse then Stalin or Mao or vice versa. That one of them was "worse" by some criteria, than the others. It's seems to me at least that genocides at sufficiently large scale simply cannot be meaningfully ranked. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler were all monsters. Likewise the Turks, the Hutus, Pol Pot, all down the list. The British in Bengal and Indian generally. The Spanish in the New World; the Americans and Canadians in turn. They were all monsters. All terrible.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:27
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Kalit posted:Umm...Trump's a one term president who managed to lose what should have been an easy re-election. Now, instead of having the full party behind him, he has part of it which will probably continue to shrink. On top of that, a lot (if not most) of his "accomplishments" in office are already overturned because he did them through EO. Not sure I'd consider that "successful". trump came in as a complete political outsider with no experience and won a competitive primary and then a general election. and his particular brand of politics - which is essentially nothing but racism and grievance politics played out through culture war issues, with no attempt to provide a coherent ideology, plan of government, or even accomplish anything - still defines the 49% of elected officials who are republicans. we had this conversation yesterday about the republican stimulus proposal: people were concerned that the proposal would be competitive enough that it could pull democratic events, when that was never going to happen because the republican party (a group that is one dead democratic senator away from controlling one of the houses of congress) is not interested in governing. previous iterations of the republican party were interested in governing - even if they were consumed with racism and grievance politics, there were brief periods where they were capable of setting that aside and operating as a deliberative body whose goal was to pass legislation. that ended in 2016.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:27
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Rust Martialis posted:As an amateur student of history, it's always struck me how much effort some people put into proving that Hitler was clearly worse then Stalin or Mao or vice versa. That one of them was "worse" by some criteria, than the others. If only there were other authoritarian left wing countries other than Stalin. Maybe some that existed right now. Perhaps one that I specifically used in the same post. Ah well.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:29
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Sedisp posted:If only there were other authoritarian left wing countries other than Stalin. Maybe some that existed right now. Perhaps one that I specifically used in the same post. Ah well. Not a single one has been "good", it isn't just Stalin. Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos; none of them have given evidence that its worth abandoning representative liberal democracy over.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not a single one has been "good", it isn't just Stalin. Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos; none of them have given evidence that its worth abandoning representative liberal democracy over. Put that goalpost back.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:32
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Sedisp posted:Put that goalpost back. You didn't read the original conversation very well then.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:34
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I don't get this argument, right wing authoritarians have committed genocides. Left wing authoritarians have committed genocides. Liberal democracies have committed genocides. Many countries failed to live to their stated ideals.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:38
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And your original point isn’t as clever as you think it is. Today I learned that Franco Spain is the same as Pol Pot Cambodia. Cherry-picking is fun!
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Apr 23, 2021 22:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not a single one has been "good", it isn't just Stalin. Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos; none of them have given evidence that its worth abandoning representative liberal democracy over. The US doesn't have a representative democracy.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:40
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Atrocity Olympics are loving dumb and tired, but even if they weren't, this isn't the thread for debating if Left-wing Authoritarian regimes are less bad than Right-wing ones. They both suck. You do not under any circumstance need to hand it to them.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:42
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e: Missed the IK message.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:43
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Pontius Pilate posted:And your original point isn’t as clever as you think it is. Today I learned that Franco Spain is the same as Pol Pot Cambodia. Cherry-picking is fun! This is why I just look at them as incommensurate.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:43
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eviltastic posted:...the unfairness in particular that they seized on as a rationale being that the guy running the government was unilaterally doing his own thing. Also, We should remember that the rhetorical purpose of the Declaration, and the list of indictments in particular, wasn't to establish a noble principal, but to get colonists angry enough to support revolution.
