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I do like that scene with the merchant and Fordola, but I'd be pissed if that's all we got and they called that good. Fortunately they're clearly not done with Fordola, and I imagine she won't consider that one exchange a pass either. As for Emet... well I know nobody agrees with me that the Scions don't really give enough of a voice to that, especially when that voice is completely ignored by both the game and Emet. But as to 'well an Allagan was there and had the last laugh'... that's nice, but he didn't oppress them, I'd prefer to hear from the Meracydians. Given the fact we hear from one of only apparently two still-living Meracydians on related issues, and she's still pretty pissed, I kinda would've preferred to see how she feels about 'remember that we lived'. Or sparing that, maybe someone like, say... Raubahn or Lyse, refugees that suffered explicitly because of Emet's second empire.
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May 6, 2021 03:26
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the entire point of 'remember that we lived' is him pleading with you, the person with him in his final moments, to remember that his people existed as a people before they became the monsters the WoL killed. It's not absolving, it's a tragic request from someone who was so sure he was the hero in the story only to realize he was completely wrong. It's not about how Tiamat or Lyse feels about that request, it wasn't to them, and it has nothing to do with the Emet we saw all through Shadowbringers, it was a deeply personal plea from the man he used to be to someone who managed to embody his lost people even as a 'broken husk'.
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May 6, 2021 03:34
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Cleretic posted:especially when that voice is completely ignored by both the game dude we kill him for it, the gently caress man
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May 6, 2021 03:37
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erenoyo posted:dude we kill him for it, the gently caress man See, I felt more like they killed him to rescue the Exarch, because the Scions are more about saving people than bloody vengeance. It's just that Emet refused to get out of the way until we put a hole in him.
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May 6, 2021 03:44
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Bruceski posted:Fordola is fighting as a soldier for the people she oppressed, basically a long-term penance until she dies atoning. Others are trying to convince her there's ways to atone without her death at the end of it, she's not buying that yet. I honestly can't say I really know what I would find satisfying. She's definitely preventing further harm but she's not really addressed the harm she's caused. At the same time, I dunno if the type of things she and Gaius have done can be redeemed or forgiven. At the same same time, it's not like war criminals irl don't get off scott free with some really heinous poo poo so I can't argue that it isn't realistic. I dunno, in an age where fascism is on the rise I just kind of hate to see these types of people redeemed.
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May 6, 2021 03:46
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Dragons loving love remembering poo poo.
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May 6, 2021 03:46
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the only acceptable storytelling is if, after saying "remember that we lived" the WoL looks at the camera and says "no the things you did are very bad emet selch, and i will not"Valleyant posted:I honestly can't say I really know what I would find satisfying. She's definitely preventing further harm but she's not really addressed the harm she's caused. At the same time, I dunno if the type of things she and Gaius have done can be redeemed or forgiven. At the same same time, it's not like war criminals irl don't get off scott free with some really heinous poo poo so I can't argue that it isn't realistic. she can't regenerate the people she killed but she is a literal slave soldier being forced to protect the people she used to oppress
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May 6, 2021 03:47
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Cleretic posted:See, I felt more like they killed him to rescue the Exarch, because the Scions are more about saving people than bloody vengeance. It's just that Emet refused to get out of the way until we put a hole in him. the exarch was literally fine, he helped summon people to murder Emet, if he was our goal we could have hosed off with that energy and left Emet in his under sea play place. We killed him because it was clear he'd never accept our truth and would continue to test the mortal realms with his genocide and conquest. One of our last line options to say to him pre-fight is literally 'it ends here'. Come on, people tease you for being obtuse but this just feels like actively pretending you skipped the entire finale of SHB just to make this point.
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May 6, 2021 03:48
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also someone suggested banning the word "fascist" as a joke itt but i think we should do it
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May 6, 2021 03:48
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sexpig by night posted:the exarch was literally fine, he helped summon people to murder Emet, if he was our goal we could have hosed off with that energy and left Emet in his under sea play place. We killed him because it was clear he'd never accept our truth and would continue to test the mortal realms with his genocide and conquest. Actually we needed the Exarch's help to not die, and were worried about him since he, you know, got shot, so he probably wasn't making the trip back in a timely manner. If we didn't go to the Tempest we would've been overcome by the Light just as an inevitability (as you remember, it almost happened right at Emet's feet), thereby killing us and whatever planet we were on at the time. We survived 'without the Exarch's help' because Emet gave us a great big target to expel a bunch of Light at, but that was NOT the plan, we didn't even know that would happen until it did. The fact that they were both at the same place let us kill two birds with one stone (and in that metaphor the stone was also a third bird), but everything about our trip there seemed framed that, if we at any point had to choose between 'rescue the Exarch' or 'murder Emet in his face', we'd be picking the former easily.
