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Maneck posted:Dancing Yak poo poo How can anyone be this blindingly incompetent? I can imagine wanting to sell super niche models as an income stream (it's poo poo money for the effort unless you have an entire range and even then.) but making castable master models is an art and it is the height of idiocy to decide to dive headlong into doing it without experience. The fact that he's buying new printers says everything. You can easily outsource everything! It's just staggeringly, incomprehensibly stupid. Was he planning to teach himself spincasting as well? Every time I read these "success stories" I get irrationally annoyed because it isn't difficult! I was a stupid Uni student who didn't know better and I still managed to get models produced and sold online. 
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May 3, 2021 20:04
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Z the IVth posted:Every time I read these "success stories" I get irrationally annoyed because it isn't difficult! I was a stupid Uni student who didn't know better and I still managed to get models produced and sold online. That's really cool. Don't sell yourself short. That you were able to do it doesn't mean it's not difficult. Taking a product from inception to market is impressive.
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May 3, 2021 22:24
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Meanwhile, you can get excellent prints of newly made 10mm chaos dwarfs here: https://www.excellentminiatures.com...os-dwarves/?p=1 so someone already came and ate his lunch while he was farting around
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May 4, 2021 00:08
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Meanwhile, you can get excellent prints of newly made 10mm chaos dwarfs here: https://www.excellentminiatures.com...os-dwarves/?p=1 Just curious: why are there orcs and goblins in the chaos dwarf army?
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May 4, 2021 00:12
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Imagined posted:Just curious: why are there orcs and goblins in the chaos dwarf army? Chaos Dwarves were, supposedly, behind the creation of Black Orcs. Hobgoblins just hung out with Chaos Dwarves, either as slaves or as slavers to other slaves that the Chaos Dwarves owned.
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May 4, 2021 00:14
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Imagined posted:Just curious: why are there orcs and goblins in the chaos dwarf army? They like the aesthetic.
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May 4, 2021 00:17
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Meanwhile, you can get excellent prints of newly made 10mm chaos dwarfs here: https://www.excellentminiatures.com...os-dwarves/?p=1 Yeah that company has some amazing models. I was planning on grabbing an army from them and pay the additional in shipping as I'm in the US Chaos Dwarves made black Orcs ages ago and enslaves other races. Or something like that. I like the stupid hats lol
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May 4, 2021 00:50
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Imagined posted:Just curious: why are there orcs and goblins in the chaos dwarf army? Lorewise, the Chaos Dwarves were slavers and they enslaved many orcoids. Hobgoblins were part of the original orcoid races enslaved by the Chaos Dwarves. They cooperated with Chaos Dwarves/betrayed the other orcoids, in exchange for better treatment. Hobgoblins, as a result they were mistrusted by other orcoids and therefore were basically only part of Chaos Dwarf forces, whereas other orcs could be taken by Chaos Dwarves but were also very much their own thing. Black Orcs were created by the Chaos Dwarves through magical experiments to be a stronger, more survivable class of slaves. They rebelled and became leaders of the orcoid races and were part of their armies. Take the lore on point with a grain of salt because the Chaos Dwarf lore was never really fleshed out. They got one codex release, in 1993, which was mostly a copy/paste job from White Dwarf articles, and then basically zero support from GW, save for a FW relaunch in 2010 which apparently flopped hard.
