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There's a few elements that Rich now deeply regrets (according to forum statements). The Tentacles of Forced intrusion, Haley's constant use of gendered insults (which resulted in a forum user wondering if the woman from Tarquin's party counted as an "airborne tramp"), the gender-bending belt (intended as a "flip Roy's perspective as the culmination of the Miko arc, to show him how much of a boorish rear end he's being, interpreted as a transphobic statement), and the lizardfolk prostitute with breast implants (intended as a mockery of the trend for artists to put breasts on non-mammals, interpreted as a transphobic statement).
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Apr 25, 2021 18:18
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i don't get the sense that the belt thing was especially offensive. sure it's played for laughs, but it's a comedy strip (especially in those days) and the both intended and actual effect seems to be to place roy out of his comfort zone by shoving him into a body he doesn't want (and making him the object of sexual attention that he doesn't want) as a way of legitimate character development. i don't get transphobia from it beyond roy being rightly uncomfortable with a forced gender reassignment you could say that it's a light treatment, but imo it's not aged especially poorly. i can absolutely understand that he'd prefer not to have to deal with having touched this subject in hindsight, though, because it's so easy to get burned
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Apr 25, 2021 19:53
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According to Rich, he's had trans fans come up to him at conventions and say that they were personally hurt by the belt strips.
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Apr 25, 2021 20:23
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I don’t think the gender belt strips were actively, maliciously transphobic or anything, they just existed in a context where it was okay to make a punchline out of that sort of thing. The introduction of the belt is literally “oh gross, who would ever want this....(beat)....ha ha, wacky Elan is picking it up!” Rich didn’t mean harm by it but I’m glad he (and culture in general) have moved on. Re vvvvvv: to be clear, I’m not saying it’s a GOOD thing that this sort of punchline was okay. I’m trans and I recognize a distinction between “this joke is casually lovely and made by a person who wasn’t thinking too hard about its impact” and “this joke is made by a bigot with the intent to be cruel”. wizzardstaff fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Apr 25, 2021 |
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Apr 25, 2021 21:25
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As a rule of thumb, it's better to take trans people's word on these things.
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Apr 25, 2021 21:56
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paradoxGentleman posted:As a rule of thumb, it's better to take trans people's word on these things. But every time someone comes in and starts dropping their cis takes in trans it ends in hilarity
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Apr 25, 2021 22:26
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paradoxGentleman posted:As a rule of thumb, it's better to take trans people's word on these things. Personally as a trans woman I don't see it as transphobic
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Apr 25, 2021 22:49
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Rumda posted:Personally as a trans woman I don't see it as transphobic
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Apr 25, 2021 23:10
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It's one of those things where it's possible and reasonable to be offended at, but it's also possible to appreciate authorial intent as having its heart in a good place. The belt itself is a long time classic magic item in d&d intended to create roll playing experiences by having players confront gender but there's a ton of transphobia contained in the fact that it was listed under "cursed items"
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Apr 25, 2021 23:26
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I thought it was listed under cursed items because you couldn't remove it yourself Also let's be honest, there have always been trans people in the tabletop games industry, the belt is no accident.
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Apr 26, 2021 00:45
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ikanreed posted:The belt itself is a long time classic magic item in d&d intended to create roll playing experiences by having players confront gender but there's a ton of transphobia contained in the fact that it was listed under "cursed items" The girdle of masculinity/femininity was not intended "to create roll-playing experiences". It's 100% a "ha ha, you're a girl now!" item. If you want to know early D&D's views on gender, look no further than the stat adjustments.
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Apr 26, 2021 00:45
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ikanreed posted:The belt itself is a long time classic magic item in d&d intended to create roll playing experiences by having players confront gender but there's a ton of transphobia contained in the fact that it was listed under "cursed items" Seriously, what was the point of the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity anyway? Gender in D&D has no effect on gameplay at all. I still remember, reading through the 1.0 DMG at the tender age of 14 or 15 or something, and thinking "Huh? Why is this even here?"
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Apr 26, 2021 00:47
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Yeah, geek culture has always been as steeped in toxic masculinity as regular American culture, we just think we’re better because we worship cleverness over sports prowess.
