|
Hakkesshu posted:It is why I will always stick up for the Squid ending of Watchmen. Those images are burned into my head forever, while the movie version is so sterile and undramatic. For the the themes of the comic, the squid is an absolute narrative necessity! Watchmen as an adaption would work so much better nowadays for the same reason Invincibly does, audience are just so much more familiar with the narrative tropes of comicbool superheroes.
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 14:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:26 |
|
|
When I was a dumb kid I thought the Dr. Manhattan ending made more sense in the context of the universe and then when I got older and read the novel I realized it only made sense because the context of the movie lacked any multidimensionality or nuanced ideas
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 14:54
|
|
|
The edits for this show are already incredible. Mix in anything else JK's been in and you're spinning gold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pBiY0CL-r8
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 14:57
|
|
|
I'm not really a big fan of violence or gore, animated or otherwise, but I'm inclined to agree that the show used it well. The first episode kind of works fantastically in that regard - I went it knowing people compared this to The Boys, so I was expecting some kind of darker side - hell, I was expecting the security guard at the start to die since it was the tropey "3 days till retirement" sort of thing. But then you go a whole episode without a drop of blood, with this almost totally normal "getting your powers" story into a late title card drop which feels like the end of the episode. Then you get the twist, and it's brutal as all hell - the kills almost feel excessive, but it makes a lot of sense in a weird sort of "realism" sense? Omni man isn't holding back at all, and is just trying to wipe out the Guardians as fast and efficiently as he can. Bedshaped posted:When I was a dumb kid I thought the Dr. Manhattan ending made more sense in the context of the universe and then when I got older and read the novel I realized it only made sense because the context of the movie lacked any multidimensionality or nuanced ideas
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 15:18
|
|
|
Oxyclean posted:I was expecting the security guard at the start to die since it was the tropey "3 days till retirement" sort of thing. Speaking of this, this plot, uh, didn't go anywhere did it? I remember his kid was in Episode 6, but I fell asleep in it and never bothered to go back. I also distinctly remember an ancient zombie dude that turned up for about thirty seconds before never being referenced again, in the Mars episode. At the time I chalked it up to some weird metaphorical stuff, along the lines of the John Carpenter pastiche present in the rest of the episode, but I was pretty sure it was set on Earth and never gets referenced again either.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:Speaking of this, this plot, uh, didn't go anywhere did it? It doesn't really go anywhere from what I recall, just silly background. That said, the big bloody splatter that happened in that episode was the trashbag that was thrown in the first. Took me a second to pick up on. I think the ancient zombie thing was just supposed to be a silly subversion. Here's a cold open with some mysterious thing and a new threat. No wait, problem solved by accident because Mark did a flyby. I'm not sure what to make of the stuff from the end of the Mars episode - I assume it's a hook for later? I think that was a Martian that hitched a ride back, rather then the parasite alien?
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 15:43
|
|
|
There's a great interview with Noah Hawley, the guy who wrote Fargo, where he talks about violence in fiction. I'm paraphrasing, but iirc he thinks it's best used when it's 1) not glorified, 2) shown as consequential, 3) it's horrific. This show is gore-y, but I actually think it treats the violence with a lot more respect than most shows – it's clearly shown to be awful, painful, and tragic. Henchmen getting blown apart by their own bullets ricocheting off a stone guy is background, they're given weight. Crowds being mowed down is presented as horrifying. It's good. The V.O. cast is nuts too. Tho J.K. Simmons is an MVP. Dude is great at conveying undertones of menace while speaking calmly. CatstropheWaitress fucked around with this message at 16:43 on May 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
Oxyclean posted:I might need to re-read the graphic novel. I got it after seeing the movie but I guess I must have not really picked up on things, because I always thought the Dr Manhatten ending worked well. One of the major themes of the comic is how the superhero approach to problem solving doesn't actually work, or at least doesn't provide long term solution. E.g. dressing up in a costume isn't actually going to affect crime rates to any reasonable degree and becoming a post human entity is more likely to alienate you completely from humanity instead of making into a heroic figure. And Adrian's scheme is part of that theme. It is a major recurring element in superhero comics, that superhero teams form as a response to a huge threat that they can't fight individually. Alien invaders are a good choice for that, because they combine several factors that makes them a dangerous foe. They are an army, so they have the numbers, they have superior technology, so they can harm the superpowered hero and they have the hostile intent to harm a lot of people, so the stakes are high and ddepending on how alien you make them, you can also have your heroes go all out against them. And you can see this pattern in various super hero media. Almost every iteration of the Justice League is formed to fight alien invaders and it happens in the animated series and the movie too. The Avengers movie is also about them fighting of an invading army, same the grand final. Adrian Veidt draws upon that exact trope to end the Cold War, trying to create an alien threat to bring the nations of the worlds together.He basically wants to create a comic book crossover event to bring about world peace. But just like superheroes don't really solve crime, superhero threats wont solve international crises. So the fact that it is a unrealistic and outlandish is kind of the point. It also tells us a lot about Osymandias and Rorschach, namely that they aren't that different, both still think about the worlds in terms of superhero comics. e X fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 5, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 17:04
