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I like the new suit. I also like that he's wearing it in the first few minutes of the episode and didn't save it for an after credits scene or the big climax
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Apr 25, 2021 17:02
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Retro Futurist posted:I like the new suit. I also like that he's wearing it in the first few minutes of the episode and didn't save it for an after credits scene or the big climax Yeah, I was worried that case would just have new wings in it and he wouldn't get the full suit until the end.
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Apr 25, 2021 17:29
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I feel like if 3 or 4 more people repeat the same joke then it'll really land.
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Apr 25, 2021 17:48
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She was Palpatine the whole time!
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Apr 25, 2021 19:09
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twistedmentat posted:She was Palpatine the whole time! Ok, now it all makes sense.
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Apr 25, 2021 20:29
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cant cook creole bream posted:Will we get Sharon's side of the story? I mean if she's risking her life and reputation, to liberate dangerous weaponry from the hands of the US government, she must be the hero, right? I genuinely believe that this is true and that she's secretly working with Fury to get an underground SHIELD up and running again behind the scenes, possibly working against the Skrull invasion. ...semi-joking, but tbh she's no worse of an irredeemable bastard than Nick Fury was/is.
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Apr 26, 2021 03:37
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XboxPants posted:I genuinely believe that this is true and that she's secretly working with Fury to get an underground SHIELD up and running again behind the scenes, possibly working against the Skrull invasion. Did movie Nick Fury do anything that bad? IIRC his worst poo poo was people technically in charge of him ordering crimes against humanity and him undermining and subverting them
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Apr 26, 2021 07:46
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My working theory with Val is she will take the place of Osbourne in Secret Invasion. When it comes to the kill shot, she’ll take it. The world loves her and she gets the keys to the castle and sets-up Dark Avengers with USAgent and others. Oh and Sharon is 100% a skrull.
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Apr 26, 2021 08:58
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I don't think Sharon is a skrull. She helped them, then they didn't do poo poo for her even during the blip. She was abandoned by her friends, labeled a traitor by her country, which she had dedicated her life to, all because she...*checks notes* helped beloved world hero Steve Rogers once. She has every right to be pissed off, bitter, and looking for pay back. That's very human, and it's a great angle, and them going "lol she was an alien actually, forget all that other stuff" would suck rear end.
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Apr 26, 2021 15:28
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Yeah she is clearly just spurned. I need to rewatch but she did claim she was dusted right?
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Apr 26, 2021 15:55
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Rhyno posted:Yeah she is clearly just spurned. I need to rewatch but she did claim she was dusted right? Pretty sure she did, and it explains why Steve didn't already get her a pardon- not much point when he thought she was dead. And then after the blip he was a little busy to take care of it before he went off to be with her aunt.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:10
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Sefer posted:Pretty sure she did, and it explains why Steve didn't already get her a pardon- not much point when he thought she was dead. And then after the blip he was a little busy to take care of it before he went off to be with her aunt. Sam and Bucky were dusted, same as Sharon.
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Apr 26, 2021 21:12
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I mean. There's bitter, and then there's "drench your enemies in Mercuric acid, sell weapons on the black market" bitter. She caught a lot of bad breaks but there's got to be more to this heel turn than just that.
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Apr 26, 2021 23:27
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We don't really know much about Sharon's earlier character or how things went for her over the last few years. If she was already even a little morally gray I could see her enjoying a whole bunch of money and power. That's as human as being spurned and wanting revenge
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Apr 27, 2021 00:52
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Its a bit like the "Darcy's a scientist?" thing from WandaVision. Its been 10 years for her. She certainly could have spent those 10 years becoming the best in her field. But its potentially a little jarring to viewers. In the same way I have no real problem with the idea that Sharon went on the run for 2 years and either got blipped or spent the next 5 years also on the run and she got jaded in her isolation and one thing led to another and she became a villain. Its just a tad jarring because its dramatically different from "Peggy's niece and Cap's love interest" and we didn't see any of it.
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Apr 27, 2021 00:59
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People on the internet have pointed out that she has amassed an awful lot of weath, notoriety, and power for someone who just undusted so unless she immediately came back and usurped an established underworld boss(which maybe through her SHIELD training/intel/history she was able to do this quickly) she's possibly been the Shadow Broker all along. My current theory is that she got a job where she could and then maybe a Dread Pirate Roberts scenario played out because Zemo, who has been in jail for years, has interacted(had trouble?) with the Power Broker and she's probably not old enough to have that history.