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May 6, 2021 04:00
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The Exarch's plan to save us was to kill himself, which the WoL would never have allowed to happen, so it was absolutely not about saving us.
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May 6, 2021 04:02
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Cleretic posted:Actually we needed the Exarch's help to not die, and were worried about him since he, you know, got shot, so he probably wasn't making the trip back in a timely manner. If we didn't go to the Tempest we would've been overcome by the Light just as an inevitability (as you remember, it almost happened right at Emet's feet), thereby killing us and whatever planet we were on at the time. the exarch's plan we actively hosed up was for him to die for us before emet nabbed him. We were worried about him but we went to save him and to find a way to fix the Light that didn't involve him dying for us and that choice was made fairly quickly for us by Emet being all 'come see the end of the world and see if you could handle it' and deciding to get angry enough to confront us when we actually good. We confront him still dying of Light Poisoning to the point where we can barely walk to him, but we and the Scions literally keep attacking him because *that's the only acceptable way to end this at that point*. Again, Exarch shows up healthier than even Emet expected and uses his crystal magic to summon us a party of buddies to finish the fight once and for all. If the goal was saving the Exarch we probably would have told him to just use that same magic to teleport us back to the Tower or something, instead HE chooses to empower us to fight Emet with the force of OTHER WARRIORS OF LIGHT HE WOULD ALSO PUT IN DANGER WITH HIS AGENDA. We, the people tasked with guarding the realms he was putting in danger stand together to say 'no further, this is where it has to end'.
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May 6, 2021 04:09
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Badger of Basra posted:personally i want to see a werlyttian call gaius an rear end in a top hat when he asks them to sign off on a purchase order for some construction supplies No joke I actually think that would be good to show, and also show how Gaius grapples with it. Fordola has sort of the same thing happen as background Echo radiation. She's keenly aware of just how much everyone hates her and why and that they have legit reason to. E:: As for Emet-Selch yeah I have to agree with the chorus of "this is resolved as neatly as it possibly could be, given the stakes and circumstances", even if I/my WoL would've reacted to the "remember that we once lived" with putting on shades while saying "bitch I've already forgotten you". Kyrosiris fucked around with this message at 04:14 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 04:10
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yea I'll actually agree Gaius got too soft an ending, unless EW surprises me and involves him (I really doubt it, the trials post MSQ tend to be pretty self contained) he did kinda just get off with 'aw beans my kids are dead, welp better not examine how this pain is probably like the pain I've caused countless others, what's this, a job with the resistance? Oh goody.'
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May 6, 2021 04:14
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I think he plenty realized what he did wrong.
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May 6, 2021 04:16
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I think he plenty realized what he did wrong. Oh sure, I think that's what the scene with the synthetic auracite at the end is supposed to be. On the other hand, it's still very Gaius-centric. Other than the couple of people who were acting as essentially his wardens, there's no examination of how the formerly subjugated people of Werlyt are getting on with Literally The Black Lion showing up and being put in charge of restorations. I think a dusting of giving a voice to the victims in that case would be beneficial to the overall plot. It doesn't have to be a lot - Fordola's narrative has just the right dashes of it applied here and there - but I think Random Werlyt Citizen 467 rubbing Gaius's nose in it would have more impact, if not to the character in the narrative than to the people observing said narrative. Could just be my take though.
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May 6, 2021 04:19
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Kyrosiris posted:Oh sure, I think that's what the scene with the synthetic auracite at the end is supposed to be. Hmmm..I don't necessarily disagree but I have trouble thinking of a way they can do it without it seeming kinda hackneyed.
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May 6, 2021 04:21
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Gaius's victims wanted him to helm their revolutionary measures. They've already made their choice.
