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Insurrectionist posted:Ah, so is the whole game borked at the moment then? Would I run into issues as a new player, or is this the kind of 'breaks the end-game on super-ultra hard difficulty' kind of issue I've seen a lot in other games? e: Better, more informative post at the end of the last page
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Apr 28, 2021 10:51
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Cease to Hope posted:A planet with one pop and a pop-making machine won't give you very much besides pop growth but it also costs you basically nothing. (This is a good use for habitats.) Honestly, habitats seem quite good. You can specialize them for research, alloy, or rare resource production, then just set and forget them with the growth building. They end up slowly building up more pops for you, and as an added bonus they are really good for getting additional research or alloys or rare resources in the process.
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Apr 28, 2021 10:59
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Dirk the Average posted:Honestly, habitats seem quite good. You can specialize them for research, alloy, or rare resource production, then just set and forget them with the growth building. They end up slowly building up more pops for you, and as an added bonus they are really good for getting additional research or alloys or rare resources in the process. As I understand it, for non-Void Dwellers, 40 pops are better on one single forge or lab world than the same number of pops split over multiple habitats, because the habs have reduced growth because of their relatively small carrying capacity, and because of the specialized buildings at 40 pop. You get more growth by just freezing the habs at 1 and shunting everyone to one halfway decent specialized planet, plus each pop is more productive because you have upgraded alloy forges and the alloy-boosting building (or whatever equivalent). This obviously doesn't go for Void Dwellers, though. And if you conquer a hab early on you might not yet have a decent specialized planet for them to go to yet.
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Apr 28, 2021 11:13
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Habitats have inherent bonuses to output on their specialisations though, so they're pretty useful for research/alloys IMO. I would move people onto habs rather than use them as pop exporters.
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Apr 28, 2021 11:48
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Darkrenown posted:Habitats have inherent bonuses to output on their specialisations though, so they're pretty useful for research/alloys IMO. I would move people onto habs rather than use them as pop exporters. This is only true of the Tech Habitat designation, and only true in the earliest part of the game. Tech habs are better early on per pop for tech output than non-ringworld planets because of their designation, but that only lasts until the planets get the Research Institute or Planetary Supercomputer, at which point habs produce less tech, produce fewer pops, and eat more CGs. Before you have the tech-boosting building, though, pop growth is probably more valuable anyway. Habitat and planet designations are the same for alloys/CGs, so planets are better because of upgraded Alloy Foundry and Ministry of Production/RPC, on top of the better pop growth. And habs are inherently just terrible for raw materials, in lots of ways, on top of not actually having better designations. The only thing I find habs do as well as planets is admin buildings, because those don't benefit very much from stacking a large planet. There's no 40-pop version of their building, and no 40-pop research-institute-style building. But even then, filling up a hab with bureaucrats means fewer baby bureaucrats unless your only alternative is a very lovely planet (with low habitability or very, very low carrying capacity). This is all from the POV of planet dwellers who happened to conquer a hab, or built one out of curiosity/necessity. I know Void Dwellers are different, but don't know enough about Void Dwellers to say how or why. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 12:08
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Wait... so do I want a gene clinic and robot plant on every planet or not?
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Apr 28, 2021 12:12
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Shumagorath posted:Wait... so do I want a gene clinic and robot plant on every planet or not? Robot plant or clone vats yes. (Not both, never both.) Gene clinic no, it takes forever to pay off.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:13
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Cease to Hope posted:Robot plant or clone vats yes. (Not both, never both.) Gene clinic no, it takes forever to pay off. It's much better than it was previously, since it also increases habitability.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:21
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Shumagorath posted:Wait... so do I want a gene clinic and robot plant on every planet or not?
