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Yes. The pulled a teenage Tony out of the past before Kang got to him. This all got retconned by Avengers Forever and an Annual some years later.
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May 2, 2021 18:35
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The Scarlet Witch has never had a better costume than her "The Crossing"-era look. That is the only worthwhile part of it. I think that's the crossover where all the nerds on the Internet spent the better part of a year trying to come up with a reading list for it and eventually all gave up. There is no way to fan-wank it into sensibility.
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May 3, 2021 04:03
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Sure there is, you just have to read half a book, read two others, read 3 more pages in the original book, read an issue of War Machine, then finish the original book. See? Simple. I believe the omnibus splits one or two issues to make it flow better.
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May 3, 2021 04:07
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Edge & Christian posted:There was a lot of Ultimate Marvel "realism" that "works well" if you want to really flatten characters out so that Captain America is The Old Fashioned Shithead, Hank Pym is the Shithead Who Lives to Beat Women, Reed is Incel Nerd Shithead LOL, for some definitions of "working well" I guess that works well and even that is an oversimplification of the oversimplified Ultimate characters. I think one of the great skills anyone dealing with mass media franchises needs is the ability to just edit stories you don't like out of your memory
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May 3, 2021 05:11
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 Wow, Hoaxer! Harsh! But then maybe it isn't healthy to see everyone around you as a seething bag of malefaction and selfishness, and maybe fiction doesn't have any ethical or aesthetic obligation to glibly present a caricature of our worst selves as a mirror. I really dislike a lot of the Ultimate Marvel stuff. I really really dislike it.
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May 3, 2021 05:46
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Blockhouse posted:I think one of the great skills anyone dealing with mass media franchises needs is the ability to just edit stories you don't like out of your memory this is why i'm sure Daniel Way has never written a comic and you can't convince me otherwise
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May 3, 2021 05:49
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I think in a vacuum the idea of the Ultimates as "the Avengers, but with the moral turpitude that a government-sponsored superteam backed by an unaccountable intelligence agency high on the advent of the Patriot Act might realistically have" isn't a bad one, and I like some parts of Ultimates 1 and 2. I think that vibe really quickly became a series of faded mimeographs from "commentary on the Bush administration's heroic affectations" into "dark, cynical heroes with questionable morals are cool!", though.
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May 3, 2021 07:10
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Alaois posted:this is why i'm sure Daniel Way has never written a comic and you can't convince me otherwise Evil Deadpool is real and your friend.
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May 3, 2021 13:34
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Android Blues posted:I think in a vacuum the idea of the Ultimates as "the Avengers, but with the moral turpitude that a government-sponsored superteam backed by an unaccountable intelligence agency high on the advent of the Patriot Act might realistically have" isn't a bad one, and I like some parts of Ultimates 1 and 2. I think that vibe really quickly became a series of faded mimeographs from "commentary on the Bush administration's heroic affectations" into "dark, cynical heroes with questionable morals are cool!", though. That’s the issue I had with it when I did a re-read last year. The basic concept is solid: this is how super heroes would be in the modern age - regulated, no secret identity trappings, treated like rock stars, and mired in politics. The problem is Millar wrote it, so it quickly devolves into “LOOK HOW loving BADASS THIS IS MOTHERFUCKER!!!! THIS AINT YO MAMA’S AVENGERS, YOU PUSSY!!” Hitch’s artwork saves a lot of it, and it’s still a readable story, but it’s really dated and not just because of the cultural references.
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May 3, 2021 13:48
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Android Blues posted:I think in a vacuum the idea of the Ultimates as "the Avengers, but with the moral turpitude that a government-sponsored superteam backed by an unaccountable intelligence agency high on the advent of the Patriot Act might realistically have" isn't a bad one, and I like some parts of Ultimates 1 and 2. I think that vibe really quickly became a series of faded mimeographs from "commentary on the Bush administration's heroic affectations" into "dark, cynical heroes with questionable morals are cool!", though. And then just completely devolving once Loeb gets his hands in it who didn't even have the high concept Millar was at least trying to reach for and just zeroed in on the edgelord side.
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May 3, 2021 13:51
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I liked the part of Ultimate Final Fantasy I read because it was fun space adventures. I really liked the idea that Reed intentionally made the family celebrities so the general public would accept Ben. Eventually the Greg Land art was too much and I stopped reading, but apparently that saved me from reading the incel parts so that worked out OK. But on the other hand I didn't enjoy Ultimate Spider-Man. It came very highly recommended so I read a lot of it, but it was just not a fun read. It focused so much on how miserable being Spider-Man made Peter Parker, how it just completely hosed his life up. And instead of being it's own thing it felt like a mad dash to establish Ultimate versions of the major Spider-Man villains which were across the board worse than the regular versions.