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May 4, 2021 03:07
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Imagined posted:Just curious: why are there orcs and goblins in the chaos dwarf army? People covered the lore stuff pretty well, but the answer the question why they were designed that way: They're fantasy Assyrians. They have exaggerated outfits and monsters based on Assyrian/Akkadian statuary, and they're turning into statues because the main way the Assyrian army lingers in public memory is as statues. They're brutally cruel slavers on the decline because that's how the Assyrians were remembered, especially in their later period. And those slaves are Mongol-themed hobgoblins and eugenically enhanced black orcs because when Chaos Dwarfs were created, GW was leaning very heavily into just ripping off Tolkien, so the hobgoblins are literally "least lovely Mongol types" and black orcs are literally bred for service and war like the uruk-hai. So why this mix of units though? Warhammer Fantasy Battles 3e didn't have strictly siloed armies with their own armybook/codex the way later editions (and every edition of 40K but the first) did. Instead, you had a bunch of mostly-incomplete armies that weren't really designed with a personality or mechanical gimmick in mind. Many of these armies were overlarge kitchen sinks (Chaos especially), and some of them were incomplete ally contingents (Halflings, Zoats, Pygmies). Chaos Dwarfs didn't exist as a separate army list in 3e, though. Chaos Dwarfs in 4e - the original Chaos Dwarf army list - swept up a bunch of these leftovers into one army. Chaos Dwarfs went from weird punk mutant dwarfs to an Assyrian-themed slaver empire. While they got a bunch of new Assyrian-themed monsters, a number of their units existed because there was an orphaned miniature. Bull Centaurs exist because there was a Chaos Dwarf Juggernaut centaur with a bovine body. The Earthshaker Mortar was adapting the more prosaic Chaos Dwarf mortar. Chaos Dwarfs are ruled by sorcerers because there were some orphaned Chaos Dwarf (and Dwarf) wizard models. Hobgoblins are part of this because they were a 3e ally contingent that never got swept up into any of the other 4e army lists, and because they were the only other central Asian-themed models laying around. It was decided that the Darklands were fantasy Assyria, so the WHFB's uruk-hai ripoff, the black orcs, who were already from the Darklands in 3e, got Chaos Dwarf eugenics as their origin story. Most of the other armies that had ally contingents rolled into their main list phased out those units over time, to focus on stronger-themed units. (Look at how many 4e lists had ogres or giants, for example.) Chaos Dwarfs didn't really get a revamp or a line update between 1994 and 2010, though, so the orc units were a larger proportion of their list than most armies, so that really solidified as a part of the faction in people's minds. Nobody thinks of Empire as "the army with giants" because there are so many stronger-Empire-themed units added later, but Chaos Dwarfs never got that treatment.
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May 4, 2021 04:02
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Cease to Hope posted:People covered the lore stuff pretty well, but the answer the question why they were designed that way: You seem to know a lot of history re: WFB. I've read that by the time AoS dropped there was some seriously bad poo poo going on with the WFB, with some armies basically getting nothing new edition to edition and some armies not getting a model for 10+ years. How true is this? I think it was Brettonians I'd heard got the shaft.
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May 4, 2021 10:15
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:You seem to know a lot of history re: WFB. Some armies were completely shafted for a long time. Bretonnia is one of them, but Wood Elves was very poorly supported as well. Basically AoS killed Warhammer, but it was clear for many years before that that WHFB was much lower prioritized by GW than 40K, with rumours that the sales of WHFB altogether was less than even some of the smaller 40K factions. Also Chaos Dwarf was surely heavily inspired by Assyria. But also by Babylonian culture and it was the mirror of Isengard's "dirty industrialism" theme from LotR, with large factories manned by slaves spewing out deadly fumes across an arid wasteland. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 10:21 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 10:18
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I now have painted both Dreadfane warbands. From this  To this  Sadly my glow in the dark spray paint was both clear and came out in grit form albeit ultra minor. My initial wash paint on the banshees looked kinda bad and was coming off a bit so I redid both colors mostly. Overall I think both warbands came out nicely given how I've not really painted much in a couple years or so.  But I generally do paint sins of white primer and little thinning plus paint on the lip with non dropper paints so I am not gonna win any awards but clean and simple is more than enough. (I had to put a drop or 2 of water on the pallette for some of Vallejo model series green. Its some kind of Panzer Series and was a tad too thick. Probably should have done the same for the light blue.)  Outside of cards in sleeves n boxes i am well organized and ready to go. Not shown is the extra 4 pack of magic dice. Dunno if 8 bucks was worth it but eh. I have a fully ready to go set of Underworlds so yay me.