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Apr 26, 2021 00:49
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Gynovore posted:I still remember, reading through the 1.0 DMG at the tender age of 14 or 15 or something, and thinking "Huh? Why is this even here?"  (not in reference to the belt the thread is talking about)
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Apr 26, 2021 00:50
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Gynovore posted:Seriously, what was the point of the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity anyway? Gender in D&D has no effect on gameplay at all. In the Baldur's Gate game, it at least served the purpose of introducing newbies to the concept of cursed items without having an actual gameplay penalty hit your Level 1 rear end after surviving the ogre wearing it. It also allows you to experience romance mods for both genders on a single playthrough, I guess??
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Apr 26, 2021 00:51
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Gynovore posted:Seriously, what was the point of the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity anyway? Gender in D&D has no effect on gameplay at all. I mean Dark Souls has that coffin that does the same thing. The most obvious answer is its more advantageous on disguise checks?
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Apr 26, 2021 01:10
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Gynovore posted:Seriously, what was the point of the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity anyway? Gender in D&D has no effect on gameplay at all. "My players are too blase about taking risks in game, and even the threat of character death doesn't slow them down. What could I put in a dungeon that would actually scare them?"
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Apr 26, 2021 01:25
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Given that I have way too much time on my hands lately (wfh is very much a mixed blessing) I pulled up a pdf of the 1.0 Player's Handbook and searched for 'female', and... Well, isn't that nice and inclusive and forward thinking! Except that if you go down a dozen pages...  Whoops!
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Apr 26, 2021 01:49
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Durkon's coming out of the closet joke was awful but him being willing to support Roy if he didn't want to take the belt off was kinda nice; it's complicated.
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Apr 26, 2021 01:56
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Gynovore posted:Given that I have way too much time on my hands lately (wfh is very much a mixed blessing) I pulled up a pdf of the 1.0 Player's Handbook and searched for 'female', and... Edit: reread the chart again. Found a female human line so my bad joke isn't valid anymore
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Apr 26, 2021 02:33
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Gynovore posted:Given that I have way too much time on my hands lately (wfh is very much a mixed blessing) I pulled up a pdf of the 1.0 Player's Handbook and searched for 'female', and... What the hell is Strength 18/XX?
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Apr 26, 2021 02:41
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In early D&D the "/xx" was for exceptional strength. It was only available to fighters iirc and the higher the number, the higher the bonuses you got to hit and damage. 19 STR and up was generally only for monsters.
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Apr 26, 2021 02:49
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ZearothK posted:What the hell is Strength 18/XX? Stats cap out at 18 during character creation. Some classes get to have better bonuses beyond that, though, and in order to generate that you roll percentile dice. (Remember, old D&D rolled stats.)
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Apr 26, 2021 02:50
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ZearothK posted:What the hell is Strength 18/XX? One of the many weird rules from V1.0. If a fighter (and only a fighter) rolls a natural 18 on STR during character generation, they roll percentile dice to determine "exceptional strength", while is just like having more strength, except... the rules are weirder.
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Apr 26, 2021 02:50
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ZearothK posted:What the hell is Strength 18/XX? In First and Second Edition , if you were rolling Strength for a character that was a Fighter or similar, if you rolled up an 18, you would roll percentile dice to get a score between 18/01 and 18/00. The various Strength-attached bonuses would also apply to the brackets presented on the listed chart (To Hit and Damage Bonus, Open Doors rolls, Bend Bars/Lift Gates chance, etc.).
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Apr 26, 2021 02:50
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ZearothK posted:What the hell is Strength 18/XX? Ah, people don't remember extraordinary strength. Shame!  Basically up until and including AD&D 2E there was a whole range of strengths between 18 and 19 called 18/XX... if you were a fighter or ranger or paladin (I think? I know in 2E all three would have this, 1E might have done this strictly for fighters or had caps for the other two fighting classes), and you got 18 strength, you could roll a d100 and your strength would be 18/34 or whatever, which would be a bit stronger than 18. Different races had caps on it, of course, because how else could you imagine making sure not everyone takes non-humans?  e: fb like a str 18/99 fighter encountering a str 20 monster.
