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Should troll Fancy Pelosi be allowed to stay? This poll is closed. |
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160 | 32.92% |
| No |
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mango sentinel posted:What are you on about? Overall tobacco use by highschool students was on a downward trend in the early 2000s and vapes have completely reversed that trend. Like 1 in 4 teenagers vape. Vaping hasn't reversed the trend. Smoking has fallen off a lot in the last decade. Lumping vaping in with smoking is disingenuous at best. Also it's not true 1 in 4 teens vape and very few do so with any regularity. Dependence/addiction among teens who do use vapes is significantly lower than those that smoke. I know this runs counter to a lot of what's out there but the underlying data supports it. There was a lot of criticism from people in public health that the NYTS data was being withheld as the whole "teen epidemic" thing was ramping up. Once researchers got the data everyone quickly realized there was a lot of context missing and that figures were being wildly distorted. https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/january/youth-vaping.html https://academic.oup.com/ntr/article-abstract/23/3/447/5701081?redirectedFrom=fulltext On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 19:20
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mango sentinel posted:What are you on about? Overall tobacco use by highschool students was on a downward trend in the early 2000s and vapes have completely reversed that trend. Like 1 in 4 teenagers vape. It sounds like the OP is making some dumb distinction that although vaping nicotine is addictive and leads to more vaping nicotine it's not 'smoking'.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:20
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Murgos posted:It sounds like the OP is making some dumb distinction that although vaping nicotine is addictive and leads to more vaping nicotine it's not 'smoking'. That's not a dumb distinction to make. Claiming they are the same is like saying an apple is just as bad for you as a can of soda because they are both sweet.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:24
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On Terra Firma posted:Vaping hasn't reversed the trend. Smoking has fallen off a lot in the last decade. Lumping vaping in with smoking is disingenuous at best. Also 1 in 4 teens do not vape and very few do so with any regularity. Dependence/addiction among teens who do use vapes is significantly lower than those that smoke. I know this runs counter to a lot of what's out there but the underlying data supports it. There was a lot of criticism from people in public health that the NYTS data was being withheld as the whole "teen epidemic" thing was ramping up. Once researchers got the data everyone quickly realized there was a lot of context missing and that figures were being wildly distorted. I think you need to update your sources. Your "very few do so with any regularity" claim is 100% wrong, ~60% of high school e-cig users surveyed from this past year use it 20+ days within a 30 day period: https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/get-latest-facts-teen-tobacco-use 
Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 19:29
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The war cry against tobacco was always how obviously unhealthy and addictive it was. That's not going to transfer over to vaping 1:1 as people are trying because if it is unhealthy as smoking nobody seems to have any data. Nicotine ain't ideal but neither is caffeine and every school in America has caffeine dispensers installed. If it's just about them being kids and it being addictive, framing it as a moral calculation would be best. Join together with people fighting to end loot boxes in games to stop companies from getting young minds hooked on profitable modes of consumption There also needs to be a discussion about vaping things that DONT have nicotine and how that relates to it all It probably is notable that this will end up being a battle with the same big companies as before lol
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Apr 30, 2021 19:38
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I don't have the numbers on me, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol contributes to a similar number of deaths as tobacco, both directly and indirectly (drunk driving, domestic abuse, mental illness). If that's true, should we also be banning alcohol that doesn't taste like poo poo? I'm not black and I don't smoke but the menthol ban definitely reeks of paternalism.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:39
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Kalit posted:I think you need to update your sources. Your "very few do so with any regularity" claim is 100% wrong, ~60% of high school e-cig users surveyed from this past year use it 20+ days within a 30 day period: https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/get-latest-facts-teen-tobacco-use The link you sent says 40%, not 60%. So 40% are using 20 or more days, and about half of that are using them every day. I'd classify the 40% as regular users. So a little under 8% of all HS students are regular users. That's not 1/4th of all high schoolers. Fister Roboto posted:I don't have the numbers on me, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol contributes to a similar number of deaths as tobacco, both directly and indirectly (drunk driving, domestic abuse, mental illness). If that's true, should we also be banning alcohol that doesn't taste like poo poo? Smoking kills like 450-500k a year I think. Drunk driving, alcoholism, domestic abuse, etc all play a huge role too in measuring the impact of alcohol on society but in terms of raw deaths smoking is about the worst thing we do to ourselves. On Terra Firma fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 19:41
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't have the numbers on me, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol contributes to a similar number of deaths as tobacco, both directly and indirectly (drunk driving, domestic abuse, mental illness). If that's true, should we also be banning alcohol that doesn't taste like poo poo? Tobacco kills 5x as many people in the U.S. as alcohol does.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:42
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On Terra Firma posted:The link you sent says 40%, not 60%. So 40% are using 20 or more days, and about half of that are using them every day. I'd classify the 40% as regular users. So a little under 8% of all HS students are regular users. That's not 1/4th of all high schoolers. Whoops, I misread that. Thanks for the correction.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:45
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At any rate the key point here is not to compare vaping to smoking 1:1, but that kids love flavored smokeables.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:46