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Apr 28, 2021 12:31
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Torrannor posted:It's much better than it was previously, since it also increases habitability.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:32
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Torrannor posted:It's much better than it was previously, since it also increases habitability. That only adds about 0.6-0.8% performance per med tech to the other pops unless it's just a tragically lovely planet, and you will often cap habitability as time goes on. It's still paying off 50 years from now, while tech or resources from a real job now are much more valuable than an extra pop or two 50-100 years from now. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 12:34
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Cease to Hope posted:That only adds about 0.6-0.8% performance per med tech to the other pops unless it's just a tragically lovely planet, and you will often cap habitability as time goes on. It's still paying off 50 years from now, while tech or resources from a real job now are much more valuable than an extra pop or two 50-100 years from now. I'm not saying it's the right building for every or even most planets, but it wasn't previously worth it at all, while it sometimes is now.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:44
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Torrannor posted:I'm not saying it's the right building for every or even most planets, but it wasn't previously worth it at all, while it sometimes is now. I still can't think of a situation where it is now. I think I'd always want those two pops doing something else.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:58
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Super secret tech on why I feel Gene Clinics are now totally worth it: Because indentured servants will use it to produce amenities, and in 3.0 slavers will find that 60%+ of their pops are xenos, and filling the basic entertainer+enforcer roles on new planets is actually a huge headache.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:03
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There's a couple of buildings i think need a passover for use - gene clinics and precincts, specifically. Precincts at least fill the niche of 'a criminal syndicate empire opened an office on one of my populous planets', like the psi-corp psionic building is something more in line with what i'm thinking, since they give both unity and -crime. Clinics, i guess, are OK on brand new planets when you want a few extra amenities and a touch of growth, but they definitely end up replaced with a holo-theater before long even then, since building slots are more of a premium on some planets. I would add fortresses, but i feel like they fill the niche of making inhabited chokepoint systems even more annoying to get through I find the only time i'm particularly big on clinics is when i'm using an immigration centric empire, with nomadic/land of opportunity/free haven, since with the immigration pop bonuses the value is slightly higher Sloober fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 13:17
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Sloober posted:There's a couple of buildings i think need a passover for use - gene clinics and precincts, specifically. Precincts at least fill the niche of 'a criminal syndicate empire opened an office on one of my populous planets', like the psi-corp psionic building is something more in line with what i'm thinking, since they give both unity and -crime. Clinics, i guess, are OK on brand new planets when you want a few extra amenities, but they definitely end up replaced with a holo-theater before long even then, since building slots are more of a premium on some planets. I would add fortresses, but i feel like they fill the niche of making inhabited chokepoint systems even more annoying to get through I don't really see why you want Precincts replaced from post? Spiritualists getting an unique improved anti-crime building seems fine to me? Sentinel Outposts though... Now those need a pass over, imo. Why aren't they upgradable, again?
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Apr 28, 2021 13:24
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niche use, bud, says right there. the only reason to mention psi corp is that it's a crime building that does more than just crime. Even the psi-corp bonus is mostly a waste, since every psionic empire i've played is swimming in unity and the splotch from the building is a drop in the bucket
Sloober fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 13:26
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Serephina posted:Super secret tech on why I feel Gene Clinics are now totally worth it: Luxury housing! I find I'm spending any unfilled building slots on industrial or raw material planets with housing buildings, because they drive up pop growth (by raising carrying capacity), cover amenities, and, most importantly, do not cost jobs. This doesn't work on tech worlds or bureaucrat worlds because they want to use all their buildings on productive buildings, granted. Plus, with enough positive happiness/stability modifiers, you do not actually need to keep amenities out of the red anyway. Negative amenities are fine as long as they're not driving stability too far down. I do not know why the slaves are happy that their masters are living in Paradise Domes, granted, but it works.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:28
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It does feel really weird that slaves and robots can't work in factories, though. Slaves have been working in factories almost exactly as long as factories have existed, and working in factories is the chief practical use for robots here in the real world in 2021. It just doesn't make a lot of sense that working in a factory is skilled labor, especially when working in a power plant isn't.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:37
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Void dwellers seem exceptionally strong now. You can get *almost* the same pop growth as a 40 size planet on each habitat (though not quite) you get to spam them over every orbital body in a system, meaning you get might get 4-5 habs in a system to the 1 from a planet dweller, can ignore habitability maluses for your primary species since they live on habs rather than the actual worlds, and provided you go out and get some other pops from the slave market, immigration, or conquest, or late game gene mod your primary pops, can still colonize regular planets without any ill effects. You could easily get the same pop growth of an empire 5x your physical size on the map until you hit soft empire cap for pops.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:37
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Cease to Hope posted:Luxury housing! I find I'm spending any unfilled building slots on industrial or raw material planets with housing buildings, because they drive up pop growth (by raising carrying capacity), cover amenities, and, most importantly, do not cost jobs. This doesn't work on tech worlds or bureaucrat worlds because they want to use all their buildings on productive buildings, granted. Good call, I might try the luxury housing next game. I'm also very hesitant to let non-slave pops fall unhappy, as it might have an effect on factions which I find intolerable. There's all sorts of voodoo going on back there, and the little tooltips that we now have [nice!] show some impressive attention to detail.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:38
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Nitrousoxide posted:Void dwellers seem exceptionally strong now. You can also just make an immigration treaty with your neighbor, which lets you make colony ships with their species. This lets you cheese the limitations of Shattered Ring and avoid Dwellers a bit, and all it takes is a friendly non-FE, non-collective neighbor. So, with a bit of luck, it's something you can do in the first decade. I don't know if this is a hidden trick or common knowledge but it was a big surprise to me when I learned it!