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Apr 27, 2021 01:31
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Retro Futurist posted:We don't really know much about Sharon's earlier character It's certainly realistic for her to have become more jaded and embittered by events, but again: she melted that guy's face. That's not just "a tad jarring." That's a vile, sadistic move and a very red flag. It's tempting to look at the MCU's dense storytelling and character arcs and try to see sense and coherency where we can, but sometimes? The idea that something might be really wrong with this character or that they might even be an imposter is the writing choice that makes the most sense and is most supported by the facts as we know. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 27, 2021 01:48
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You guys are really overlooking the obvious here. If you found out you made out with your uncle you might go a bit crazy too
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Apr 27, 2021 02:04
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Sgt. Politeness posted:People on the internet have pointed out that she has amassed an awful lot of weath, notoriety, and power for someone who just undusted so unless she immediately came back and usurped an established underworld boss(which maybe through her SHIELD training/intel/history she was able to do this quickly) she's possibly been the Shadow Broker all along. Even if she got dusted she's still got two years on the run. Cap, Falcon, Natasha, and Wanda were in Wakanda and doing good or something but Sharon could have spent the whole time on the run and in Madripor compiling wealth and power. And theoretically she could have shored that up well enough that it was still there when she got back, or was in good enough position to use the chaos to secure more. Its all speculation, which certainly adds to the confusion and some people will always just form their opinion and refuse to see any other. But I dunno. It seems plausible to me that a super spy could pull it off in 2+ years. I kinda have this idea that she didn't get dusted but just used it to play dead and amass power. But just a baseless theory. BrianWilly posted:It's certainly realistic for her to have become more jaded and embittered by events, but again: she melted that guy's face. That's not just "a tad jarring." That's a vile, sadistic move and a very red flag.
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Apr 27, 2021 02:04
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STAC Goat posted:.... theoretically she could have shored that up well enough that it was still there when she got back... I don't know, 5 years is a long time and it was a turbulent 5 years. STAC Goat posted:I kinda have this idea that she didn't get dusted but just used it to play dead and amass power. But just a baseless theory. This on the other hand makes sense to me. I look forward to whatever explanation we get in, I don't know, Armor Wars?
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Apr 27, 2021 02:21
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Sgt. Politeness posted:I don't know, 5 years is a long time and it was a turbulent 5 years.
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Apr 27, 2021 02:30
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yea i totally am of the mind that Sharon is not a bad guy, yet not a good guy. She's everyone favorite, a morally grey character. She's on her own side, has her own agenda. She knows the US government are complete fuckers, so gently caress them. Other countries, ditto, why why not become her own side?
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Apr 27, 2021 02:52
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twistedmentat posted:yea i totally am of the mind that Sharon is not a bad guy, yet not a good guy. She's everyone favorite, a morally grey character. She's on her own side, has her own agenda. She knows the US government are complete fuckers, so gently caress them. Other countries, ditto, why why not become her own side? After the events of Winter Soldier it would be honestly insane to then be like "yeah, we should work with this other, new, better US government spy agency."
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Apr 27, 2021 02:57
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BrianWilly posted:We kinda do, though. In Winter Soldier she was one of the forefront agents who stood up against Hydra's insurrection, and in Civil War she's the one who emboldened Steve's resolve to do the right thing no matter who stands against you, by reciting the words of her aunt. It's very clear that Sharon was, at heart and everywhere else, a remarkably good person with good values instilled in her and this characterization was depicted more coherently than a whole lot of other "main" characters' arcs were. Honestly, the "No, you move" speech is a point in favour of her turning against the world making sense rather than being a point against it
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Apr 27, 2021 03:33
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Not really because she's explicitly telling Steve to stand strong in the face of something that he knows is immoral whereas as the the power broker she explicitly knows what she's doing is super immoral
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Apr 27, 2021 03:56
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The "no, you move" speech is obviously not a call for you to do whatever you want to do just because you're angry about things. C'mon now.  STAC Goat posted:I mean, she's a trained super spy of Nick Fury's SHIELD. I'm guessing she's killed "bad dudes" coldly before she went bad. And just as a reminder, the enemy, the "bad dude" here, is just some random henchman of a group that the show spent half its time trying to convince us were actually really sympathetic. Again, there are a lot of equivocations and rationalizations here -- some of which you admit are stretches -- for a character turn that would be much easier explained and would frankly make more sense by just saying "It ain't her."
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Apr 27, 2021 04:30
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I did always like how Sharon is sharing the inspirational words of a woman who is like 33% responsible for the events of Winter Soldier happening.