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Apr 23, 2021 22:57
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My favorite part of the DoI is the line, (written by a slaveowner) trolling the King by blaming him for importing the colonists' slaves, was deleted after huge outcry by other slaveowners who couldn't abide the implication that slave trading is bad, even to troll and blame the enemy for it. E: oh poo poo that passage is even funnier than I remember quote:He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed again the Liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another. "He kidnapped and murdered a bunch of people and reduced them to slavery and practically forced us to buy them with his irresistibly low prices...and even worse now he wants to make it up to them by freeing the slaves we paid good money for qq" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Apr 23, 2021 |
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Apr 23, 2021 23:01
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Owlspiracy posted:trump came in as a complete political outsider with no experience Beyond that, he did everything he could for decades to try and get politicians of all parties to pay attention to him! Starting a reply by describing the man as a “complete political outsider” is just declaring yourself to be as gullible as his voters. *it’s not exactly a secret that “actually winning the election” was not his goal - look at any coverage of election night, and/or the hastily-scrapped plans for Trump TV
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Apr 23, 2021 23:14
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AmiYumi posted:I know you’re probated and all but this is what I was talking about - Turnip launched repeated Presidential campaigns as a D, R, and most often 3rd party candidate, from the late 80s up to now. All of them (arguably including 2016*) were miserable failures, as he is and will always remain. Absolutely this. Trump was a guy that had been heavily involved in politics and even more so in staying in the public eye for decades. At the time he declared he was more relevant in political circles than most of the sitting/former VPs that had run in recent decades. The fact that he did it all for idiot celebrity attention seeking and sold it as "not a politician" because he'd never actually held any office before doesn't change that. It just changes who his marks were. Though while Trump wasn't an outsider to politics, he was an outsider to government. This was reflected in how he had no idea what to do with any of the machinery once he had his hands on it, how standards for corrupt behavior differ in the public and private sector, how the presidency differs from being a CEO, and how foreign relations differ from running a PR campaign. This led to fuckups all over the place that required but still couldn't be entirely mitigated by his whole party going balls to the wall to steer and protect him. But yeah, the "no experience" part was true and damaging and settled in pretty much from the moment he was sworn in.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:32
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It's a smart move for the college kids to openly support Biden. Maybe now their polling places will be better staffed and their won't be 5 hour long lines again.
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Apr 23, 2021 23:42
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To reiterate, I am solely commenting from my own perspective on things when I say it makes me a little sad about stuff like this. I didn't mean to start off a big old debate, again sorry!
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Apr 23, 2021 23:57
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Bootleg Trunks posted:It's a smart move for the college kids to openly support Biden. Maybe now their polling places will be better staffed and their won't be 5 hour long lines again. What does that have to do with Biden?
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Apr 24, 2021 00:04
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Vorik posted:What does that have to do with Biden? He's going to bribe them by cancelling their debt
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Apr 24, 2021 00:11
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mobby_6kl posted:He's going to bribe them by cancelling their debt 
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Apr 24, 2021 00:17
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mobby_6kl posted:He's going to bribe them by cancelling their debt He will not make that happen. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/joe-biden/i-will-not-make-happen-biden-declines-democrats-call-cancel-n1258069
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Apr 24, 2021 00:27
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So if we want Biden to fulfill campaign promises and roll back Trump's changes instead of embracing them, that's leftwing authoritarianism? Why would he need to break laws? Democrats told us for years how they were the only adults in the room and they would do right by Americans.
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Apr 24, 2021 00:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not a single one has been "good", it isn't just Stalin. Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos; none of them have given evidence that its worth abandoning representative liberal democracy over. You live in a representative liberal democracy in which armed agents of the state can and do execute residents on a whim in broad daylight with virtual impunity, and that has constructed the largest prison apparatus in human history
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Apr 24, 2021 00:39
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i just wanted to boost this to the new page because its even more insane than i thought it would be. I mean, he should be pretty happy that they put a rapist on Pirates of the Caribbean when they changed it. There's just no pleasing some people.
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Apr 24, 2021 00:39
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I think i posted about this earlier, but it looks like we're on the verge of a pogrom being carried out in jerusalem against palestinians https://twitter.com/abierkhatib/status/1385313115114512394
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Apr 24, 2021 00:57
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please dial down the shitposting in this thread a bit
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Apr 24, 2021 01:18
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"Eye-popping" tax rates that are the same top rate as 1994, a corporate tax rate the same as it was in 2018, and a capital gains rate 3% higher than the rate in 1981. https://twitter.com/axios/status/1385562848454082563 Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 01:24
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I mean, he should be pretty happy that they put a rapist on Pirates of the Caribbean when they changed it. There's just no pleasing some people. is he? i thought he was just an rear end in a top hat and they were both physically abusive toward each other and it was some gross hell marriage and he was always drunk.
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Apr 24, 2021 01:35
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Unless Caitlyn Jenner gets rid of the California 529A plan I just signed up for, I don't see much a reason to be concerned as a non-Californian on the east coast. ...(she wouldn't would she?)
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Apr 24, 2021 01:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Eye-popping" tax rates that are the same top rate as 1994, a corporate tax rate the same as it was in 2018, and a capital gains rate 3% higher than the rate in 1981. Yup. I like this.
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Apr 24, 2021 01:39
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Sax Mortar posted:Yup. I like this. The framing that taking the top tax rate back to what it was under Bill Clinton and the corporate tax rate back to what it was in 2018 is "eye-popping" is bad. The capital gains rate would actually be higher than it ever has been, but also only by about 4%.
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Apr 24, 2021 01:44
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