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Should troll Fancy Pelosi be allowed to stay? This poll is closed. |
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NYT has a (bad) article about RGV latinos voting Republican and if that's a trend or not, there's a lot of stupid reasons in here - mostly it's horse-race bullshit without any substantial discussion of why Trump did better in the valley than other Republicans. The closest thing to an argument the article proposes is this:quote:Conversations with voters and activists in Hidalgo County suggested that there is not one answer but many: Women who staunchly oppose abortion voted for the first time; wives of Border Patrol agents felt convinced the Trump administration was firmly on their side; mothers picked up on the enthusiasm for Republicans from friends they knew through church or their children’s school. drat how many CBP wives are there? All this boils down, to me, to "We don't know why". Why would staunch pro-life women turn out for the first time this time, especially given that the Court is already sewn up? I guess I'd buy the cynicism argument, but I don't know why that would suddenly grab latino valley voters, unless the conclusion is that they like punitive, draconian immigration policies. But this quote hoo boy https://twitter.com/EricLevitz/status/1389187980187873281 I don't speak Spanish so I can't say first hand, but I've heard that disinfo and conspiracy poo poo is running rampant through Spanish social media with very little pushback from Democrats/liberals. zoux fucked around with this message at 15:28 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 15:26
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I don’t think anyone is saying that the ACA is worse than what it replaced, just that a market solution can never provide healthcare for everyone because capitalism won’t allow it, as seen by how capitalists prevented certain portions of the ACA from being implemented. Yeah, it’s the basic premise of for-profit insurance. Care must be denied, or there won’t be profit. If there wasn’t a need to profit, more care would be delivered. We just decided as a nation we’re cool with some people (poor people) not getting care as long as we reified the insurance system with the ACA. Quality of life for all Americans would be better under M4A, but as a nation we decided a few rich people profiting was more important than all of us being better off.
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May 3, 2021 15:28
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Kchama posted:UHC is never going to exist in a perfect form in a realistic future. People are going to die under its 'inadequate care'. But it will indeed save more people, much like ACA saved more people than what came before. But there are people it is going to deliberately leave for the dead, as no UHC is going to have infinite resources, as we have seen in other countries that have UHC. And in fact, people on the right perform sick-dunks like your own on UHC because of that very fact. Idk then dude, I just do not think criticizing a system because it victimizes people in order to preserve a superfluous parasite layer and criticizing a system because it cannot produce blanket human immortality are the same thing. If you find the argument unpersuasive, that's fine, but you admit you agree later in the same sentence so  I'm not super interested in getting into an argument over tone, thoughKalit posted:So... are you saying that the US shouldn't have passed ACA, even though a single payer system had no chance of passing? I honestly don't understand what realistic* option you want to have happened in 2010... "Better than the previous system" is literally the lowest possible bar you could set for something. Like if someone were to just punch you in the dick and balls every day for a few decades and then decide to only punch you in the balls, would you say "well hey can't complain about progress?" Deferring to "political realism" like you're doing here is just a way to obscure and defend governmental failure. It will never be "politically realistic" to act against entrenched interests because they're loving entrenched. That doesn't make it excusable. I took issue with the post I responded to because it framed healthcare policy explicitly in lives preserved vs lives lost terms(which is fine in a vacuum IMO, since that's the actual score being kept for this poo poo at base) that, in my opinion, presented the lives preserved as some kind of surplus rather than what it actually was, which was a relative reduction of a deficit that exists on a voluntary basis, and championed the efficacy of the policy by using literal survivor bias If you're asking me what could have been done within the confines of an extremely narrow framework constructed to prevent things like universal healthcare from coming to pass to force that framework to actually pass universal healthcare, the answer is nothing. The answer will always be nothing. That's not what our governmental system is for
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May 3, 2021 15:28
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zoux posted:
Oh poo poo really? I def can't support witchcraft and child trafficking. Vote red till im dead (This is sarcasm don't ban me please)
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May 3, 2021 15:34
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:If you're asking me what could have been done within the confines of an extremely narrow framework constructed to prevent things like universal healthcare from coming to pass to force that framework to actually pass universal healthcare, the answer is nothing. The answer will always be nothing. That's not what our governmental system is for then we're agreed, passing the ACA was a good thing compared to your alternative: nothing
