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site posted:i mean, they literally just copy pasted siancong over vietnam so i don't know what the gently caress Jesus
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Apr 30, 2021 18:09
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Apparently reading around this is something Busiek came up with in 2000 and was going to be part of his run on Iron Man. He wrote on Twitter last month that it's not a Vietnam replacement and some characters that still have meaningful events that tied to Vietnam will retain that tie such as Frank Castle. He also said it's all his idea and if it fumbles then like everything else that doesn't work it'll be forgotten. So it's all on him to make it work.
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Apr 30, 2021 18:56
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X-O posted:Apparently reading around this is something Busiek came up with in 2000 and was going to be part of his run on Iron Man. He wrote on Twitter last month that it's not a Vietnam replacement and some characters that still have meaningful events that tied to Vietnam will retain that tie such as Frank Castle. He also said it's all his idea and if it fumbles then like everything else that doesn't work it'll be forgotten. So it's all on him to make it work. It was also part of Waid's History of the Marvel Universe. But yeah I tend to agree that it's being done sloppily.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:32
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Reminder Busiek is responsible for the character assassination of Madalyn Pryor.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:35
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how? he came up with the Jean Grey wasn't actually Phoenix loophole to get her back but he wasn't writing X-Factor or X-Men when they went all in on Maddie being an evil demon possessed clone and also Cyclops did nothing wrong and also also Maddie and Jean are the same person somehow angles
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Apr 30, 2021 20:41
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Yeah Busiek's proposal for bringing Jean back didn't include a footnote that said "also make sure madelyn pryor is treated like poo poo"
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Apr 30, 2021 21:08
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Marvel continuity is already messed up...I don't have a big problem with Siancong serving as a partial replacement for situations where it wouldn't make sense to still keep everything tied to Vietnam or other particular moments in real world history. It won't work for everything, but for minor or secondary cases, it's not a bad concept in theory.Blockhouse posted:Yeah Busiek's proposal for bringing Jean back didn't include a footnote that said "also make sure madelyn pryor is treated like poo poo" It seems like the people actually in charge of editorial (and other writers like Louise Simonson) didn't really like her, outside of Claremont himself...so yeah.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:22
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X-O posted:He wrote on Twitter last month that it's not a Vietnam replacement and some characters that still have meaningful events that tied to Vietnam will retain that tie such as Frank Castle. Wait, then like what's the point? I thought Castle was basically the reason for Fake War since Vietnam is getting further and further away and Castle doesn't have any excuses for beating the sliding timescale like Captain America being a popsicle or Namor being a different species. I mean the only other thing I can think of is making sure Reed Richards and the Thing are still vets and like... is that really necessary?
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Apr 30, 2021 21:27
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That page is dumb, they definitely shouldnt have just written over Vietnam like that, even if it "still happened". Just make up something a little original if you want a stomping ground for millitary heroes, it's not like there's a dearth of source material to draw from and amalgamate. Or just blame the Inhumans. Baby, we liberated Attilan.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:34
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TwoPair posted:Wait, then like what's the point? I thought Castle was basically the reason for Fake War since Vietnam is getting further and further away and Castle doesn't have any excuses for beating the sliding timescale like Captain America being a popsicle or Namor being a different species. I mean the only other thing I can think of is making sure Reed Richards and the Thing are still vets and like... is that really necessary? Even then, it's not like their service has to be tied to a specific war. People do serve in the military and even get deployed when there isn't a major war. I mean, gently caress, Rucka tried to do that series where he basically made a female Punisher by smooshing Frank's backstory with the Bride from Kill Bill but making her service be in Iraq.