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May 3, 2021 13:59
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Dawgstar posted:And then just completely devolving once Loeb gets his hands in it who didn't even have the high concept Millar was at least trying to reach for and just zeroed in on the edgelord side. Then when Millar came back, he did the same poo poo Loeb was doing because he very clearly didn't give a poo poo anymore.
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May 3, 2021 14:07
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Ultimates is almost entirely garbage. Ultimate Cap is like a steaming turd left in front of 616 Cap. The only good thing that came of it was pushing 616 Steve into a full on SUPER soldier and that made the leap to the MCU.
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May 3, 2021 14:12
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I liked the era of Ultimate X-Men when Bryan Singer was supposed to do twelve issues starting extremely soon but he was so busy doing a lot of alleged things that he never quite got the scripts in so like Brian Vaughan banged out a Genoshan reality show arc literally called The Most Dangerous Game and Bob Kirkman eventually was like "gently caress it, Cable's Wolverine. your move, Bryan"
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May 3, 2021 14:26
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Gripweed posted:I liked the part of Ultimate Final Fantasy I read because it was fun space adventures. I really liked the idea that Reed intentionally made the family celebrities so the general public would accept Ben. Eventually the Greg Land art was too much and I stopped reading, but apparently that saved me from reading the incel parts so that worked out OK. Part of what I didn’t like about Ultimate Spider-Man is what I don’t like about the MCU Spider-Man - he has very little of the independence or competence that the main universe Spidey has. Part of the greatness of Stan Lee’s stories came from Peter being on his own, learning as he went, and using Spider-man time as a way to vent his problems. He Ultimate and MCU version comes off as a doofus who can’t function without Nick Fury or Tony Stark over his shoulder every 8 seconds
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May 3, 2021 15:20
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GPTribefan posted:Part of what I didn’t like about Ultimate Spider-Man is what I don’t like about the MCU Spider-Man - he has very little of the independence or competence that the main universe Spidey has. Part of the greatness of Stan Lee’s stories came from Peter being on his own, learning as he went, and using Spider-man time as a way to vent his problems. He Ultimate and MCU version comes off as a doofus who can’t function without Nick Fury or Tony Stark over his shoulder every 8 seconds That is not how Ultimate Spider-Man is at all. Fury is almost never around. In fact he makes it a point to tell Peter he's on his own until he's 18 because at that point he's under his jurisdiction. Cap is around for the very end but that's what ends up getting Peter killed.
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May 3, 2021 15:22
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Karma Tornado posted:I liked the era of Ultimate X-Men when Bryan Singer was supposed to do twelve issues starting extremely soon but he was so busy doing a lot of alleged things that he never quite got the scripts in so like Brian Vaughan banged out a Genoshan reality show arc literally called The Most Dangerous Game and Bob Kirkman eventually was like "gently caress it, Cable's Wolverine. your move, Bryan" It goes back further than that and encompasses the majority of the original Ultimate X-Men run. When Millar left (issue 33) Bendis was planning on writing 6-12 issues with David Mack before handing the book off Mack. Then the idea of Singer* taking over the book happened and Mack was out. Bendis ended up writing UXM #34-45 solo, by which point they'd decided that Singer could write the book with assists from Brian K. Vaughn, who was slated to write four issues to give Singer time to come on with UXM #50, but after four issues he was still busy, so BKV wrote #50-60 solo too. Singer was still too busy, and they asked Vaughn to write another year or so of the book while waiting on Singer but he declined, wrote his last arc (#61-64) to tie up loose ends and moved on. So then they asked Kirkman to come in for the same gig (write solo until Singer is ready). One three issue arc turned into three three issues arcs, which then just turned into Kirkman writing the book for two and a half years. So basically one of Marvel's big books was in a holding pattern waiting for Bryan Singer from issue 34 (June 2003) until issue 93 (April 2008), or just under 60% of its total run. Kirkman only left because they were giving all of the non-Spider-Man Ultimate comics to Jeph Loeb's weed carriers from Heroes in the MARCH ON ULTIMATUM. * the original idea was that it would be written by Bryan Singer, Dan Harris, and Mike Dougherty with the latter two presumably doing the heavy lifting.