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Apr 26, 2021 02:51
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ZearothK posted:What the hell is Strength 18/XX? In pre-3rd Edition D&D, Fighters (and only Fighters) who had 18 Strength could roll a d100 to gain additional bonuses to hit and damage. Gygax figured this was more interesting than simply having Strength go to 19 or higher.
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Apr 26, 2021 02:53
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I do find it kind of interesting that the initial joke with Vaarsuvius was probably something like "Elf men look so girly that we don't know if V is a man... or a woman!!" but now that it's 2021 I just assume that some elves are non-binary.
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Apr 26, 2021 02:56
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YggiDee posted:I do find it kind of interesting that the initial joke with Vaarsuvius was probably something like "Elf men look so girly that we don't know if V is a man... or a woman!!" but now that it's 2021 I just assume that some elves are non-binary.  Xykon at least acknowledges Vaarsuvius might not be on the binary, albeit not gracefully
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Apr 26, 2021 03:33
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Cup Runneth Over posted:
wait is THAT what that was supposed to mean? I thought it was an extension of the tag thing where V was also looking for something.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:38
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As far as I'm concerned V is absolutely nonbinary. They don't even care how they're gendered by others.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:40
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Taciturn Tactician posted:wait is THAT what that was supposed to mean? I thought it was an extension of the tag thing where V was also looking for something. It's supposed to mean that V is an "it," yes, i.e. not gendered (except that transphobic people use the pronoun as a slur)
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Apr 26, 2021 03:41
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Cup Runneth Over posted:It's supposed to mean that V is an "it," yes, i.e. not gendered (except that transphobic people use the pronoun as a slur) And some people embrace "it" as a pronoun. It's chill.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:43
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Post poste posted:And some people embrace "it" as a pronoun. It's chill. yeah, if they say they embrace it and give permission, sure, lol. it's still not exactly the most graceful thing to have your villain call your nonbinary protagonist
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Apr 26, 2021 03:45
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You could also see Roy's experience with the belt as affirming the trans experience, particularly for trans men. While he is cursed he is a trans man, not a trans woman. He is a man in a stuck in a biologically female body. Roy knows and feels that he is male with every fiber of his being. It is not a phase. It is not a disillusion or mental illness. He doesn't want the boobs, he doesn't want to sit down to pee, and his first period is going to be unpleasant for him. He has to live in a world where everyone treats him as a woman. He has to fend off unwanted male sexual attention. People don't take him seriously. The storyline isn't a man transitions to a woman and that's gross. He's 100% man the entire time.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:46
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SKULL.GIF posted:As far as I'm concerned V is absolutely nonbinary. They don't even care how they're gendered by others. Rich has said that V is genderqueer , which I think is supposed to mean non-binary. At the time he made the statement, the correct language was still being hammered out.
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Apr 26, 2021 05:54
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Sort of, it's GNC for sure. I think the implication is that V doesn't care one bit what gender they're referred to as (as mentioned above) so they're genderfluid.
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Apr 26, 2021 06:11
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Maybe I haven’t been keeping up, but I think V would be termed as agender (off the spectrum entirely) rather than genderfluid (somewhere towards the middle of the spectrum), but non-binary either way.
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Apr 26, 2021 06:30
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SKULL.GIF posted:As far as I'm concerned V is absolutely nonbinary. They don't even care how they're gendered by others. That does appear to be an elf thing in general in this setting. I just assume that gender has an entirely different meaning in elven culture, if it even has a meaning at all.
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Apr 26, 2021 06:33
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AnoHito posted:That does appear to be an elf thing in general in this setting. I just assume that gender has an entirely different meaning in elven culture, if it even has a meaning at all. I like the implication that elven language just has more words and nuance to describe the gender spectrum and the relationships therein, and it just does not translate to our current version of English at all and comes all stilted such as "Are you alright, beloved child?" "Yes, thank you, parent!"
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Apr 26, 2021 07:12
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