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Fister Roboto posted:reeks of paternalism. This is kind of an issue with any consumer-level public health intervention, though, and it's never really great policy to just say "gently caress it, go wild". The debate is always over where to draw the lines and how to discourage negative behaviors. Obviously, we did try prohibition once, and that went poorly. Regarding vaping, it's gonna be pretty drat hard for it to be as bad as tobacco, but even an otherwise harmless highly addictive substance would be a public health concern.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:50
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mango sentinel posted:At any rate the key point here is not to compare vaping to smoking 1:1, but that kids love flavored smokeables. That I agree with. I think the menthol ban is a good thing. Anything that chips away at combustibles is a positive in my book and menthols are a big part of that. I just don't want to see it all lumped in together with adults vaping mango flavored whatever to get off cigarettes.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:51
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On Terra Firma posted:That's not a dumb distinction to make. Claiming they are the same is like saying an apple is just as bad for you as a can of soda because they are both sweet. Stating that consuming a drug as addictive as heroin is okay because, 'it's not technically smoking tobacco and we don't know yet what the long term health effects are' smacks of a disingenuous attempt to confuse people.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:54
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mango sentinel posted:At any rate the key point here is not to compare vaping to smoking 1:1, but that kids love flavored smokeables. yeah, the nicotine industry is definitely all-in on vaping at this point as a way of creating a new generation of addicts now that kids don't think smoking is cool any longer
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Apr 30, 2021 19:56
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Murgos posted:Stating that consuming a drug as addictive as heroin is okay because, 'it's not technically smoking tobacco and we don't know yet what the long term health effects are' smacks of a disingenuous attempt to confuse people. Nicotine isn't what kills people but sure.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:57
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Are there stats on kids/people moving from vape to cigs? Being so new, I doubt it's complete but would be interesting if there was a study, at least in interest in trying cigs after vaping. *anecdotally... I was in OKC a few years ago and everyone was vaping. Old oil men fresh off the fields were puffing little black pens all over the place. I went back fairly recently and everyone is back on the cigarettes. Almost didn't see any vapers except for the teens at the mall. Burning_Monk fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 19:58
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Epic High Five posted:The war cry against tobacco was always how obviously unhealthy and addictive it was. That's not going to transfer over to vaping 1:1 as people are trying because if it is unhealthy as smoking nobody seems to have any data. Nicotine ain't ideal but neither is caffeine and every school in America has caffeine dispensers installed. The major distinction I'd draw here between the two is that nicotine overuse results in physical dependence and constantly fluctuating withdrawal symptoms (as in, it starts messing with you immediately as soon as you stop taking a dose), while caffeine overuse has very little additional effect past minor withdrawal symptoms that take a day or more to happen and only even show up in something like 5% of people†. Or, in other words, nicotine can inherently really gently caress with you in the long term, while chugging whole coffeepots for caffeine will only make you weird for a couple of days, even in children. † There was a lab study where 11% of participants reported withdrawal symptoms from caffeine, but then only half of those showed any measurable symptoms at all in a lab setting.
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Apr 30, 2021 19:58
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On Terra Firma posted:Nicotine isn't what kills people but sure.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:00
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Burning_Monk posted:Are there stats on kids/people moving from vape to cigs? Being so new, I doubt it's complete but would be interesting if there was a study, at least in interest in trying cigs after vaping. There were some studies done that showed there was a small gateway effect that were later debunked once they took into account patterns of risky behavior of those that dabbled in both. Basically if you're going to be the cool kid taking drags in the bathroom you're probably down to try either.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:01
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I'm pretty sure that Terra Firma did a thread about this a yearish ago. I can try to dig it up later if people are still interested.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:02
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't have the numbers on me, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol contributes to a similar number of deaths as tobacco, both directly and indirectly (drunk driving, domestic abuse, mental illness). If that's true, should we also be banning alcohol that doesn't taste like poo poo? its a lot tougher to gently caress with food additives. like if flavoring alcohol is illegal, is flavoring cola illegal? is making cocktails illegal? tobacco is in its own class of products from a regulatory standpoint Fister Roboto posted:I'm not black and I don't smoke but the menthol ban definitely reeks of paternalism. the menthol ban is a reversal of a specific exception to flavored cigarettes, basically all flavored cigs were banned except menthol because that could be argued as discriminatory to a predominantly african american market fool of sound posted:I'm pretty sure that Terra Firma did a thread about this a yearish ago. I can try to dig it up later if people are still interested. is vaping a stop-smoking alternative or just a side-step plot by big tobacco to escape its death spiral? read a bunch of really bad posts to find out! https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3900149
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Apr 30, 2021 20:04
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fool of sound posted:I'm pretty sure that Terra Firma did a thread about this a yearish ago. I can try to dig it up later if people are still interested. I did and it just kind of devolved into the same direction this is going. It's probably worse than gun-chat.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:04
