Rimusutera posted:

The Bolsheviks and basically every other group were doing decades of preparatory work before 1917 broke things wide open, so it doesn't really make any sense to make takes like this.

mila kunis posted:

the bolsheviks didnt have a standing army and bank robbing was a more viable option in the 19th century than 21st century surveillance states

Stinky Wizzleteats posted:

any centralized revolutionary socialist group in the US risks getting black panthered too

quote:

anarchists: childish liberals, or liberal children?

The Oldest Man posted:

This is a dead certainty not a risk.

The Oldest Man posted:

What's your point, that the modern equivalent exists but they're just so darn sneaky no one can see them?

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

Fortaleza posted:

[waves arms] why don't they make the whole revolution out of the black box??

The Oldest Man posted:

What's your point, that the modern equivalent exists but they're just so darn sneaky no one can see them?

mila kunis posted:

no, just pointing out we live in different periods of time where conditions differ greatly.

there are some parallels though - the left in russia was pretty neutered after the assasination of the tsar liberator, the russian police state infiltrated and wrecked most leftist groups. socialist movements in the usa didn't just wither away, they were destroyed with deliberation, repression and incredible amounts of violence. in such conditions any philosophy dependent on organizing mass movements is going to falter, and movements based around individualism and decentralization will be more prominent, but ultimately get nothing done.

GoLambo posted:

Let me throw this out there. I'm minimum wage working poor, not everyone posting here failed upwords into a cushy tech job. So like I don't just want communism, I need communism or this poo poo will likely kill me real early anyway. Anarchist solutions are an Actual Joke because there is barely even an attempt to mass mobilize labor to accomplish political goals, literally the only political action worth doing at all.

I have a real distaste for american "anarchists" on the organizing front because you have to be really loving privileged in terms of skills, personality, or access to resources to actually meaningfully utilize the kind of spaces anarchists actually foster. living off a meager charity just rots your brain, so just loving whatever when it comes to the marginal "mutual aid" floating around out there. there is little real class consciousness developed from it, it's not like you can actually put any trust into the institutional character of any particular anarchist project (because none of them have any actual loving power or resources anyway), just a kind of slow marginalized rot from either direction. like it turns out "existing outside capitalism" isn't actually a loving boon but a cruse unless you are uniquely adapted to take advantage of it anyway. Wage labor is still significantly safer and more self actualizing then failing to be a culture fit for a bunch of boisterous insular politics nerds. If you are dependent on what passes for mutual aid you are as hosed as anyone else in a position to rely on charity, being fed by an aid org does not loving empower you because you are just waiting to die slower. big fuckin whoop. If you don't end up with the bosses keys it doesn't matter much in the end.

Seizing actual political power is the only goddamned thing I care about, and it's drat near the one thing on the ground american anarchists oppose because they are brainwashed by anti-communist propaganda. I'm utterly dependent on commodity access, and that means I have to sell my labor. The social controls enacted by the state that anarchists are always whining about are either culture war bullshit that every person has to skirt around (and likely always will) or they fall entirely under the preview of labor relations and access to resources. The endless whining about whatever the gently caress a "state" is in particular has very little actual impact compared to oh I dunno, all those previous material and social conditions already so clearly established. I care about my relation to these things insofar as they related to political action in my class interest. Anarchism may have plenty of intellectual or self actualizing value to a lot of people but the way it's practiced in the US does not meaningfully contribute to seizing power from capital and then, get this, wielding that power on behalf of the working class. It's just taking a bunch of liberalized subjects and letting them pat each other on the back about how moral they are. I want my loving check, I want my apartment, I want my healthcare. M-L's have a pretty solid track record of providing those things and anarchists are batting a big loving zero on that front. There is a urgency of action required to confront capital that dwarfs the concerns of revolutionary sate overreach or whatever because the alternative is a loving climate apocalypse anyway, the status quo is untenable. The boot is already stomping on my face at an accelerating pace, you cannot possibly get me to give a poo poo about warnings that it might turn around and happen again.

GoLambo posted:

no its clear the existing marxist orgs in the US are long filled with burnouts and posting warriors, i certainly wouldn't rely on them for anything. i was referring to all the communist states that actually had to and successfully managed power stations and other kinds of mass political projects. Many of which actually still exist and are doing Pretty Good all things considered.

my concern is that the character of the american left, and the anarchists' in particular because it's clear they represent the majority of american left not completely subsumed to liberal politics, is that it's all so deeply warped up in concerns about autonomy over anything else. trying to exist "outside" capital is immiseration for tens of millions of us, it's just a dead end politically, especially as things get worse. spending so much time concerned with not taking the reigns of the state is just posturing and it's also not really a politics with class character. it's not really "defeatist" either because frankly i imagine organized anarchists will do pretty okay much like they currently are. but the rest of us are hosed without a serious degree of centralization emerging to steer any kind of meaningful mass action.

Jellidelic posted:

id like to exist outside of capitalism

GoLambo posted:

Let me throw this out there. I'm minimum wage working poor, not everyone posting here failed upwords into a cushy tech job. So like I don't just want communism, I need communism or this poo poo will likely kill me real early anyway. Anarchist solutions are an Actual Joke because there is barely even an attempt to mass mobilize labor to accomplish political goals, literally the only political action worth doing at all.