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May 3, 2021 15:34
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zoux posted:NYT has a (bad) article about RGV latinos voting Republican and if that's a trend or not, there's a lot of stupid reasons in here - mostly it's horse-race bullshit without any substantial discussion of why Trump did better in the valley than other Republicans. The closest thing to an argument the article proposes is this: I think the media has a tendency to ignore that Trump was an incumbent president and, as unpopular as he was among most, that still gave him a lot of power to set the narrative. We saw a similar spike in minority religious support when W won re-election, driven by his religious rhetoric and policy: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2005/06/27/iv-how-latinos-voted-in-2004/ "Aside from his strong support from Hispanic Protestants, President Bush also gained some ground among nearly all segments of the Hispanic vote. His share of the vote increased among female Hispanic voters and across all age categories and income groups. He did better among big-city Hispanic voters. The only Hispanic vote segments of the Hispanic electorate where his share did not increase were among Catholics, political independents, conservatives, and rural voters." It's possible that Democrats can recapture some of those voters by focusing on economic policy and other areas of agreement with these groups, as they did after their decline in 2004. Of course, with Christian authoritarianism so tied to identity that might be harder to pull off now, especially with the rise of conspiracy bullshit, as you mention.
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May 3, 2021 15:41
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Velocity Raptor posted:I never benefited from the ACA due to having employer provided insurance, so what I know of it may be wrong. As someone with a wildly fluctuating income year to year who has used the ACA since its inception, you get subsidized based on your income. Per month, I have paid full price, $0, $20, and anything in between some years. Once they put me on Medicaid automatically.
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May 3, 2021 15:42
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evilweasel posted:then we're agreed, passing the ACA was a good thing compared to your alternative: nothing I mean it was as good as nothing for the people it allowed to die but they're dead so who cares
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May 3, 2021 15:43
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evilweasel posted:then we're agreed, passing the ACA was a good thing compared to your alternative: nothing "Good things aren't possible, so we have to settle for spending enormous amounts of effort and money on the bad thing that only looks good compared to a worse thing. Also the bad thing will be repeatedly used to justify why we don't need the good thing."
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May 3, 2021 15:46
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I mean it was as good as nothing for the people it allowed to die but they're dead so who cares and it was a significant improvement for millions to tens of millions of people, including many people whose lives were saved as a result hopefully, you care about that!
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May 3, 2021 15:51
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It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. What about loving now? 2021? Still no?
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May 3, 2021 15:52
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Bishyaler posted:"Good things aren't possible, so we have to settle for spending enormous amounts of effort and money on the bad thing that only looks good compared to a worse thing. Also the bad thing will be repeatedly used to justify why we don't need the good thing." You know, the craziest thing I just noticed about US politics since 2010...
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May 3, 2021 15:52
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Dante80 posted:It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. joe biden's successful campaign, that included a platform of further health care reform, delivered the first democratic 'trifecta' since 2010 and thus the first ability to pass new heath care reform since 2010
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May 3, 2021 15:56
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You'd be able to relax so much if you stopped trying to justify to others and mostly yourself that Obama wasn't a total failure. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2021 15:56
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zoux posted:
As bad as Twitter, YouTube and Facebook are at getting rid of disinformation, they are 1000x worse when it comes to non-english postings. I'm not actually sure they do any moderation at all unless it's something like posting execution videos (and then maybe only because such things get picked up by Euro or American media). My spouses parents are primarily Spanish speakers so almost all their media comes from Spanish language sources, and in 2020 it was almost a daily occurrence to have them call her up and ask about whether the latest bullshit they just heard about was true. Thankfully they seem to put a lot of weight on their daughters opinions and she was able to steal then away from the worst of it. Unfortunately there's a big part of her extended family that belive the bill gates microchip/mark of the beast lies about the vaccine and refuse to get vaccinated. Not her parents though thankfully we got through to them.