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Apr 30, 2021 21:35
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Skwirl posted:Reminder Busiek is responsible for the character assassination of Madalyn Pryor. I bet that bitch Mark Waid character assassinated Cassandra Cain
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Apr 30, 2021 21:35
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TwoPair posted:Wait, then like what's the point? I thought Castle was basically the reason for Fake War since Vietnam is getting further and further away and Castle doesn't have any excuses for beating the sliding timescale like Captain America being a popsicle or Namor being a different species. I mean the only other thing I can think of is making sure Reed Richards and the Thing are still vets and like... is that really necessary? In Frank Castle's case, you can argue it's a very important part of the character to keep him tied to Vietnam and someone will come up with an explanation if needed. Yet other heroes played a role in the conflict albeit in a far more trivial or unimportant manner, such as Daredevil going there as an entertainer for the troops (I didn't know that before this week, but it happened), so you can afford to move many of those over to another location with little consequence and/or without making them come across as super old. And besides, you can use it to tell a different story there in the process, which is apparently what they're trying to do. wielder fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 21:37
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I'm finally fully caught up on all the x-men stuff and have started to poke around in other marvel stuff. I don't see a lot of individual threads so I will post stuff here but sorry if this is the wrong place. drat that Phoenix stuff is awful. What happened to Jason Aaron? I always say "I don't like when Spider-Man goes mystical" but lately they are the only stories I end up reading it seems; I read half the latest issue up and decided to all the way back to the beginning of this arc, which was almost a year ago. There's something interesting in the Sin Eater arc but him just Boring Jokerfying mobs is not it. I kind of wanted to see Spidey have to struggle with a villain that murders bad people, for like, then minutes, and then they arise baptized and he has their power. And should these people be in jail if they are truly rehabilitated from their crimes? Some interesting stuff to think about that it didn't seem like the story was interested in, other than Miles mentioning the implications and everyone just ignoring him.
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Apr 30, 2021 22:04
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah Busiek's proposal for bringing Jean back didn't include a footnote that said "also make sure madelyn pryor is treated like poo poo" Along those lines who decided that Storm only beat Cyclops for the X-Men leader spot because Cyclops was holding back and/or Maddie was influencing the fight?
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Apr 30, 2021 22:39
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Dawgstar posted:Along those lines who decided that Storm only beat Cyclops for the X-Men leader spot because Cyclops was holding back and/or Maddie was influencing the fight? When the gently caress did that ever come up? Because that is absolute bullshit.
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Apr 30, 2021 22:43
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frank castle has died several times and became an angel once. there was also his recovery from being frankencastle by possessing the bloodstone for a while. he can be as physically young or old as necessary while retaining his vietnam origin.
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Apr 30, 2021 22:50
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:frank castle has died several times and became an angel once. there was also his recovery from being frankencastle by possessing the bloodstone for a while. he can be as physically young or old as necessary while retaining his vietnam origin. Yeah, it's like Magneto and the Holocaust.
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Apr 30, 2021 22:55
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Ben grimm is pseudo canonically gonna live for thousands of years and reed richards is made of rubber and you could magic up some bullshit to say he's immortal like plastic man so I don't know why either of them have to not be in ww2 either
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Apr 30, 2021 22:55
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Dawgstar posted:Along those lines who decided that Storm only beat Cyclops for the X-Men leader spot because Cyclops was holding back and/or Maddie was influencing the fight? IIRC that was Claremont; while he originally intended that scene to be about Storm's growth and finally giving Scott a reason he could step back from leadership, once he settled on Maddie becoming the Goblin Queen he tossed that in.
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Apr 30, 2021 23:10
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Skwirl posted:When the gently caress did that ever come up? Because that is absolute bullshit. I feel like it was brought up during the Inferno climax, but DCB did remind me it was Claremont and kind of assassinating his own characters.
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Apr 30, 2021 23:14
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I guess it works as Claremont retconning why Scott was able to both leave the X-Men so quickly, then when Jean comes back leave his wife and child so quickly it's understandable, but it feel like Claremont doing Storm dirty, which is loving unbelievable.
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Apr 30, 2021 23:20
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site posted:Ben grimm is pseudo canonically gonna live for thousands of years and reed richards is made of rubber and you could magic up some bullshit to say he's immortal like plastic man so I don't know why either of them have to not be in ww2 either I don’t know if something like Siancong is the solution or not but you can’t have characters like that tied to WWII. If you do then too bad about Sue and Johnny being dead, Valeria being in her late sixties and Franklin being overpowered super god making all other heroes obsolete.