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May 4, 2021 10:36
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lilljonas posted:Some armies were completely shafted for a long time. Bretonnia is one of them, but Wood Elves was very poorly supported as well. Basically AoS killed Warhammer, but it was clear for many years before that that WHFB was much lower prioritized by GW than 40K, with rumours that the sales of WHFB altogether was less than even some of the smaller 40K factions. shame that they released Vermintide II and Total War II after they killed AoS and started a huge interest in WFB again.
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May 4, 2021 11:10
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:shame that they released Vermintide II and Total War II after they killed AoS and started a huge interest in WFB again. Yeah, but that was GW in a nutshell at the time - 40K was the breadwinner, so screw everything else. I think WFB made just enough money that Kirby allowed it to continue to exist, but it had to do so with minimal support at best. IMO, 8th helped kill the game, what with the army sizes required to play - you weren't going to pull in a new player if they had to drop all that cash and paint 150+ models. Licensing is a golden opportunity though - they could take a property that is essentially dead and worthless to them, have someone else take on all the risk, and, at worst, fail. At best, you get a TW or DoW that does great, and GW just has to sit back and rake in the licensing fees. Honestly, I don't know why GW didn't start licensing everything a long time ago - other than brand dilution, which, frankly, probably wouldn't really hurt them at all, considering they have a built in market, they would really have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
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May 4, 2021 12:52
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berzerkmonkey posted:Honestly, I don't know why GW didn't start licensing everything a long time ago - other than brand dilution, which, frankly, probably wouldn't really hurt them at all, considering they have a built in market, they would really have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The thinking at the time was that if people could play the game on computers, they would not play it with miniatures. TheDiceMustRoll posted:You seem to know a lot of history re: WFB. Other people covered this, but yeah. Over WHFB's entire life it was normal for armies to just go an edition or two without ever seeing a new army book or line refresh. In general, if armies got a refresh in multipart poseable plastic (similar to the 4e/5e refreshes of all 40K lines), they probably did not get another major refresh ever except for the armies that were a big focus of the Storm of Chaos stuff that wrapped up WHFB8e. Bretonnians were one of the first armies to get one, at the start of 6e (IIRC?), and never got seriously refreshed again. Even their armybook was a carryover from a previous edition. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 13:01 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 12:57
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I don't think they were one of the first. They were 2003 and well-after the "core" armies (High Elves, Dark Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarves, Empire, various Chaos, Vampires, and maybe some others that I can't find specific dates for) and after the Albion campaign even. So they had to use Ravening Hordes for a large chunk of the lifespan of 6e, and then once the book was released that's all they had through 7e and 8e.
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May 4, 2021 13:26
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Cease to Hope posted:The thinking at the time was that if people could play the game on computers, they would not play it with miniatures. Afaik a significant part of the Bretonnian range was released together with 5th ed, with the box being brets vs lizardmen, and was not updated again. Ever. E: that said, the brets line also had some of the more evergreen sculpts that didn't age badly. There were some absolute crap sculpts that survived from 4th ed and all the way to the end. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 13:36 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 13:32
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The last two editions also had those idiotic changes to rank bonus rules that made it even less practical to build out some armies. Stuff like 60 model blocks of 3 point models for skaven. I can only assume it was an edict from corporate to help push models.
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May 4, 2021 13:36
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lilljonas posted:Afaik a significant part of the Bretonnian range was released together with 5th ed, with the box being brets vs lizardmen, and was not updated again. Ever. I wasn't paying super close attention to the Bretonnians by the time their 6e stuff was released, but I think a large portion of the line was completely revamped. All the knights got new sculpts and this is when heraldry and shields on barding became part of the sculpts. Archers and men-at-arms were replaced with multipart kits as well, despite the 5e metal ones being pretty much perfect. Special characters were either dropped or got new models, except for the Green Knight which was really the only one that was evergreen. I think the sorcerous models stuck around as they turned up in Finecast eventually. They also got entirely new things like the pegasus knights and the trebuchet at that time too. I have no idea what happened with squires though. It wouldn't surprise me if those stuck around for 4 editions. The later editions of WHFB also had the idiotic "random charge distances" which as soon as I see I nope out of a game.
