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Inner Light posted:My goal for the next 6 months is to gain enough skills where i can be marketable enough to have the balls to ask this question and decide my next move based on the answer. As it is now I'm afraid of being labeled 'not a team player' if I even ask that question. Yes yes 'if the employer operates that way you don't want them to be your employer' but it's tough to think that way when most companies have a lot of unpaid overtime and jobs don't grow on trees for me. It's scary how much we have to second guess ourselves in order to please our corporate masters. Thesedays I ask because I know what will happen if I don't. I'll burn out, start drinking heavily and get fired. So either way I won't be keeping that job, and I may as well find out early. It does sound like a dangerous question but I have had some companies respond positively. Some say "we are strictly 9-5" and some don't care and tell me that overtime is expected. Dongsturm fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Apr 18, 2021 |
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Apr 18, 2021 05:45
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Inner Light posted:My goal for the next 6 months is to gain enough skills where i can be marketable enough to have the balls to ask this question and decide my next move based on the answer. As it is now I'm afraid of being labeled 'not a team player' if I even ask that question. Yes yes 'if the employer operates that way you don't want them to be your employer' but it's tough to think that way when most companies have a lot of unpaid overtime and jobs don't grow on trees for me. There are ways to angle around this without asking it directly. "Who's responsible for setting deadlines on the objectives the team will be working on? How does the team react when it becomes clear that a deadline isn't going to be met?"
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Apr 18, 2021 05:53
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haven't signed an offer letter yet, but the pay is fine tbh. am i chump if i don't negotiate higher anyway?
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Apr 18, 2021 19:47
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jimmychoo posted:haven't signed an offer letter yet, but the pay is fine tbh. am i chump if i don't negotiate higher anyway? * they can pull the offer but at that point you don’t want to work for such fuckheads
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Apr 18, 2021 19:51
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well of course i have impostor syndrome and am only minorly confident rn in my ability to be good at the job. also this is the first offer i've gotten since getting laid off last year, so i am scared to rock the boat lol
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Apr 18, 2021 20:01
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jimmychoo posted:haven't signed an offer letter yet, but the pay is fine tbh. am i chump if i don't negotiate higher anyway? In addition to the above, it's uncomfortable to negotiate now, but in a week or three, no one is gonna remember or care about the number or the process leading to it. Except you, because you get to donate that much more to the local orphanage/buy that much more coke/pay off your student loans before you hit 89. But it's absolutely uncomfortable, so I get why you don't wanna.
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Apr 18, 2021 20:05
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ugh... they also gave me a really generous relocation offer which i appreciate. does that change things or no? lol. “please do not think i am weak for not negotiating with you, i know my power but i am simply tired.”
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Apr 18, 2021 20:33
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jimmychoo posted:ugh... they also gave me a really generous relocation offer which i appreciate. does that change things or no? lol. Relo should be standard. The easiest thing here would be to pick one thing from your offer that your meh on and negotiate that. If you can't find anything then ask for a 5-10% bump. If you're struggling to ask, you can do it in a super simple email that basically thanks them for the offer, states how excited you are and then says you'll accept if X is increased or changed. asur fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Apr 18, 2021 |
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Apr 18, 2021 20:50
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jimmychoo posted:ugh... they also gave me a really generous relocation offer which i appreciate. does that change things or no? lol. But if you don’t ask for a little bump up on salary or maybe even starting bonus then there’s like a 99% chance you’re leaving money on the table.
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Apr 18, 2021 21:40
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blurghhh, i’m curious how other women feel about negotiation, esp from an employer POV. of course the professional world is less fair to us, and i’m not in the practice of asserting myself financially. every time i’ve tried during my career it never really has worked out the way i wanted it to (which, to be fair, has not been that varied of a career, i’ve been with the same toxic company for a long time). i feel so hopeless in this like bizarro lovely world lately that i feel like they’re just gonna call me a bitch and rescind. that said, can i just ask for like 2k more and call it a day? that’s not even 5% lol.