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Apr 30, 2021 23:52
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i'm not entirely sure i'm understanding your post correctly, franklin is super god, and both kids were 6yo or younger for 30 years, not to mention that his (if he had it) theoretical immortality will never matter because, as these are serialized comics, they will never age except for alt future stories that can be ignored safely. i mean, no one has made a stink that hickman made grimm age super slowly after he got married so naturally he will outlive alicia by thousands of years
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May 1, 2021 00:05
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I'm saying that if you date Ben and Reed to WWII that ages the other as well. That would mean Sue and Johnny are most likely currently dead. Valeria would likely be in her sixties. And Frankin would be ageless but he'd be a super god right now and there would be no need for anyone else to ever do anything.
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May 1, 2021 00:08
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this was all true up until 2019 and literally no one gave a poo poo
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May 1, 2021 00:09
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Flash Thompson is the character whose military service has to slide around, since he has to be the same age as Peter Parker.
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May 1, 2021 00:13
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X-O posted:I'm saying that if you date Ben and Reed to WWII that ages the other as well. That would mean Sue and Johnny are most likely currently dead. Valeria would likely be in her sixties. And Frankin would be ageless but he'd be a super god right now and there would be no need for anyone else to ever do anything. Unstable particles. They're doing a Fantastic Four Life Story mini like Zdarsky did with Spider-Man based on them aging in real time since the 60s. To be honest, the thing hardest to square with the F4 back story is why they would do such a dumb space mission if they exist after the actual moon landing.
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May 1, 2021 00:14
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I'm not American but can't you just sub the war in Iraq or Afghanistan for Vietnam these days and lose virtually nothing as far as the character's trauma goes?
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May 1, 2021 00:15
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Nilbop posted:I'm not American but can't you just sub the war in Iraq or Afghanistan for Vietnam these days and lose virtually nothing as far as the character's trauma goes? A big issue is during Vietnam we still had the draft. Not true for later wars.
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May 1, 2021 00:16
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site posted:this was all true up until 2019 and literally no one gave a poo poo I get what you're saying and you're right up to a point. Right now everything in the modern Marvel Universe as we know it actually happened well after 9/11. Al Ewing laid the sliding timeline out pretty plainly in Ultimates in that events of importance slide forward. That means the FF had their accident right now in like 2006ish or so which is what kickstarted the modern Marvel Universe. Now if you never want to go back and reference Reed and Ben type war stories that's all good and fine. But if you do want to bring those up then you have to attach to either a different real war that you'll eventually not be able to tie them to in 20 more years or you can just make up a fake one that slides along with the characters. Now I personally think tying them to a fake war is fine. Where the problem comes in is that Siancong is just too similar to Vietnam as pointed out. If you have story points that are going to draw on that similarity I get it but it could get very tough to balance that. The best thing to have done would to make a fake war that's not a clear renaming of a real one. If Busiek does enough to differentiate Siancong from Vietnam it might work. But it's definitely not going to be easy.
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May 1, 2021 00:18
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Nilbop posted:I'm not American but can't you just sub the war in Iraq or Afghanistan for Vietnam these days and lose virtually nothing as far as the character's trauma goes? personally, i'd say that the trauma soldiers experience in battle may be similiar (which you could probably say about every war, but i'm no ptsd therapist), but that takes a reductionist view of both the wider geopolitics of the time and the reason soliders are there in the first place, i.e. in vietnam we were lied to from the start and men were drafted into combat and it was widely known by troops for years that they were being thrown into the meat grinder, whereas in the middle east you had large numbers of people volunteer for the military post 9/11 and although they were experiencing awful stuff they still believed for a long time the invasion was right. to tie this back into marvel characters, both ben and reed iirc volunteered for military service in ww2. frank castle also volunteered for service in vietnam, and a large portion of his backstory is centered both on his need for combat in a war that is rapidly coming to an end, but also his recognition of the MIC as an immoral system that was tossing away the lives of young men for profit, which becomes a theme in his stories of how he despises the military site fucked around with this message at 00:29 on May 1, 2021 |
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May 1, 2021 00:24
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X-O posted:I get what you're saying and you're right up to a point. Right now everything in the modern Marvel Universe as we know it actually happened well after 9/11. Al Ewing laid the sliding timeline out pretty plainly in Ultimates in that events of importance slide forward. That means the FF had their accident right now in like 2006ish or so which is what kickstarted the modern Marvel Universe. Now if you never want to go back and reference Reed and Ben type war stories that's all good and fine. But if you do want to bring those up then you have to attach to either a different real war that you'll eventually not be able to tie them to in 20 more years or you can just make up a fake one that slides along with the characters. Now I personally think tying them to a fake war is fine. Where the problem comes in is that Siancong is just too similar to Vietnam as pointed out. If you have story points that are going to draw on that similarity I get it but it could get very tough to balance that. The best thing to have done would to make a fake war that's not a clear renaming of a real one. If Busiek does enough to differentiate Siancong from Vietnam it might work. But it's definitely not going to be easy. There's also the huge issue of conflating the reasons we fought in WW2 and the reasons we fought in Vietnam. Both morally and politically US involvement in those wars is very, very different. If you aren't going to have the characters age in real time just say "the war" for a story where it's important.