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May 4, 2021 13:41
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Crackbone posted:The last two editions also had those idiotic changes to rank bonus rules that made it even less practical to build out some armies. Stuff like 60 model blocks of 3 point models for skaven. I can only assume it was an edict from corporate to help push models. I think they struggled with what to do with the game overall in the end. Instead of making it a better, righter, rank-and-file game they changed the rules to favour silly things like 50+ units of greatswords, which made it impossible to lure in new players. But simultaneously they made magic super random and deadly, which pushed away the serious competative crowd. It was a mess, and finally they didn't know what to do with that mess other than kill it off and make a completely new, more 40K style, game. Atlas Hugged posted:I wasn't paying super close attention to the Bretonnians by the time their 6e stuff was released, but I think a large portion of the line was completely revamped. All the knights got new sculpts and this is when heraldry and shields on barding became part of the sculpts. Archers and men-at-arms were replaced with multipart kits as well, despite the 5e metal ones being pretty much perfect. Special characters were either dropped or got new models, except for the Green Knight which was really the only one that was evergreen. I think the sorcerous models stuck around as they turned up in Finecast eventually. They also got entirely new things like the pegasus knights and the trebuchet at that time too. I have no idea what happened with squires though. It wouldn't surprise me if those stuck around for 4 editions. Oh yeah, I rememberd the 6e wrong. But yeah, those 5th ed metal sculpts were beautiful. Now you mention it, random charge distance together with the win-or-lose magic of 8th pretty much killed it as a competative game, which left it with no clear player base. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 13:47 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 13:44
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I absolutely stopped buying models in 8th because every army was just an astronomical undertaking. Once I had my Bretonnians and Tomb Kings at a decent place, I was done until 9th hopefully reduced unit sizes. On the plus side, some of those bretonnians are now worth like £100 a model so I'm gonna cash the hell in before Old World releases
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May 4, 2021 13:50
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Kings of War definitely gets rank-and-flank right by having fixed unit sizes with less of an emphasis on raw model numbers. They're creeping in that direction, but they're also in a different place than they were when KoW 2e launched and they really needed to get every player interested as they could. Right now they encourage you to take more models than were absolutely required in 2e but you still don't have to take the maximum number. You also can still use models from other manufacturers in official tournaments, but there are apparently incentives to field armies of their stuff (winners being flown to larger tournaments for instance).
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May 4, 2021 13:53
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Atlas Hugged posted:I don't think they were one of the first. They were 2003 and well-after the "core" armies (High Elves, Dark Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarves, Empire, various Chaos, Vampires, and maybe some others that I can't find specific dates for) and after the Albion campaign even. So they had to use Ravening Hordes for a large chunk of the lifespan of 6e, and then once the book was released that's all they had through 7e and 8e. I'm talking about the multipose plastics they got in 1996. I vaguely recall the later 2003 set (the last big update for Brets I think?) was metal parts for those plastics, but I could be misremembering.
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May 4, 2021 13:53
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Cease to Hope posted:I'm talking about the multipose plastics they got in 1996. I vaguely recall the later 2003 set (the last big update for Brets I think?) was metal parts for those plastics, but I could be misremembering. We might be talking about two different things. The 1996 Bretonnians were basically a step up from the monopose plastic ranges of 4e. The knight was a body with a lance and shield that had to be glued, and I guess the lance could be pointed up at different angles. The horses were in four pieces (head, left, right, tail) and were similar to the other horses of the era. The archers were single pieces with two poses available just like the skinks in the box. These and the metals released around the army book later that year were the only Bretonnian releases of note until the 2003 revamp, which was when they got real multipose kits. It was also the last time they saw new models at all. The first WHFB multipose plastics as I would consider them were the Empire footmen that could be made with a variety of weapons. That kit was loving awesome, but wouldn't show up until the end of 5th edition.