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May 3, 2021 15:23
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I've always wondered if Harris and Dougherty ever handed anything in, because they clearly were going to be the actual writers with Singer's name on there as a selling point. did they ever do anything? was it just too terrible to actually run? did Singer even have a pitch? I can't remember ever seeing anything about what his run was even supposed to be about, just that he was coming, and soon, for years
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May 3, 2021 15:30
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Rhyno posted:Ultimates is almost entirely garbage. Ultimate Cap is like a steaming turd left in front of 616 Cap. The only good thing that came of it was pushing 616 Steve into a full on SUPER soldier and that made the leap to the MCU. Ultimates is amazing. It's not good, but watching it unfold is unlike anything else you'll ever see. It's so incredibly cruel, shallow and achingly "modern." Everybody was a huge rear end in a top hat. Everybody was a bully and a murderer. Everybody was having sex (which as we all know is a sign of Moral Decline!). Everybody was a psycho. Watching the setting slide from "the real world with superheroes" to "superheroes but its the 90s again and also it's a comic world now" as it tranisitioned from Millar to Loeb was stunning. Then it gets bookended with Ewings' Ultimates, which is also amazing and unlike anything else you'll ever see, but in a good way. Seeing him bring that team back and give them a little moment's grace was honestly touching, and probably more than they deserved considering they were the children of Mark Millar and Jeph Loeb.
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May 3, 2021 15:32
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Ultimate X-Men was already bad enough without having Singer attached to it as well. I'm probably one of the biggest fans of the Ultimate Marvel books around but as far as I'm concerned Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men were never good. Both had good ideas at times but the books themselves were lovely reads. I don't even have the fondness some have for Ultimates because I don't like Hitch's art at all.
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May 3, 2021 15:34
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X-O posted:That is not how Ultimate Spider-Man is at all. Fury is almost never around. In fact he makes it a point to tell Peter he's on his own until he's 18 because at that point he's under his jurisdiction. Cap is around for the very end but that's what ends up getting Peter killed. I agree with GPtribefan, but from a slightly different angle. I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, Ultimate Parker never felt in control, he always felt like he was just getting bounced around from situation to situation. I think that was a big part of why it felt so miserable. And it wasn't just because he was a kid in a universe full of adults(although that certainly didn't help since even when he did teamups there was always that power imbalance), but also because of how many of his villains had connections to Peter Parker. Sure lots of the main Spider-Man's villains have connections to Peter Parker, but they're balanced out by all the others who don't. Whereas in Ultimate the dash to establish the big rogues gallery didn't leave a lot of space for the minor bank robber types. So the result was that Peter Parker becomes Spider-Man, and then suffers a cavalcade of personal crises and traumas. At a certain point Parker's choice to become Spider-Man stops mattering, he's trapped and doesn't have anywhere else to go.
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May 3, 2021 15:44
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X-O posted:That is not how Ultimate Spider-Man is at all. Fury is almost never around. In fact he makes it a point to tell Peter he's on his own until he's 18 because at that point he's under his jurisdiction. Cap is around for the very end but that's what ends up getting Peter killed. Maybe I’m conflating the two then. It’s been a while since I’ve read USM all the way through, maybe it’s time to revisit
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May 3, 2021 15:47
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Edge & Christian posted:It goes back further than that and encompasses the majority of the original Ultimate X-Men run. When Millar left (issue 33) Bendis was planning on writing 6-12 issues with David Mack before handing the book off Mack. Then the idea of Singer* taking over the book happened and Mack was out. And don’t forget this was on top of the delays with the book from the very beginning! UXM was supposed to launch before USM almost a year prior , to coincide with the X-Men movie, but they couldn’t get Bendis to write it and Spider-Man together. They finally had to settle on Millar, so they lost THAT movie synergy as well. Miller’s run on UXM was more toned down than the Ultimates and it ended up being a pretty good read for the most part.
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May 3, 2021 15:55
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i read a chunk of ultimate x-men last year and the rah rah jingoism in a post 9/11 world has not aged well, to say the least
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May 3, 2021 16:22
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Cloks posted:i read a chunk of ultimate x-men last year and the rah rah jingoism in a post 9/11 world has not aged well, to say the least Also deciding to make Logan/Jean a thing but Jean like 18-ish at most and Logan much, much older is very on brand for Millar.
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May 3, 2021 16:38
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Ultimates 1 was decent and interesting at the time but, and this is obviously a low bar, I remember coming away thinking the post ultimatum ultimate avengers, new ultimates, and hickman's ultimate comics (what a stupid rebrand) ultimates were better. They just don't seem to enter the conversation that much
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May 3, 2021 16:38
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site posted:Ultimates 1 was decent and interesting at the time but, and this is obviously a low bar, I remember coming away thinking the post ultimatum ultimate avengers, new ultimates, and hickman's ultimate comics (what a stupid rebrand) ultimates were better. They just don't seem to enter the conversation that much Ultimate Comics Ultimates maybe one of the clunkiest and most awkward comic titles ever.
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May 3, 2021 17:15
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GPTribefan posted:And don’t forget this was on top of the delays with the book from the very beginning! UXM was supposed to launch before USM almost a year prior , to coincide with the X-Men movie, but they couldn’t get Bendis to write it and Spider-Man together. They finally had to settle on Millar, so they lost THAT movie synergy as well. So they rushed out Ultimate Spider-Man with the idea that they'd have a couple trades of it ready by the time the Spider-Man movie came out. Editor in Chief Bob Harras was pitching like Howard Mackie and Terry Kavanagh to write the new line, whereas Marvel Knights editor Joe Quesada was suggesting Bendis, who was originally going to write both. Harras was replaced in August 2000, a few weeks before Ultimate Spider-Man #1 came out. UXM followed in December, just a few months after USM #1.