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Apr 27, 2021 04:43
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BrianWilly posted:The "no, you move" speech is obviously not a call for you to do whatever you want to do just because you're angry about things. C'mon now. That's where we disagree, then. Shooting someone in the head or throwing them off a building isn't any more honest and just than torturing them to death. In my world, there is no such thing as murdering someone politely. Some things aren't black and white, but murdering people because they're in your way is black and white. I get that you won't agree with me on this, hell, we're in a superhero thread, 99% of the people here probably aren't with me on this. But there are a lot of people in this world who disagree with the premise that shotgun blasts are any more moral than chemical warfare. Hell, even in just this show we already saw people like John Walker and Karli, who think they're fighting on the side of good, and who might start off acting as upstanding military combatants but who have no problem crossing the line when the time comes. Sharon's just another John Walker. Bad guys are bad guys and killing them is ok. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that line is as bright and shining as you seem to be implying. That's why it's bad to start crossing it.
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Apr 27, 2021 05:04
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Torturing someone and killing someone are different things. Killing people just because they are inconvenient is obviously morally bad, but I think torturing people is worse.
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Apr 27, 2021 05:07
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I did realize he was dead, like hosed up and unconscious for sure but I figured it was just an extreme measure to knock out a super soldier. Speaking of, did the guy Sam had to pull out of the river survive or was he accounted for in the explosion?
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Apr 27, 2021 05:47
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XboxPants posted:That's where we disagree, then. Shooting someone in the head or throwing them off a building isn't any more honest and just than torturing them to death. In my world, there is no such thing as murdering someone politely. Some things aren't black and white, but murdering people because they're in your way is black and white. Now obviously Disney can have some crappy moral takeaways, and this show in particular is not absolved from those...but do we really believe they're on the side where melting someone's face with mercury is just your regular run-of-the-mill spy procedure? That's why I asked for examples of other comparable characters in the MCU pulling these kinds of antics, of Nick Fury or Black Widow going so far as to painfully disfigure someone with poison when they could have incapacitated someone a hundred other ways. (And no, "they might have done it offscreen" is also not the right answer here) Like, if someone in a Zack Snyder film needlessly melted someone else's face off I'd be like "Well, nothing out of the ordinary here, moving on."  But here? Of all the different ways they could have written this encounter, acid bath is the way they went? The whole point is that this instance stands out as suspiciously egregious, especially for a character who has been literally nothing if not upright and praiseworthy in her previous appearances, which is what makes it a red flag that there's more going on here than her simply being a bit more jaded than she used to be.
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Apr 27, 2021 07:19
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Sharon went from SHIELD/HYDRA to the CIA before being disavowed for the crime of helping Captain America and stuck on wanted lists. Frankly, it'd be amazing if she didn't go full Bond villain at this point.
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Apr 27, 2021 10:49
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Another thing to note is that, when asked how she dealt with the flagsmasher guy, she brushed it off to Sam and did not say "I locked him in a car with mercury gas so his flesh melted off and he died swallowing his own pulped esophagus." The implication of that scene is that she did something especially cruel and unnecessary and then lied about it because she knew her friends would find it horrific.
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Apr 27, 2021 18:02
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Yeah, there's 'willing to use firearms while fighting hostage takers' and then there's 'do little a war crime, as a treat'. Also, I think from our perspective as comics nerds in the meta-text, it seems odd for Sharon to turn like that because the MCU has up to this point played pretty much as canon with almost every character. Backstories and specifics might vary, but no more than in a basic retcon or retelling in an issue of Avengers or Iron Man. But Sharon's never been an out and out villain in the comics, the closest is when she was brainwashed to kill Steve, and even that storyline was very clear to have her shown as sympathetic. You could argue that WandaVision did something similarly new with SWORD being outright malevolent and Agatha too, but those feel like less major departures as both of them have been shown as ambiguous at times in the source material. Plus, y'know, the whole scheduling thing.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:28
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Sitwell was a Hydra agent for the movies but was the ultimate Boy Scout of SHIELD in the comics (though he was turned into a Hydra agent for a time against his will).
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Apr 27, 2021 20:37
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, there's 'willing to use firearms while fighting hostage takers' and then there's 'do little a war crime, as a treat'. I mean, there was the Mandarin in IM3, but they've reversed course, and Ghost in Ant-man & The Wasp, too, but your overall point stands. Edit: oh and the Skrulls, too.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:56
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Hey, not every burnt spy can be Michael Weston.
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Apr 27, 2021 21:43
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When does this gas thing happen? I'm completely blanking. Did I miss a post credits somewhere?
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Apr 27, 2021 22:14
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Aphrodite posted:When does this gas thing happen? I'm completely blanking. Did I miss a post credits somewhere? The dude in the garage that Sharon does the 'oh sorry, silly weak lil me didn't see you there' gimmick with? Watch what happens to him again.
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Apr 27, 2021 22:17
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Dude has the super soldier serum, he'll bounce back.
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Apr 27, 2021 22:23
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