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May 3, 2021 15:56
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Dante80 posted:It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. It's the fourth largest sector of the US economy, it spends insane amounts of money on lobbying and political donations, it has deeply entrenched interests at all levels of government so it's not as easy as "wanting it really bad". Ghost Leviathan posted:You'd be able to relax so much if you stopped trying to justify to others and mostly yourself that Obama wasn't a total failure. It's not really important to me to be able to call Obama a failure or even a success. Not interested. zoux fucked around with this message at 16:01 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 15:59
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I just tell my parents we're at least 15 years from injectable nanochips and we have a major rare earth metal shortage right now so we can't really invest in developing that at the moment.
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May 3, 2021 15:59
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Dante80 posted:It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. Our political system effectively means that we have a once-in-a-generation chance to do maybe three things in the next two years, one of which is likely going to involve some form of healthcare overhaul. The problem is we're basically the crew of the Titanic trying to get the lifeboats in the water while we can, but the time to actually save ourselves has long past. Also about half the country insists that since one part of the boat is actually rising, the problem doesn't exist and a good portion of the other half are currently having it out over drama from a squash game earlier that night.
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May 3, 2021 15:59
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Bishyaler posted:"Good things aren't possible, so we have to settle for spending enormous amounts of effort and money on the bad thing that only looks good compared to a worse thing. Also the bad thing will be repeatedly used to justify why we don't need the good thing."  Ah yes, support for a single payer healthcare system has decreased since ACA was passed! Those pesky politicians are patting themselves on the back and keep saying "ACA is in effect, all problems related to access to healthcare is solved". Oh wait....maybe we should actually look at how many people in congress are actually signing on to support a medicare for all bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/house-bill/2034 with 19 cosponsors in 2007 vs https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1384 with 118 cosponsors in 2019 E: Dante80 posted:It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:06 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 16:02
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Grammarchist posted:I think the media has a tendency to ignore that Trump was an incumbent president and, as unpopular as he was among most, that still gave him a lot of power to set the narrative. We saw a similar spike in minority religious support when W won re-election, driven by his religious rhetoric and policy: True, I do think to some extent Trump had a rare "reverse incumbent effect" where people were sick of him, but the traditional incumbent effect was probably still there in some way. Combined with all the pandemic stuff, vote by mail, etc. it all makes for just a very unpredictable election that's difficult to analyze even now.
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May 3, 2021 16:02
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While I appreciate the discussion about US healthcare and the ACA, unless some news has broken this morning about it, please move this discussion over to the State of US Healthcare thread (though since it's been dormant since November, if someone wants to create a new one, go nuts). https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3935437
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May 3, 2021 16:05
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evilweasel posted:and it was a significant improvement for millions to tens of millions of people, including many people whose lives were saved as a result If it only saved half as many people as that, would you still consider it a success? A quarter? An eighth? Is it still a victory worth crowing about as long as the big pool of Americans classed as "acceptable losses" is reduced by even a single person? Just trying to figure out the win condition here
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May 3, 2021 16:08
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https://twitter.com/ZTPetrizzo/status/1389016002072137735 Just filing this away for one year hence when Lindell is forced to issue a public apology to Dominion Voting Systems in addition to an undisclosed financial settlement.
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May 3, 2021 16:09
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Grammarchist posted:The problem is we're basically the crew of the Titanic trying to get the lifeboats in the water while we can, but the time to actually save ourselves has long past. Also about half the country insists that since one part of the boat is actually rising, the problem doesn't exist and a good portion of the other half are child-eating Satanists (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2021 16:10
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zoux posted:Just filing this away for one year hence when Lindell is forced to issue a public apology to Dominion Voting Systems in addition to an undisclosed financial settlement. o'keefe ended up having to pay out but by then acorn, a 30 year old organization that hadn't actually done what they were accused of, where already dead. it's ALWAYS projection, this right here is the zerg-rush like "cancel culture" they're always talking about. helped greatly by the media printing the accusation in 40-point font on every front page and a postage stamp sized retraction on page 44 eight months later in other words: the complicit media is boosting fake news to create cancel culture against targets that aren't conservative enough. and, unlike when "the left" does it, it actually works.