|
|
|
I guess that makes sense, mostly with regards to specifically being non-Hero. Though, Dr. Manhattan being effectively de-humanized feels like he makes for nearly as good of an "alien threat," or at least, its not far off from the "what if superman but no morals" kind of theme we've seen with Invincible and The Boys.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
Robobot posted:Wow. If those are actual comic panels it's very impressive how well they convert the action and movements into still pictures. Those are all hand drawn comic panels, I remember reading those chapters when they came out, no extra generated motion cells were added to those gifs. White Light fucked around with this message at 06:55 on May 10, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 17:20
|
|
|
JK Simmons kinda carried this season, hope they keep up the strong casting
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 17:26
|
|
|
Kulkasha posted:Image was founded as creator-centered iirc, and as a result the various titles have a greater sense of creative continuity. One thing that stuck out to me about reading Invincible was occasionally seeing Savage Dragon or Spawn show up, but there was never a multi-title special event where you had to buy 12 different comics just to know what was happening, and there was never a later writer coming on the series who wanted to roll back everything the previous guy had done so that his favorite superhero would go back to how they were when they were a kid reading comics (cough, Johns, cough). You just don't have to worry about that other poo poo, unlike with Marvel or DC. I can only imagine what would have happened if someone like Kirby was able to work in such a company during his time. Yeah it's nice that a company obsessed with such dumb BS in 90s became really cool. I still find a lot of American comics to have pretty unattractive illustrations (Ryan Ottley, Stuart Immonen, Tim Sale, and Adrian Alphona are some notable exceptions) but it's mostly the switching writers and artists thing that makes me steer well clear of Marvel and DC.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 18:23
|
|
|
internet do your thing! https://twitter.com/RetroFirearms/status/1389956216739205121?s=20
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 18:31
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:JK Simmons kinda carried this season, hope they keep up the strong casting I've been rewatching Legend of Korra and Simmons has a great range. As Tenzin he does the tired dad who can be a bit firm when he wants to perfectly, which is so different from Nolan's much clearer enunciation and authoritative delivery. Really a great actor. Also, not to beat a dead horse, but I was kind of assuming that art director who had a problem with the representation of Korean-Americans in Invincible was Korean-American. But I follow him on twitter and he talked about how he's Indonesian-Canadian. So now I'm even more confused.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
Oxyclean posted:I'm not sure what to make of the stuff from the end of the Mars episode - I assume it's a hook for later? I think that was a Martian that hitched a ride back, rather then the parasite alien? Nah its definitely a parasite, they show a quick clip in the next episode of a couple other people being infected by the parasite. I assume they're building up to the parasite being an enemy force in the next season. That or its going to be another throwaway gag like the desert where the parasite starts to build an army and then Mark just punks them all in 2 minutes.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:06
|
|
|
The World Inferno posted:There's a great interview with Noah Hawley, the guy who wrote Fargo, where he talks about violence in fiction. I'm paraphrasing, but iirc he thinks it's best used when it's 1) not glorified, 2) shown as consequential, 3) it's horrific. Yeah, IMO having lots of violence but having it be clean and easy, people just get hit or shot and they just die bloodlessly without complaint, that's IMO far more "gratuitous" violence than the stuff in this show. Killing people should be uncomfortable. That's the point. If you're killing people and its comfortable, that's potentially worse. It goes into my biggest pet peeve about fiction which is being able to just knock someone out for hours conveniently. Human beings don't work that way. In real life if you're sneaking into a military base and a soldier finds you, your options are basically to kill the soldier or run the heck away. But the writers don't want the hero to kill some random guard for just doing his job, so "oh he's knocked out, just taking a nap, he'll be fine" Killing people bloodlessly feels the same to me. Its a cop-out that lets people have their violence cake and eat it too.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:10
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Nah its definitely a parasite, they show a quick clip in the next episode of a couple other people being infected by the parasite. Huh, guess I missed the thing in the following episode. Then what was the US flag shifting about, about? It didn't seem the parasites had shapeshifting/mimicry, and they didn't seem small enough to like, hide as a small detail on someone's suit. What made sense to me was a martian (who maybe got parasited) shapeshifted into an astronaut - while one real infected astronaut got left behind. I'm wagering that the whole "parasites can't get martians because of their shapeshifting" isn't totally true, and the parasites just let the Martians believe that until they had a way off.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Oxyclean posted:Huh, guess I missed the thing in the following episode. Then what was the US flag shifting about, about? It didn't seem the parasites had shapeshifting/mimicry, and they didn't seem small enough to like, hide as a small detail on someone's suit. What made sense to me was a martian (who maybe got parasited) shapeshifted into an astronaut - while one real infected astronaut got left behind. I'm wagering that the whole "parasites can't get martians because of their shapeshifting" isn't totally true, and the parasites just let the Martians believe that until they had a way off. I assumed it was two things: a Martian infiltrator on the shuttle and a possessed human still on Mars.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:27