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Apr 28, 2021 13:46
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Insurrectionist posted:Ah, so is the whole game borked at the moment then? Would I run into issues as a new player, or is this the kind of 'breaks the end-game on super-ultra hard difficulty' kind of issue I've seen a lot in other games? The game is fine and fun. Goons are just goons. Plus there’s that guy who has to release a heavy sigh and come inform the thread every time he screenshots and submits a bug report. Which makes the game look worse (and makes that dude feel important? I’m not sure.)
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Apr 28, 2021 14:11
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Captain Monkey posted:The game is fine and fun. Goons are just goons. definitely still works, there's legitimate complaints (fwiw i believe the empire pop penalty is too high and needs to take into account galaxy/planet settings), but my experience has not devolved into being completely broken, outside of the 'on the shoulders of giants' occasionally breaking on the last step which precludes you from getting the final set of permanent bonuses. Also you just generally have to assume an AI will open an L-gate so plan for the grey tempest accordingly around ~2300ish
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Apr 28, 2021 14:19
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For whatever reason, the AI in my game is sleeping on L-gates. It's ~2350 and I've not been warned anyone is close. I'm about to pop em myself now.
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Apr 28, 2021 14:21
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Darkrenown posted:For whatever reason, the AI in my game is sleeping on L-gates. It's ~2350 and I've not been warned anyone is close. I'm about to pop em myself now.
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Apr 28, 2021 14:30
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Darkrenown posted:For whatever reason, the AI in my game is sleeping on L-gates. It's ~2350 and I've not been warned anyone is close. I'm about to pop em myself now. A large part of that is that the AI still picks techs pretty much randomly. L cluster is kinda garbage for the tech costs so much of the time anyway.
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Apr 28, 2021 14:59
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Sloober posted:definitely still works, there's legitimate complaints (fwiw i believe the empire pop penalty is too high and needs to take into account galaxy/planet settings), but my experience has not devolved into being completely broken, outside of the 'on the shoulders of giants' occasionally breaking on the last step which precludes you from getting the final set of permanent bonuses. Also you just generally have to assume an AI will open an L-gate so plan for the grey tempest accordingly around ~2300ish For sure. But it’s still playable even with the odd quest failure and a slightly too high pop growth penalty. Neither of which a person playing the game with fresh eyes is going to notice in the next 6 months to a year of playing what is, otherwise, a pretty fun game.
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Apr 28, 2021 15:01
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Dirk the Average posted:I think my favorite thing to do in this game is turtle up behind starbases and just not build a fleet. If you can get a couple friendly AIs nearby, they'll pretty much see you as someone they want to vassalize, and will try to diplomatically maneuver to get you into a defensive pact or guarantee your independence. Keeps you safe while you just tech up and build an overwhelming advantage. Just wanting to point out that scaling difficulty (unless something changed that I missed) means that the AI starts with *zero* bonuses and scales up to the difficulty bonus at the designated late game date. If you're wanting a chill start but still want the AI to eventually be able to build lots of stuff its ok, but in general its a gigantic nerf to the AI. Even on admiral your approach should only work if you spawn a neighbor who already wants to do friendly/federation type things, but like half of the AI types would probably just attack you. Serephina posted:Good call, I might try the luxury housing next game. I'm also very hesitant to let non-slave pops fall unhappy, as it might have an effect on factions which I find intolerable. There's all sorts of voodoo going on back there, and the little tooltips that we now have [nice!] show some impressive attention to detail. If you want to try a somewhat hilarious build, do a max amenity hive mind. So take +amenity trait (+20%), -amenity civic (-15% and a +5% hab), and the unity perk (it also has -10% amenity). After taking the synchronicity tree (synapse drones produce +2 amenities) you barely need any maintenance drones at all, and its pretty easy to fill up enough to max the stability bonus which together with another tradition in that tree puts you at 75% stability which is +15% resources from workers. Start with wet planets and tree of life and you can easily afford your clone chambers on every planet while maintaining resource output. Hive worlds are another +10% worker output, and there is an edict unlocked in domination for another 10% (on top of the 5% for the tradition). Which transitions excessively well to crisis if you want to do that (since you pay straight minerals for the special ships). Even without going for that, just being able to devote nearly nothing to amenity production is really nice IMO.