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May 4, 2021 14:00
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Part of that being there just being a glut of factions with ever increasing rosters. The original concept was that most of the army would be made up of evergreen swordsmen/pikeman/archers with a small bit of specialist units you could rotate in and out depending on what army you were facing. Then armies started bloating since the specialist units were the surest way to get people to buy new models every book cycle and they eventually had to figure a structure to let people take larger and larger amounts of specialists.
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May 4, 2021 14:01
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Atlas Hugged posted:The first WHFB multipose plastics as I would consider them were the Empire footmen that could be made with a variety of weapons. That kit was loving awesome, but wouldn't show up until the end of 5th edition. Yeah, the puffy German ones. I'm pretty sure I'm mixing up those two Bret releases, you're right.
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May 4, 2021 14:15
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First, I love that my cluelessness about Chaos Dwarf lore led to post-mortem of WHFB, which is something I've been dying to read about. Personally I can see why they killed it and replaced it with a skirmish game, but I hate that they redid so many of the factions too. To me, Empire > Stormcast, Elves > Aelves, etc
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May 4, 2021 14:38
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A friend of mine believes they’re going to make warhammer fantasy battles a 10-15mm game so you can fully realize those massive armies. I think it’s definitely possible
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May 4, 2021 14:40
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lilljonas posted:I think they struggled with what to do with the game overall in the end. Instead of making it a better, righter, rank-and-file game they changed the rules to favour silly things like 50+ units of greatswords, which made it impossible to lure in new players. But simultaneously they made magic super random and deadly, which pushed away the serious competative crowd. It was a mess, and finally they didn't know what to do with that mess other than kill it off and make a completely new, more 40K style, game. Oh god yeah, I forgot about the magic. GW's rules systems were never *great*, but they really poo poo the bed on what people wanted out of WFB. After seeing those kickass third party models I almost hope GW isn't getting back into a 10mm Warmaster type game.
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May 4, 2021 14:44
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Verisimilidude posted:A friend of mine believes they’re going to make warhammer fantasy battles a 10-15mm game so you can fully realize those massive armies. I think it’s definitely possible This is an incredibly pervasive rumor, but there's absolutely no basis for it. Opening Warmaster for Made to Order would let me finish my Dark Elves though.
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May 4, 2021 14:50
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Crackbone posted:The last two editions also had those idiotic changes to rank bonus rules that made it even less practical to build out some armies. Stuff like 60 model blocks of 3 point models for skaven. I can only assume it was an edict from corporate to help push models. They were also doing a whole lot of giant monsters near the end - monsters that couldn't break any regiment over four models
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May 4, 2021 14:56
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My first car was a stick
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Crackbone posted:The last two editions also had those idiotic changes to rank bonus rules that made it even less practical to build out some armies. Stuff like 60 model blocks of 3 point models for skaven. I can only assume it was an edict from corporate to help push models. Honestly, I think it was the other way around. WHFB had real problems with being dominated by herohammer and monster mash before 7e and 8e. Ranked blocks of dudes was a lot more interesting as a strategy game, but, like everyone's pointed out, completely impractical to buy and build for many armies.
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May 4, 2021 14:59
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I still have my 4th edition Brett's and Lizards somewhere in a box at my parents house. And the codex for the Bretts. I also got a bunch of dwarfs and woodies. Would be fun if I could ever use them for something.
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May 4, 2021 15:06
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8th was also really bad and not fun unless you had a (tremendously expensive) army specifically built for it. The guys with full 50+ and 100+ strong units, etc went all-in - and weren't fun to play against with a traditional army. This is, I think, why you see 8th with some strong defenders online. Pre-covid, I actually had a 7e WHFB group that two guys were pulling towards 8th. (Of course it was the twi guys with a million models.) It felt like a microcosm of what put WHFB on the ropes before End Times killed it; The base was split between people gleefully pouring cash into their armies and others who didn't see the appeal.