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:I assumed it was two things: a Martian infiltrator on the shuttle and a possessed human still on Mars. Correct. Speaking of violence in comic movies 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Doc Ock as Omni-Man just looks like Dr. Eggman
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:Spawn was like 20+ years ago at this point. right, and only six people watched it
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
There was also "The Maxx" although I'm not sure you can even call what that was animated. The thing about those shows is they were abberations airing in late night slots. Invincible represents a major breakthrough of animation getting to stand beside prestige superhero shows like The Boys. I'm just imagining an adaption of Watchmen that got the proper treatment of being a limited series animated adaption that could retain all the details and color choices of the source material. It'll never happn, its time has passed, but it could have been amazing.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 20:26
|
|
|
It reminds me of the old 90s ultra violent animes that we had to trade on tapes like Ninja Scrolls or Vampire Hunter D. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was an intentional parallel, given the Akira homage in episode 7. Stuff like that is old hat now but when I was a lad, we'd never seen anything that graphic. It was way more graphic than even actual Hollywood gore movies.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 20:53
|
|
|
Primal was pretty violent, some of the later episodes are about on the same level as Invincible gore wise.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2021 20:55
|
|
|
As a big fan of the original comic from close to the start who has reread it a few times, I've got to say I like all of the narrative expansion the show has chosen. JK Simmons was the perfect casting for Omni-Man. He's menacing but can also intone true warmth. I like that the show took time to show his reluctance at what he was doing often, while still going full blown anime-gorey with the fight scenes. The bloody civilian deaths are essential to this story. A fight between comics-level Supermen should be an ugly, blood splattered, national tragedy event.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 00:36
|
|
|
Ccs posted:There was also "The Maxx" although I'm not sure you can even call what that was animated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLdqKIj3-A0 Not the same, but the motion comic version of watchmen is pretty awesome and I think stands up against the Snyder film, its interesting to compare them. Really lets you appreciate the original art and color choices and stuff like you were saying. zoux posted:It reminds me of the old 90s ultra violent animes that we had to trade on tapes like Ninja Scrolls or Vampire Hunter D. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was an intentional parallel, given the Akira homage in episode 7. Stuff like that is old hat now but when I was a lad, we'd never seen anything that graphic. It was way more graphic than even actual Hollywood gore movies. Uh, what hollywood gore movies are you watching? This sounds really out of touch. Invincible is violent, but it was infinitely less graphic than Saw 2, much less the later Saw films or Hostel or half of modern Hollywood horror films. I guess maybe you mean Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D is a bit violent but not that graphic... and I guess you meant Hollywood horror films back then? But even then, there was plenty of gory horror films even back in the 80s and poo poo, Cannibal Holocaust and all that. Again, Invincible is straight up nothing like that. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:01 on May 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 04:55
|
|
|
GlassEye-Boy posted:Primal was pretty violent, some of the later episodes are about on the same level as Invincible gore wise. It is. Primal even hits me harder than Invincible does, not sure why. I guess its a more personal story, where Invincible having some random people die is sad but you're less attached to them. They did a good job of getting us a bit attached to the Guardians in just a few minutes before Omni-man killed them though.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 05:00
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:They did a good job of getting us a bit attached to the Guardians in just a few minutes before Omni-man killed them though. Certainly more than the comic, their introduction there was everyone getting paged to go to the secret base
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 06:36
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:It is. Primal even hits me harder than Invincible does, not sure why. I guess its a more personal story, where Invincible having some random people die is sad but you're less attached to them. You just got me to watch Primal and it hit me hard right off the bat. I also have no idea why but I love this show as well. Thank you goon as I would have missed this.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 06:55
|
|
|
DogsInSpace! posted:You just got me to watch Primal and it hit me hard right off the bat. I also have no idea why but I love this show as well. Thank you goon as I would have missed this. What's also cool is its the brainchild of Genndy Tartakovsky, aka the guy who did Dexter's Lab (And Samurai Jack, and the good Clone Wars) Also the lack of dialogue is really captivating.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 07:13
|
|
|
Azhais posted:Certainly more than the comic, their introduction there was everyone getting paged to go to the secret base I did like the gimmick they used in the comic to introduce the guardians. Kirkman got different artists to do each Guardian’s intro in a different style fitting the character (War Woman’s art was very Kirbyesque work from Mark Englert, Dave Johnson drew Aquarius’ intro, Cliff Rathburn did Green Ghost, etc).