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Apr 18, 2021 22:09
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fourwood posted:At the end of the day if you’re happy then you’re happy. Yeah if you're happy then you're happy. I didn't push for more in a similar situation and I'm still ok with my choice, since it was at the tail end of a very emotionally difficult year and was a very attractive offer and substantial increase for me after an employment gap. Given my rough year I just put it down to "know when you've won." But this is the negotiation thread and I am sure I did leave some money on the table. E: jimmychoo posted:blurghhh, i’m curious how other women feel about negotiation I am also a woman, I'm in a tech field and this was a career change for me. Dunno if relevant, but it's a data point for you. jemand fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Apr 18, 2021 |
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Apr 18, 2021 22:13
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I'm a woman who negotiated for the first time when accepting my current job thanks to this thread. I was happy with their initial offer and going to take the job anyway, but I still asked for ~15% more. They only came up 5% more, but it was the easiest 5% salary increase I've ever made. I'm almost looking forward to doing it again soon when I start applying for new jobs. The best tips I can give are a) read this whole thread and b) literally practice saying some variation of "thank you for the offer, based on everything I've learned I'd be happy to accept at [$large number$], can we make that work?" out loud, in the mirror until you can say it clearly and calmly. If it helps, remind yourself that the lovely dudes at your company probably all negotiated during their hiring process. Don't let them get one up on you by not doing it yourself. You're worth it!
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Apr 18, 2021 22:40
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jimmychoo posted:blurghhh, i’m curious how other women feel about negotiation, esp from an employer POV. of course the professional world is less fair to us, and i’m not in the practice of asserting myself financially. every time i’ve tried during my career it never really has worked out the way i wanted it to (which, to be fair, has not been that varied of a career, i’ve been with the same toxic company for a long time). My first job out of college was pretty bad and I needed to escape. I was lucky enough to get an offer from a Fortune 100 corporation (back in the days of job postings including salary!) and I accepted the verbal offer straight off as I didn't want to mess up my escape from the bad job. I think my boss took pity on my lack of negotiating skills, as the formal offer letter had a 5% bump I didn't even ask for. There was clearly some room in the budget that I was too clueless about! Previous to my current job, a former colleague was hiring me for her team but she was transparent about there being no room in the budget to increase the pay despite my level of experience. I still needed the job, and knowing her gave me the confidence to be clear about what I needed. I got the two weeks extra vacation I asked for. I later found out from HR that I was the only employee at my level coded to receive that amount of vacation. My current job is in tech and wildly exceeds even the top salaries on tables for my (traditionally underpaid) profession, so I didn't want to rock the boat during the offer stage. All I had the confidence to do was to simply state I didn't need health benefits when they offered up the salary range; they came back at the top of the range they gave me. I've been here for three years now and understand the internal dynamics well enough to know that they would've moved a mountain or two to give me more if I had asked for it, but I didn't even try because I didn't get how insane tech is. I'm fairly confident I'll never get paid this well again, as traditional companies don't value my line of work at this rate of pay, but all of these little lessons in negotiating have taught me that I should at least TRY to ask for something beyond what I'm offered.
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Apr 18, 2021 23:32
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My wife got out of an exceptionally bad job and was willing to take virtually anything to just get out of there. After interviewing at 2 companies where she didn't get an offer she had aced all her interviews in the last one. She liked the company, her new role and the pay was better than she expected it to be. I gave her the same advice as this thread is giving everyone. Say that you're excited about the role/company and that you'd be willing to join if they can bump up the pay by x. She was also worried about rocking the boat and never negotiated about any job in the past (and hadn't been interviewing for ages). In the end she decided, what the hell, if I don't get the increase I'll still be happy so why not give it a shot. The company went out of their way to accommodate her request and (had to?) put her in a pay grade 1 level higher than what they were hiring for. This also resulted in several additional benefits that increased significantly. She was incredibly happy with the pay increase and for her it also showed the company appreciated her as a person as well as the skills she was bringing aboard. Just ask, nobody gets punished for negotiating (except if a company is evil and then they're doing you a favor by letting you know before taking the job).
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Apr 19, 2021 10:18
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LochNessMonster posted:Just ask, nobody gets punished for negotiating (except if a company is evil and then they're doing you a favor by letting you know before taking the job). We like to chant this refrain over and over for a reason, because it's true. AND, finding out that a company is evil and has rescinded your offer MAY be worse than continuing to be unemployed, depending on where else your financial position stands. Same thing said a different way: you may be better off working for shitheads than not having a job in our present capitalist hellscape. If you can cover your living expenses and are gainfully employed, then you almost always want to negotiate, and want to have bad actors show you how bad they are. If your position is worse than that, then you aren't being unreasonable in your fears and should definitely give it some thought and discussion (maybe inclusive of posting in this thread).
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Apr 19, 2021 15:50
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ya I think jimmychoo mentioned they are out of work and have been since last year so i dunno, if you really want it not negotiating is not the end of the world. however, if you see yourself there long term probably a good idea to start off on the right foot by negotiating - and if you plan to stay long term you should investigate if they are the kind of outfit that punishes negotiation.