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Apr 28, 2021 15:07
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Insurrectionist posted:I see a new DLC recently released (yikes at that review score) so I'm guessing they're not gonna go on sale again for a while, bummer. Now go check out the latest EU4 DLC
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Apr 28, 2021 15:35
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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They are gonna be doing an open beta of changes to address the concerns about late game growth. I think another devlog mentioned tuning down the empire wide impact.quote:This week (date to be confirmed) we will be publishing an open beta that includes a revision of some of the population growth changes. The objective behind the changes introduced in the 3.0.3 Open Beta is to address some of the concerns raised by the community regarding mid and late game population growth.
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Apr 28, 2021 15:43
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They do need to change it. Having such a hard cap on it makes peaceful builds significantly worse than warlike builds since your pop growth at the "soft" cap is basically 0 but warlike builds are completely unaffected since you're snatching up other empire's pops.
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Apr 28, 2021 16:29
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Insurrectionist posted:I see a new DLC recently released (yikes at that review score) so I'm guessing they're not gonna go on sale again for a while, bummer. Keep in mind that games where you can play a single giant rts game for dozens of hours typically invites the loudest grognards, I looked at those reviews and just laughed. The old thread title was extremely accurate, not sure why it changed. There are tier lists of the expansions online with a couple prolific youtubers, they're generally accurate. Apocalypse, Utopia, Ancient Relics and Leviathans are probably all on sale or likely to go on sale and the best; though some of the empire type ones can significantly change how you play, I like megacorp a lot and many people love synthetic dawn. Mr. Crow fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 16:32
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wilderthanmild posted:They are gonna be doing an open beta of changes to address the concerns about late game growth. I think another devlog mentioned tuning down the empire wide impact. That's good. The new economy overall seems to work really well, it's just that the growth cap makes it weird at the end. Though I have to say, I have not noticed a serious improvement in late game performance. But maybe that's because there's a War in Heaven raging. e: Or my decade old computer showing it's age. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 16:46
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There is definitely a giant improvement in late game performance because of the pop changes.
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Apr 28, 2021 16:50
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PittTheElder posted:That's good. The new economy overall seems to work really well, it's just that the growth cap makes it weird at the end. i got my largest late game performance boost by turning off xeno-compatibility, funny enough. also cuts down on the freeze as you try to set a colony ship late game in a xenophile empire since it'll only have like, 20 species instead of 135719750192780197450195782034496
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Apr 28, 2021 16:58
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[Ring Origin] + [Horizon Event] is pretty good. Started in a multi-system. Had so many planets I became galactic emperor off one colonized system. Unfortunately, ring-dwellers don't get transformed for Tomb-world habitability. (Spoiler: The Interloper is repaired into a size 5 tomb world  )
Accretionist fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Apr 28, 2021 |
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Apr 28, 2021 17:04
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Seems like the L gates might currently be bugged to always give Drakes at the moment. Anyone had a non-drake Dick run?
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Apr 28, 2021 19:19
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Darkrenown posted:Seems like the L gates might currently be bugged to always give Drakes at the moment. Anyone had a non-drake Dick run? Grey tempest twice.
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Apr 28, 2021 19:23
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Nitrousoxide posted:They do need to change it. Having such a hard cap on it makes peaceful builds significantly worse than warlike builds since your pop growth at the "soft" cap is basically 0 but warlike builds are completely unaffected since you're snatching up other empire's pops. i hate fighting wars in this so my nice guy empire just sits there and builds tons of infrastructure that i can absolutely afford and it sits there for years unused. sucks. good that they are responding to crit.
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Apr 28, 2021 19:25
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