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 16:00
|
|
|
Talking about the dead guardians, wonder if they will add the (minor spoilers) aquaman guardian subplot related to Mark into future seasons since it involves huge fish tits.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:I did like the gimmick they used in the comic to introduce the guardians. Kirkman got different artists to do each Guardian’s intro in a different style fitting the character (War Woman’s art was very Kirbyesque work from Mark Englert, Dave Johnson drew Aquarius’ intro, Cliff Rathburn did Green Ghost, etc). Haha I totally forgot about that. It was a cool touch. I'm looking for other good American comics to read and I really want to check out Ms. Marvel, but the artist changes every 3 issues or so. Insane. You get used to the way one artist draws a character's face and composes a scene and then they snatch it away from you and suddenly its like new actors and a new director of photography took over. Why American comics, why...
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 16:39
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLdqKIj3-A0 I think you might remember those films as considerably more graphic than they were, most of the 00's 'Torture Porn' flicks are fairly tame when it comes to gore and get misremembered as a result of extremely absurd levels of moral outrage at the time as well as how uncomfortable some of the violence can be. Saw 2 in particular is barely gory at all compared to pretty much any gore-included horror metric. But I think that really does highlight why the gore and the violence in Invincible works: because it's the point, and because it's uncomfortable. My favorite moments in this kind of fiction comes from where they really do edge closer to horror territory--this is much more apt in The Boys, where any scene with Homelander is genuinely terrifying. Omni-Man is even more terrifying from our perspective, and a lot of the violence is him showing the world why they should be terrified too, not just to Mark.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 19:10
|
|
|
Sab Sabbington posted:
Early season two Boys: https://youtu.be/hXM4R-D7SpQ
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 21:16
|
|
|
Sab Sabbington posted:I think you might remember those films as considerably more graphic than they were, most of the 00's 'Torture Porn' flicks are fairly tame when it comes to gore and get misremembered as a result of extremely absurd levels of moral outrage at the time as well as how uncomfortable some of the violence can be. Saw 2 in particular is barely gory at all compared to pretty much any gore-included horror metric. What. Are you seriously, seriously arguing that Hostel is less gorey than Invincible?  No dude I'm not misremembering anything. Please don't insult me like that by assuming I must be biased because of a 'moral panic' in the public. No, this is my legitimate opinion, I've seen those films recently, and I've seen Invincible recently. And you're crazy. Yes, Saw 2 isn't very gorey compared to lots of other gore horror. But Invincible has even less! That's the point. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 21:34
|
|
|
Idk Invincible has quite a lot of crushed skulls.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
Ccs posted:Haha I totally forgot about that. It was a cool touch. Here's stuff from my collection that's real good that has (imo) good art. Mignola is my favorite artist, but I assume you've read Hellboy East of West (Hickman/Dragotta) Black Magic (Rucka/Scott) Anything Brubaker/Phillips like Fatale, The Fade Out, or Sleeper Kill Six Billion Demons (Tom Parkinson Morgan - this is a webcomic but I hate reading in a browser so I got ebooks on comixology. The art is straight Moebius, it's fantastic) Southern Bastards (Aaron/Latour) Any of the Gillen/McKelvie collabs like Young Avengers vol. 2 or Wicked + Divine Specifically Marvel stuff: Fraction/Aja collabs like Hawkeye and Immortal Iron Fist Astonishing X-men (Whedon/Cassaday - Cassaday has lost a step but his work in AXM is his best, beating even Planetary imo) Thor: God of Thunder (Aaron/Ribic/Svorcina, though there is a fill-in artist between the ending and beginning arc) zoux fucked around with this message at 22:16 on May 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
Yeah invincible has tons of gore in terms of quantity, and its over several episodes so barely any movie will be able to contend with it on that level
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:26 |
|
|
Oh one thing that occurred to me yesterday is that the type of graphic gore/body horror I'm talking about is perfectly on display in The Second Renaissance Part II of the Animatrix. The robots experimenting on humans, like the vertcally bisected person being vivisected or the brain stimmed guy, and the way the robots killed humans they were fighting - like when that guy gets his torso pulled out of his mech - is super evocative and disturbing and I can still vividly recall these scenes even though I haven't seen it in a decade. I think it serves a similar purpose as Invincible, where humans are reduced simply to parts of meat, and it's very effective.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 22:14
|
|