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Apr 19, 2021 17:37
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i appreciate all the feedback from everyone! no updates yet to report, i did ask for a measly 3% salary increase so we'll see what they say. i hope it's not "go gently caress yourself," because yes, i really need a job and this one is very good! currently i want to die from the anxiety but we'll see what happens, pray for me ty
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Apr 19, 2021 18:41
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rooting for you, jimmychoo!
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Apr 19, 2021 18:49
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During an initial interview last week, they asked my pay requirements, and I tried to defer talking about salary until later and I mentioned needing to know more, including health benefits. He started reading out the health insurance info one-sheet to me, line by line. wtf just email me. He really wanted a number though.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:09
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thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:17
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A W is a W, they were probably ecstatic to put the deal on paper and it sounds like you got what you wanted! Next time you'll be in a position to ask for 30%
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Apr 19, 2021 21:18
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great.  You got more than you otherwise would have, have helped normalize people in general and women in particular negotiating for pay, and will be more comfortable with the doing more next time. Wins all around, if you ask me.
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Apr 19, 2021 21:56
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. not only is that a very easy 3% but it also means that any future increases are off of your new higher base! get paid AGAIN
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Apr 19, 2021 22:05
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. earmark a bit of whatever that comes out to post-tax for something nice in a year, imo 
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Apr 19, 2021 22:40
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. Congrats on not only being courageous but on also succeeding! 
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Apr 20, 2021 01:17
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. Congratulations! Inspiration for me when I need to renegotiate my contract 
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Apr 20, 2021 01:36
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. Well done! 
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Apr 20, 2021 13:45
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great.
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Apr 20, 2021 14:22
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jimmychoo posted:thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great. absolutely amazing, congrats on getting paid even better and becoming more comfortable negotiating!
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Apr 20, 2021 15:00
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Hi thread! I came cross a very interesting role at a company I am somewhat familiar with. The role is a further specialization of the work I am currently doing at a similar company, but a) I'm pretty sure I am underpaid and b) this company offers better benefits generally. Since I am otherwise happy where I am I have no urgent reason to leave. A little over three weeks after applying I get a call from their recruitment team asking to do a brief call with them, which was today. It was basically just confirming stuff on my CV and a few other details, but they were of course also asking about salary expectation. On that I took this thread's advice and said I couldn't give any clear indication without knowing more about the overall benefit package, and more details on the responsibilities of the role. It's now going to the hiring team so somewhere in the next few weeks I should have a proper interview. Stay tuned!
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Apr 21, 2021 15:02
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u brexit ukip it posted:Hi thread! I came cross a very interesting role at a company I am somewhat familiar with. The role is a further specialization of the work I am currently doing at a similar company, but a) I'm pretty sure I am underpaid and b) this company offers better benefits generally. Since I am otherwise happy where I am I have no urgent reason to leave. A little over three weeks after applying I get a call from their recruitment team asking to do a brief call with them, which was today. It was basically just confirming stuff on my CV and a few other details, but they were of course also asking about salary expectation. On that I took this thread's advice and said I couldn't give any clear indication without knowing more about the overall benefit package, and more details on the responsibilities of the role. It's now going to the hiring team so somewhere in the next few weeks I should have a proper interview. Stay tuned!
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Apr 21, 2021 18:55
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Yeah refusing salary at the early stages of recruitment is the hardest part. I don't think I've ever been asked about salary past that point until it's offer time for any job I've interviewed for (not that it is unheard of). Good job!
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Apr 21, 2021 19:29
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thanks again all. remember, if i can do it then anyone can
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Apr 22, 2021 17:11
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I'm considering a contract to hire position. One of my concerns is how negotiations would go for me if the company hires me to be a direct employee. Wouldn't I be in a rather difficult position to negotiate? Anyone have experience with this or recommendations? I am absolutely going to ask for a very high contract rate due to all of the risks and costs I can think of. Here's a working list I started to put together. If there are any more to consider that I might have forgotten then please let me know. It's W2 contract, so at least I'm covered on SS/Medicare tax stuff. vested 401k loss 401k match loss bonus loss pto loss holidays loss benefits loss 401k annual tax savings loss 401k 30 year return loss unemployment coverage risk of contract risk of hire negotiation position
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Apr 24, 2021 14:08
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I think what others have said in this thread is take your expected salary and then double it. Obv you can do more if you want. Dont forget that youre on the hook for your side of payroll taxes too, so thats another 8% out of your pocket.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:53
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Keystoned posted:I think what others have said in this thread is take your expected salary and then double it. Obv you can do more if you want. See I was confused about the payroll taxes part as I thought that only applied if you were a 1099 contractor. I thought W2 contractors didn't have to deal with the higher taxes/paying social security issue. edit: quote:As a self-employed person, you are responsible for paying 15.3 percent self-employment tax, which is your contribution to Medicare and Social Security tax. Regular employees also pay Medicare and Social Security tax, which amounts to 7.65 percent.  Either way, I guess I can completely understand why people say 2x target salary, what a pain in the rear end.