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May 4, 2021 15:30
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Imagined posted:Personally I can see why they killed it and replaced it with a skirmish game, but I hate that they redid so many of the factions too. To me, Empire > Stormcast, Elves > Aelves, etc Yeah, its clear that things needed a reboot, and things seem to have gone pretty well for AoS, but it does feel like the baby got thrown out with the bathwater a little bit.
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May 4, 2021 15:56
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Verisimilidude posted:A friend of mine believes they’re going to make warhammer fantasy battles a 10-15mm game so you can fully realize those massive armies. I think it’s definitely possible Warmaster was 10mm. I didn't realize that the, as they became to be known, Vampire Counts and Tomb kings came into being BECAUSE of warmaster effectively. They created the 2 separate lines which inspired the WHFB line 6th edition Fantasy was great Sadly 7th and 8th did start to be the beginning of the end for the game. Massive units, herohammer and Magic is all that mattered. Demons and Ogres really ended up breaking the Magic system If you weren't dropping 100 points into dispel scrolls, WTF were you even doing
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May 4, 2021 16:22
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MRLOLAST posted:I still have my 4th edition Brett's and Lizards somewhere in a box at my parents house. And the codex for the Bretts. I also got a bunch of dwarfs and woodies. Would be fun if I could ever use them for something. This was 5th edition. Some of the books carried over from 4th, like the original Undead book and the High Elf book prior to the 1997 revamp (probably my favorite version of the High Elves). The 4th edition box had goblins and elves in it and the infamous card monsters and war machines. Tiny Chalupa posted:Warmaster was 10mm. I didn't realize that the, as they became to be known, Vampire Counts and Tomb kings came into being BECAUSE of warmaster effectively. They created the 2 separate lines which inspired the WHFB line 6e really was a great edition and the design philosophy was all about moving the game away from the 4/5e "herohammer" approach. I just don't think this model worked well for what GW as a business thought they needed to do. It runs into the same issue gameplay wise as 40k does where it just doesn't make sense for a 6x4 table with 28-32mm models. But that's where 7e and then really 8e took it and then it died.
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May 4, 2021 16:36
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All this oldhammer talk got me nostalgic, checked the local buy/sell group, and called dibs on a medium sized 4th to 6th ed unpainted orcs and goblin army for 200 bucks. It has Morglum Necksnapper! I’m going to build the army my childhood self was too undisciplined to do, and join my club’s games where they mix 6th and 7th ed rules.
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May 4, 2021 16:43
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I've read that by the time AoS dropped there was some seriously bad poo poo going on with the WFB, with some armies basically getting nothing new edition to edition and some armies not getting a model for 10+ years. How true is this? I think it was Brettonians I'd heard got the shaft. The aforementioned Chaos Dwarves went 17 years without a refresh. WFB did not get the support it needed to be a proper game. But this is also very true: Atlas Hugged posted:This was 5th edition. Some of the books carried over from 4th, like the original Undead book and the High Elf book prior to the 1997 revamp (probably my favorite version of the High Elves). The 4th edition box had goblins and elves in it and the infamous card monsters and war machines. I started in 5th. I loved the models but it was, objectively, a bad game. We knew it too. Hundreds of dollars worth of models on the table, but the winner was likely determined by whoever chose the right magic weapons for their heroes, or whether a spell went off. The units were only there as fodder. 6th was objectively a better game - but it was perhaps tuned to the point of being a little boring. My gaming group didn't really give it a fair shake before dropping it in favour of 40k/Necromunda/Mordheim/Gorkamorka. The last three of which at least belong being discussed in the thread, and were better than any version of WFB. People complain about WFB getting dropped, and say it just wasn't supported enough, and I just don't get it. It was never as good as a whole bunch of the specialist games that got way less support from GW. They generated much lower sales, I would assume - but if someone was asking to get into the hobby they were so obviously the way to go. Maneck fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 18:25
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gorkamorka was a genuinely bad game with some very nice models
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