I have a real distaste for american "anarchists" on the organizing front because you have to be really loving privileged in terms of skills, personality, or access to resources to actually meaningfully utilize the kind of spaces anarchists actually foster. living off a meager charity just rots your brain, so just loving whatever when it comes to the marginal "mutual aid" floating around out there. there is little real class consciousness developed from it, it's not like you can actually put any trust into the institutional character of any particular anarchist project (because none of them have any actual loving power or resources anyway), just a kind of slow marginalized rot from either direction. like it turns out "existing outside capitalism" isn't actually a loving boon but a cruse unless you are uniquely adapted to take advantage of it anyway. Wage labor is still significantly safer and more self actualizing then failing to be a culture fit for a bunch of boisterous insular politics nerds. If you are dependent on what passes for mutual aid you are as hosed as anyone else in a position to rely on charity, being fed by an aid org does not loving empower you because you are just waiting to die slower. big fuckin whoop. If you don't end up with the bosses keys it doesn't matter much in the end.

Seizing actual political power is the only goddamned thing I care about, and it's drat near the one thing on the ground american anarchists oppose because they are brainwashed by anti-communist propaganda. I'm utterly dependent on commodity access, and that means I have to sell my labor. The social controls enacted by the state that anarchists are always whining about are either culture war bullshit that every person has to skirt around (and likely always will) or they fall entirely under the preview of labor relations and access to resources. The endless whining about whatever the gently caress a "state" is in particular has very little actual impact compared to oh I dunno, all those previous material and social conditions already so clearly established. I care about my relation to these things insofar as they related to political action in my class interest. Anarchism may have plenty of intellectual or self actualizing value to a lot of people but the way it's practiced in the US does not meaningfully contribute to seizing power from capital and then, get this, wielding that power on behalf of the working class. It's just taking a bunch of liberalized subjects and letting them pat each other on the back about how moral they are. I want my loving check, I want my apartment, I want my healthcare. M-L's have a pretty solid track record of providing those things and anarchists are batting a big loving zero on that front. There is a urgency of action required to confront capital that dwarfs the concerns of revolutionary sate overreach or whatever because the alternative is a loving climate apocalypse anyway, the status quo is untenable. The boot is already stomping on my face at an accelerating pace, you cannot possibly get me to give a poo poo about warnings that it might turn around and happen again.

GoLambo posted:

no its clear the existing marxist orgs in the US are long filled with burnouts and posting warriors, i certainly wouldn't rely on them for anything. i was referring to all the communist states that actually had to and successfully managed power stations and other kinds of mass political projects. Many of which actually still exist and are doing Pretty Good all things considered.

my concern is that the character of the american left, and the anarchists' in particular because it's clear they represent the majority of american left not completely subsumed to liberal politics, is that it's all so deeply warped up in concerns about autonomy over anything else. trying to exist "outside" capital is immiseration for tens of millions of us, it's just a dead end politically, especially as things get worse. spending so much time concerned with not taking the reigns of the state is just posturing and it's also not really a politics with class character. it's not really "defeatist" either because frankly i imagine organized anarchists will do pretty okay much like they currently are. but the rest of us are hosed without a serious degree of centralization emerging to steer any kind of meaningful mass action.

The Oldest Man posted:

So which group in the US is paying a standing internal army and robbing banks and poo poo to fund the party budget right now?

Rimusutera posted:

the RSDLP did a lot more than rob banks. my point wasn't that there's necessarily the vanguard all good and ready to go right now either, but that the conditions do exist right now for people to do the necessary correct work in the present, where as you were phrasing things like we need to wait for the US to literally fall apart to do Revolutionary Activity TM.

indigi posted:

I’m more and more coming around to this way of thinking. reading about the anarchists in Catalonia only sending one truck full of soldiers to the front at a time and only when people finally felt like loading into the truck was super depressing. you can’t beat a fascist state like that

unfortunately, American MLs are not any better than American anarchists in terms of organizing and building a movement, and are arguably worse at it since that’s their whole agenda, so it’s like, gently caress

Octal posted:

Can I get a reference on the Catalonia sending one truck full of soldiers? I gotta read this myself. Also I read earlier about that alliance with Franco? Wait did that happen too?

exmarx posted:

would the top of the anarchist hierarchy passing an "anarcho law" to stop people leaving their homes for non-essential purposes be unjust in your opinion

Jellidelic posted:

this is how ive been approaching covid... anarchistly


failure to keep people safe when you know the risks and safety protocols qualifies as violence.

walking around and interacting with a large group, where everybody hasnt expressly consented to that risk, is a violent behavior.

knowingly having covid and interacting with people carelessly even more violent.

Jellidelic posted:

Victory Position posted:

you know this is the NAP, right

the only thing missing is a contract

thanks for the links, by the way. pretty good reading

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

spoiler alert and this would probably be better for the movie thread, but there's a great chinese movie from the 60s called the "red detachment of women" about all-female fighting unit on hainan island in the 30s. and the protagonist is an escaped slave girl who joins the communists, but she carries with her an individualistic desire for revenge against the landlord who abused her.

there's even a great scene where she's on a reconnaissance mission and sees the motherfucker, and is so filled with rage that she pulls out a pistol and tries to blast him. and this screws up their scouting mission, and she is disciplined for doing that. thing is, her being pissed off is completely understandable, and there's even a kill bill "wooweewoooo" sound effect when she sees the guy. anyways, part of the movie is about how becoming a communist for them is about overcoming that individualistic, anarchistic mindset and focusing on the mission in a disciplined way, which is also how you change the society so there are no more feudal lords with slaves, and freeing people from that slave morality and adopting a new morality in which the slaves become the masters, is my interpretation.

skipping ahead to scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoPM9d18e9o&t=2371s

Jellidelic posted:

can't be caught slippin when its time to do gangster poo poo

christmas boots posted:

Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue is my favorite communist anthem

ted hitler hunter posted:

A couple of months have passed.

Has anyone changed their mind vis a vis the question: Anarchists: Childish Liberals, or Liberal Children?

Yadoppsi posted:

What I want to know is why whenever you encounter a leftist Biden-booster (Robert Evans, Vaush, etc) they self identify their tendency as anarchist.