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On Terra Firma posted:There were some studies done that showed there was a small gateway effect that were later debunked once they took into account patterns of risky behavior of those that dabbled in both. Basically if you're going to be the cool kid taking drags in the bathroom you're probably down to try either. There is always a loving Donny and Craig in every school. thanks
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Apr 30, 2021 20:05
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Burning_Monk posted:Are there stats on kids/people moving from vape to cigs? Being so new, I doubt it's complete but would be interesting if there was a study, at least in interest in trying cigs after vaping. Vaping kids are substantially more likely to move to cigarettes (depends on study, usually around 3x) but the overall number is still fairly low and decreasing, even as vape use increases. Intuitively that makes sense regardless, as it is now pretty weird to start in on cigarettes first. So it's kind of a mixed bag, but overall, looking at it as a cigarette gateway isn't really fair.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:05
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It's all loving paternalism. We want to be Europe with All the cool product bans but no safety nets.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:09
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Addition economies are bad. It takes generations (and sometimes horribly unsuccessful international wars) to undo them, and usually slave labor to sustain them. I like coffee and live in Seattle and caffeine has less negative effects than some other addictive options, but there probably shouldn't be a Starbucks at all. Are video games addictive? Am I mormon?
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Apr 30, 2021 20:12
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Glory to Italia!
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Psychologically, sure, but it's a lot harder to die from complications of video gaming (carpal tunnel can't get that bad)
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Apr 30, 2021 20:15
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DC isn't going to become a state even if the filibuster gets taken away https://twitter.com/postpolitics/status/1388209947662508040
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Apr 30, 2021 20:18
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:DC isn't going to become a state even if the filibuster gets taken away What does this dipshit need now?
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Apr 30, 2021 20:22
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TulliusCicero posted:What does this dipshit need now? I mean from his perspective he'd be giving up all of his leverage so it makes sense.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:24
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How does he feel about the DC statehood plus ten billion for West Virginia bill?
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Apr 30, 2021 20:24
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haveblue posted:How does he feel about the DC statehood plus ten billion for West Virginia bill? Like it would be the last time he gets to ask for 10 billion, so no.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:25
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Night10194 posted:Like it would be the last time he gets to ask for 10 billion, so no. What about the DC Statehood Plus Ten Billion A Year For West Virginia Every Year bill
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Apr 30, 2021 20:26
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Menthol vapes aren't being banned, can't you just do that if you want a smoother nicotine hit? It feels the same and your clothes and mouth won't smell like rear end after you're done.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:26
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On Terra Firma posted:Nicotine isn't what kills people but sure. Is death the only long term issue you are willing to contemplate? What about a drug, that costs money, that gives you pain unless you continue to take more of it? Don't you think that's harmful? Especially as its targeted towards the poor and children? Why should it be given a pass just because it's less than lethal? Do we know that long term nicotine addiction doesn't lead to other health effects that indicate a shortened life span?
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Apr 30, 2021 20:28
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Night10194 posted:Like it would be the last time he gets to ask for 10 billion, so no. With any luck, 2022 will be the last time regardless...
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Apr 30, 2021 20:30
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Biden spoke at the 50th anniversary of Amtrak today, dude was in his element https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZI1cWJl44c First time I've heard him talk about the AJP funding the building of high speed rail (he specifically mentioned Charlotte to Atlanta) in addition to just expanding the lines
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Apr 30, 2021 20:35
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US Census: 331,000,000 people in 50 states People who matter in politics: 1 guy from one state Let me tell you about how our Holy Constitution was inspired in the Great Minds of Our Founders by God, as such a Perfect Compact could not have come about otherwise. It's like in Common Sense, "Why should a continent be ruled by an island?" Why shouldn't 331,000,000 people be subject to the whims of just one? ITS DEMOCACRY
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Apr 30, 2021 20:35
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On Terra Firma posted:Also 1 in 4 teens do not vape Is this a typo? https://twitter.com/CBSEveningNews/status/1387902515069476865 The problem with sexual assault, violence and murder in the military has been out of control...well probably forever but it's becoming more publicized now, and getting a handle on it absolutely requires this move. That's a hugely important piece of legislation.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:36
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VitalSigns posted:If it's the tobacco part of menthol cigarettes that's bad for you, why not allow the menthol and ban putting any tobacco in it That’s exactly what’s going to happen. Menthol will still be around in skincare products and cough drops and all the other ways it’s used outside of cigarettes. You will still be able to buy bulk menthol crystals from supplement suppliers if you want to. The ban is only on menthol-flavored tobacco products.
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Apr 30, 2021 20:37
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