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May 3, 2021 16:20
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/ZTPetrizzo/status/1389016002072137735 I have to say, Dominion must have quite the money pile / know the right people/network/network of biz lawyers if they gotten Fox and even gossip poo poo rags like Newsmax to drop the issue.
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May 3, 2021 16:21
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How is Dominion dying? Have they actually lost any business over this bullshit?
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May 3, 2021 16:22
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I will say if you're going to start an election machine company, don't name it something that sounds evil, you're doing half the work for the nutjobs right there.
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May 3, 2021 16:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You'd be able to relax so much if you stopped trying to justify to others and mostly yourself that Obama wasn't a total failure. Obama really was, and continues to be, a real garbage person. It'd be nicer if he would just disappear like Trump has, but he keeps sticking his nose into current politics to voice his horrible views (especially on war).
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May 3, 2021 16:23
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Tibalt posted:You're right, gently caress all those people that ACA helped, better they be sacrificed so that hypothetically a better thing could have happened in... Also gently caress all those people that could've been helped by universal healthcare, because the ACA half-measure won't cause Health Insurance industry donations to stop flowing.
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May 3, 2021 16:25
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edit* oops, just saw ralphevilweasel posted:the ACA literally had single payer health care for those people. it was the medicaid expansion But medicaid is not accepted by all providers. Here is just a quick thing I've pulled up to add substance to this and back up my own experiences. This is just the first thing I found you can find studies like this all over the place.  https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20190401.678690/full/ Essentially medicaid tends to pay out around 70% of what what medicare does. Now this isn't a huge deal with GPs, the most important thing people need to see. And let me start by saying getting 70% of people without insurance to see ANY GP through medicaid expansion would be a seachange event. But GPs will point out that if you shifted to this overnight, this would throw off their entire day because they'd be spending it with a person who hasn't had a lot of healthcare in their life and getting paid less to gently caress over their other patients blah blah blah. This is true to an extent and is a problem that would correct over time as people received more management; it's quicker to follow up than have a new patient, obviously. You don't want to stress out your GPs. They've got enough going on. But if you just look at that chart, the biggest discrepancy is psych. And within the population without healthcare, one of the most important things that should be treated is mental health. Mental health treatment is a problem throughout American society, everyone knows someone that has struggled to find a psychiatrist even with good insurance, so good luck finding one in rural WV if you have medicaid. The people you want to tell to go gently caress themselves are the orthos. quote:In this two-part survey study, we found that a simulated patient with commercial insurance was more likely to have their insurance accepted and to gain timely access to orthopaedic care than a patient with Medicaid. Academic practice setting and increased Medicaid reimbursement rates were associated with increased access to care for the patient with Medicaid. Inequality in access to orthopedic care based on health insurance status likely exists for the adult patient with Medicaid. Furthermore, Medicaid expansion has likely realized minimal gains in access to care for the adult orthopaedic patient. Further research is needed in delineating the patient-payer selection criteria used by orthopedic practices to aid policymakers in reforming the Medicaid program and comprehensibly addressing this access to care disparity. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11999-017-5263-3 There's tons of studies about this but at the end of the day there are several professions that will go out of their way not to accept medicaid. They'll either flat out refuse (tom price's old clinic was notorious for this) or jerk people around and schedule them three months out or things like that. And people do need orthopedic procedures, especially your laborers and what not who are blowing their rotator cuffs to pieces. Medicaid expansion was the best part of the ACA and is what provided the largest increase in healthcare, and politicians that refuse to expand it are ghouls. But it's not UHC as long as providers can just refuse to accept it. Expansion of medicaid needs to be accompanied with a combination of sticks and carrots at the national level, and we probably need a period of OVER compensation just to get the uninsured better managed in the short term. Like if I'm a family practice clinic and I've got a schedule full of 40 minute appointments at 70% reimbursement that's a real good way to get into financial trouble quick. This could easily be corrected with a billing adjustment though. gently caress orthos though they can all eat poo poo. Maybe get the medium sized fountain for the lobby. FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 16:32 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 16:26
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Bishyaler posted:Also gently caress all those people that could've been helped by universal healthcare, because the ACA half-measure won't cause Health Insurance industry donations to stop flowing. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3935437
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May 3, 2021 16:30
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spacetoaster posted:Obama really was, and continues to be, a real garbage person. I barely hear from the guy, and only via tweets I see reposted here on the forums. I haven't noticed op-eds or speeches or prime time interviews.