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May 1, 2021 00:24
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X-O posted:I get what you're saying and you're right up to a point. Right now everything in the modern Marvel Universe as we know it actually happened well after 9/11. Al Ewing laid the sliding timeline out pretty plainly in Ultimates in that events of importance slide forward. That means the FF had their accident right now in like 2006ish or so which is what kickstarted the modern Marvel Universe. Now if you never want to go back and reference Reed and Ben type war stories that's all good and fine. But if you do want to bring those up then you have to attach to either a different real war that you'll eventually not be able to tie them to in 20 more years or you can just make up a fake one that slides along with the characters. Now I personally think tying them to a fake war is fine. Where the problem comes in is that Siancong is just too similar to Vietnam as pointed out. If you have story points that are going to draw on that similarity I get it but it could get very tough to balance that. The best thing to have done would to make a fake war that's not a clear renaming of a real one. If Busiek does enough to differentiate Siancong from Vietnam it might work. But it's definitely not going to be easy. if you're really concerned about it, you could just never have reed do military service at all in because it never comes up and ben can be a pilot without ever being in combat just fine
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May 1, 2021 00:40
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:IIRC that was Claremont; while he originally intended that scene to be about Storm's growth and finally giving Scott a reason he could step back from leadership, once he settled on Maddie becoming the Goblin Queen he tossed that in. Yeah, if I remember it correctly, his plan had been for Scott to permanently retire to Alaska with Madelyne and baby Nate. Cyclops getting his rear end kicked in that issue was a torch-passing moment, not a screwjob. Then Bob Layton and Jim Shooter suddenly got a hankering for a book that starred the original five X-Men and had Scott drop Maddie like a hot rock to go chase Jean. Claremont subsequently tried to make lemonade out of those particular lemons with the Goblin Queen arc, although he was pretty vocal for years afterward that he thought ditching Maddie like that had permanently ruined Scott as a character.
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May 1, 2021 02:07
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah Busiek's proposal for bringing Jean back didn't include a footnote that said "also make sure madelyn pryor is treated like poo poo" He shares as much responsibility for what happened with Madelyn Pryor as Oppenheimer shares with what happened to Hiroshima.
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May 1, 2021 02:46
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Skwirl posted:To be honest, the thing hardest to square with the F4 back story is why they would do such a dumb space mission if they exist after the actual moon landing. Reed Richards doing something dumb is the boilerplate Fantastic Four first act.
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May 1, 2021 02:56
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Making the Punisher be the product of the same war that the FF fought in makes no sense at all. You can't flatten commentary on real life history like that.
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May 1, 2021 03:09
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Cloks posted:Reed Richards doing something dumb is the boilerplate Fantastic Four first act. But in the original they were explicitly trying to beat the USSR to space before Yuri Gagarin was a thing so it made more sense. That's why the newer versions make it interdimensional travel, who the gently caress are you trying to beat to space if you get your powers in 2006?
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May 1, 2021 03:24
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osama bin laden
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May 1, 2021 03:26
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site posted:osama bin laden He got into space in like 1997 using CIA money.
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May 1, 2021 03:28
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