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May 3, 2021 17:30
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USM was the first comic I was into, at the target age I guess (young teen- also a continuity nerd who liked the cartoons but gently caress getting into 40 years of comics), it and Ultimates 1 were sweet. 2 was... well the Ultron stuff was weird, and Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver... I never bothered with UXM, boring group. UFF was cool, ESPECIALLY the Zombies comics. God both FF Zombie arcs and Zombies 1/2 were good. The loving Reed making a teleporter out of a pen gag Gah-Lak-Tus was top notch too. Then U3 and Ultimatum happened and I didn't read anything til last year lol. Thanks Jeph.
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May 4, 2021 01:37
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I really regretted reading all of Last Rites. What if . . . Spider-Man actually is and was the baddie all along? Is not a take I really have a lot of time for when it's mostly involving the Osbournes. I'm sure somewhere along the line it'll turn the other way but at the rate Spencer tells stories that'll be two years from now.
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May 5, 2021 00:36
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That guy has a lot of bad ideas.
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May 5, 2021 02:58
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Lurdiak posted:That guy has a lot of bad ideas. Yeah and it doesn't even makes sense, Spider-Man pretty constantly blames himself for all his problems so acting like he just hasn't been aware of the negative impact he has on people is a pretty big wiff.
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May 5, 2021 06:37
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Rick posted:Yeah and it doesn't even makes sense, Spider-Man pretty constantly blames himself for all his problems so acting like he just hasn't been aware of the negative impact he has on people is a pretty big wiff. I haven't been reading it so I didn't know what was happening, but what? seriously?
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May 5, 2021 07:17
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Yeah the whole "maybe saving people is bad!?" thing sucks.
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May 5, 2021 10:37
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Hey, quick question: Is THIS the best Hawkeye omnibus for a complete, self-contained plot that doesn't assume that readers have heaps of prior comic knowledge? Since it seems like there are a few others around, according to wikipedia. A friend spoke highly of the series when it was being written a while back (since it's done now, right?) so I figured I'd try to bag the whole thing in one go, so I don't need to either keep up with issues, or only have half the story Since yeah, I've been in the mood for graphic novels lately, but I haven't read much in the wqy of comics. So most of what I know Marvel-wise comes from either the films, random wiki lookups/reading, plus negligible comic knowledge. Also, if you have any other general omnibus/'complete collection' recs that are self-contained and don't cost $500, I'd greatly appreciate it! 
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May 5, 2021 10:58
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Yeah, that series is great and very self contained. Even if you don't know the history of the characters, it's pretty easy to pick up based on the story cues. Can't recommend Fraction and Aja Hawkeye enough. And if you dig that, their Iron Fist run is really great as well. Again no real prior knowledge needed.
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May 5, 2021 11:17
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Fraction's Hawkeye run was one of the first things I read when I got an Unlimited sub and yeah it basically stands alone from everything else. There are a couple of characters from other comics but their deal is always explained in a way that doesn't assume prior knowledge. It's mostly just a story about an idiot guy who shoots a bow and his good good dog. Last night I read the first few issues of Incredible Hulk (1962) and was surprised by how much I enjoyed them. They're just pure sci fi pulp and there's a fantastic purity about that. I'm not sure if I'll read the full run of Tales to Astonish or just skip to where the Hulk gets reintroduced but I like the idea of slowly reading my way through Hulk history.
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May 5, 2021 11:22
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Excellent, glad to hear it! I'll pick it up then I think, if that's the case - sounds good. I'm definitely up for any other recommendations still, though! 
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May 5, 2021 12:21
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Major Isoor posted:Hey, quick question: Is THIS the best Hawkeye omnibus for a complete, self-contained plot that doesn't assume that readers have heaps of prior comic knowledge? If you can get Bendis' Daredevil run cheap that's pretty self contained with no prior knowledge. If you've seen the Netflix series you'll know the rest of the cast even things are slightly different.
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May 5, 2021 12:30
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I'll look it up, thanks! (Just about to go to bed, is all) ...Also uh, sorry if this isn't strictly-speaking the thread to ask, but where can I actually BUY the hawkeye collection? (In in Australia btw, so anywhere that ships internationally for a non-extortionate amount's fine by me, heh) Since I've googled around a bit, but it seems like the only copy I can find is an international secondhand copy selling for just over $200 plus shipping. Looks like everywhere that lists it for sale down here is out of stock...
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May 5, 2021 13:12
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