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May 3, 2021 16:31
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Agents are GO! posted:So if we hate France now, what are we going to rename our guillotines? Freedom Slicers? No, just start pronouncing it /GILL - uh - teen/. That would upset the French far, far more.
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May 3, 2021 16:35
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Kalit posted:*Just to be explicitly clear, a single payer system had no chance of realistically passing. You could not have "whipped" up the votes, have the few politicians in favor of it threaten other politicians, etc. They had to water the ACA down even more to satisfy Lieberman's dumb rear end. It's just stunning to me that 22 years later people are still claiming that Pres. Lieberman killed everything good in the ACA, after we watched Max Baucus ice the public option in committee & more dems than gop senators vote against drug-price controls when the ACA was being crafted. That these things were done at the behest of lobbyists, in secret meetings with lobbyists, neatly circles back into my original point about liberals coming up with ludicrous theories of failure in order to not acknowledge the regulatory capture at the heart of our system. Greenwald's theory of rotating villains will always be applicable when it comes to healthcare legislation, whether the Senate is debating in 2030 that 62 yr olds should be eligible for Medicare or that someone making $30k/year should have a $10k/year insurance deductible or a $15k/year insurance deductible.
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May 3, 2021 16:37
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The EPA is proposing a rule to phase down HFC emissions by 85% over the next 15 years. It's actually got some strong support in the business community, so hopefully it actually goes smoothly without a mess of lawsuits. https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/overnights/551432-epa-to-propose-rule-slashing-hydrofluorocarbons-use
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May 3, 2021 16:42
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/ZTPetrizzo/status/1389016002072137735 His appearance on Kimmel (I watched a video analyzing it) made me think that he's smarter than he let's on. He really downplayed the "helping Trump with the Coup" stuff (the stuff that could immediately get him in trouble) and basically said he's a nobody, he's just passionate about this "massive voter fraud". He was also lucid, played up his hokiness, and for the most part deflected quite a few of Kimmel's questions well. I think he's crazy as gently caress and somewhat believes his own hype, but unlike Rudy he knows when to shut up. He has done his job of spreading mass disinformation about the election; I have no doubt that he will settle out of court with Dominion soon, he's just going to milk the chud donations and buying his pillows first.
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May 3, 2021 16:43
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spacetoaster posted:It'd be nicer if he would just disappear like Trump has, but he keeps sticking his nose into current politics to voice his horrible views (especially on war). The only way I can imagine thinking that Trump disappeared is if you get news exclusively from Twitter; his Twitter ban was very effective, but he is still a major figure in the news and the frontrunner for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination. Then again, Obama's Twitter account has posted four tweets in the past week so I don't even know.
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May 3, 2021 16:43
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Dante80 posted:It is somewhat demoralizing as a European to hear Americans talking about their healthcare system like it's a thing that shouldn't change IMMEDIATELY. ACA was good for 2010 according to some because things were worse before and better things than ACA were not possible at the time. Back in 2009-2010 the focus-group-tested line used by liberals pols was that the ACA was "the first step to single-payer." Oddly enough, 12 years later, we don't hear that line anymore but we're back to discussing proposals made in 30 years ago like "public options" and "lowering the age of Medicare." Even the purported public option in the ACA, Medicaid, was privatized and gate-kept by private insurers. Over 90 percent of California's Medicaid insureds were bucketed into so-called managed-care plans run by insurers who benefitted quite lucratively as a result during the expansion's early years. That liberals can write off minority uninsurance and underinsurance as "welp, shoulda expanded Medicaid" is a further data point in their racism, and also ignores that had the expansion been under a federal program such as Medicare then states wouldn't have been able to reject it.
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May 3, 2021 16:53
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The only healthcare I've ever had since turning 26 has been Medicaid courtesy of the ACA. Thanks, Obama.
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May 3, 2021 16:56
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