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Apr 24, 2021 19:47
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A W2 contractor will not be paying the employer side of FICA. It's probably state dependent, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a W2 contractor to not get unemployment when their contract ends. The 2x advice is for a 1099 and even that is dependent on what your salary would be since not all costs scale. Can you not negotiate the hire part now as well? You're basically doing so anyway since the company knows the cost of contractor versus employee.
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Apr 24, 2021 20:48
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asur posted:A W2 contractor will not be paying the employer side of FICA. It's probably state dependent, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a W2 contractor to not get unemployment when their contract ends. The 2x advice is for a 1099 and even that is dependent on what your salary would be since not all costs scale. I first started into the interviews with a clear discussion that I preferred direct hire, but that was with the recruiting agency in between. I made it clear that any contract would have an expectation of very high compensation. So at some point the agency said the hiring company prefers contract right now, and they hire most everyone after the contract, blah blah blah. They haven't come back with any numbers yet, so I'm just trying to figure out how big of a number I need to cover all my compensation losses above (which now also includes dep care fsa tax loss), and enough money so that if the contract didn't continue I can be unemployed and not care. I'm employed now and am completely ready to turn this down and move on to the next opportunity if necessary.
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Apr 24, 2021 21:13
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I did a contract (W2- not 1099) to hire conversion a couple years ago. You can negotiate, but it's *very very very* limited because you basically have no BATNA. For this particular job, the contract paid quite well (more than I ever thought I'd be making to be honest), but as you probably guessed, had no benefits beyond a health insurance plan that I was able to pay for prior to taxes. Those tax savings were it though- the staffing agency paid nothing into the actual plan (by that I mean if I had to switch to COBRA, it would have cost exactly the same, but after taxes instead). A lot of companies will try to pay you a lower salary when you convert because of all the compensation that you're now getting (actual company buy-in to health insurance, vacation, sick days, retirement, etc.) and a lot of people who have converted at various companies that I know have been disappointed by that. When it was time for my conversion, that very thing did happen (although not to an extreme), but I was prepared for it- I had already calculated what my salary would need to be for the same take-home pay now that my health insurance was like 100 bucks a month instead of 400 and just asked for that number as a counter. It was no problem. So basically I ended up with the same take-home pay, but now had a retirement plan, 19 days of vacation, and much better health insurance. It was definitely a decent step up even though it looked like I was actually making a couple thousand less if you just looked at my salary. That said, I did know that I was already being paid extremely well- for my position in my field, it's probably in the top 25%. If they refused to come up to the number I named, I probably still would have taken the conversion because there's no way I'd be making that kind of money anywhere else around the area- I get recruiters all the time trying to get me for contract positions with the same job title that pay 40-50k less than what I make right now. If you aren't in a situation like that and they really try to cheap out on your conversion, but you have other options, definitely consider walking.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:55
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I have a question about what to charge for contract work with a twist. I currently have a job running tests on the website and analyzing the resulting data for a well established stable company's marketing department. I was contacted by a former colleague of mine from a previous company asking if I would be interested in applying for a role on his team doing similar work. This new position would be in a startup environment where they are growing fast and have a decent runway. The exit is to be sold to the company that has funded 60% seems to be in 3 years. The company is already positioned itself attractive to the potential buyer. I applied and today I got a call saying I am the top candidate but because of lower than expected sales the budget isn't there to hire me full time, would I consider doing some part time work for the company in the meantime. The company will re-evaluate in a few months. In a way this also works for me, I get to pull in an bit of income while testing the waters of a startup company that may still go bust at any time. What I don't know is how should I value my time? I would be switching to the new company only for a minimum of $125k plus equity(?). I don't know the different types of contract work out there, so I assume I'd be 1099. What do I need to consider when going back to the startup with an hourly rate? A calculated hourly rate of $60/hour based on the minimum salary. Should I double that to $120/hour? Should I ask for more because I might be in a negotiating position for a future job?
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Apr 26, 2021 19:56
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