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May 6, 2021 04:24
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I think he plenty realized what he did wrong. he did but him getting instantly accepted into the resistance felt...forced to me. Like if it was just 'wow...this was some poo poo huh, WoL? Welp, I'm gonna go back to wandering and try to sort this poo poo out' and hell even give him a 'I don't forgive you, but thank you' moment too and I'm down, but having it just instantly transition to 'and we now trust you implicitly' was a bit much.
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May 6, 2021 04:24
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sexpig by night posted:he did but him getting instantly accepted into the resistance felt...forced to me. Like if it was just 'wow...this was some poo poo huh, WoL? Welp, I'm gonna go back to wandering and try to sort this poo poo out' and hell even give him a 'I don't forgive you, but thank you' moment too and I'm down, but having it just instantly transition to 'and we now trust you implicitly' was a bit much. Remember he had been paling around with that crew of his for a while, I think them giving the thumbs up to the others about him is probably good enough for most people.
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May 6, 2021 04:27
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hmmm..I don't necessarily disagree but I have trouble thinking of a way they can do it without it seeming kinda hackneyed. There's practically a subgenre of social media videos in Australia where regular people hurt by recent tragedies like bushfires or the pandemic ruin publicity appearances by the Prime Minister of him helping or meeting the affected, because he's been doing a pretty bad job of prevention or proper response. Just picture your usual politician PR video clip, except the guy he's supposed to be helping just tells him to gently caress off and leaves. I can assure you from seeing it, it's not hackneyed. And Gaius seems the type to take that in an interesting and compelling way. I fully endorse giving Gaius a drive-by 'gently caress you' scene and seeing how he handles it.
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May 6, 2021 04:31
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Remember he had been paling around with that crew of his for a while, I think them giving the thumbs up to the others about him is probably good enough for most people. yea I guess I am forgetting that element. Still feels a bit lame but yea I guess with the context of them knowing him well that is less of a 'we decided you're a good guy now' feeling.
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May 6, 2021 04:32
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ImpAtom posted:I don't really think you know what "sweeps under the rug" means and you pretty bluntly are letting your emotions make you ignore a huge chunk of actual plot. A dozen different people have said this exact same thing to Cleretic to get the exact same response but worded differently and with other bits of the plot ignored to justify it. Forget it Imp, It's stupid town.
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May 6, 2021 04:34
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his elf friend's stated purpose in following gaius around is "if he does bad again i will slit his throat without hesitation" and that's a fairly decent insurance plan
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May 6, 2021 04:34
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Kerrzhe posted:his elf friend's stated purpose in following gaius around is "if he does bad again i will slit his throat without hesitation" and that's a fairly decent insurance plan Wizard lady however, I dunno what her deal is.
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May 6, 2021 04:35
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Cleretic posted:There's practically a subgenre of social media videos in Australia where regular people hurt by recent tragedies like bushfires or the pandemic ruin publicity appearances by the Prime Minister of him helping or meeting the affected, because he's been doing a pretty bad job of prevention or proper response. Just picture your usual politician PR video clip, except the guy he's supposed to be helping just tells him to gently caress off and leaves. My senior year of high school my hometown burned from a forest fire that got out of control when the winds shifted. The damage was bad enough but it was clear there was a lot of recovery ahead of us and for those of us who had to get back to AP tests and college prep it felt like we were abandoning the town. At graduation some state senator proudly declared us the "class of [fire]" saying that our resilience to it would define us. I have never been prouder of a boo in my life. The whole class responded the same.
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May 6, 2021 05:23
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Badger of Basra posted:also someone suggested banning the word "fascist" as a joke itt but i think we should do it this will continue to be a terrible idea as long as the game explores themes of fascism with its antagonists
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May 6, 2021 05:58
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SirSamVimes posted:this will continue to be a terrible idea as long as the game explores themes of fascism with its antagonists It doesn't though. The Garlean empire is a classically imperialist empire in the shape of Rome or the British empire and Zenos is just a nihilist who doesn't believe in anything past the next combat high. Neither have the characteristics that distinguish modern fascism from any other type of expansionist empire through history and it just leads to people making interminable self-righteous tracts about what good anti-fascists they are for wanting to see every Garlean launched into space or whatever
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May 6, 2021 07:47
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Furthermore, bluntly, Gaius conquering states is just how empires work. We're generally led to believe that Gaius was an able administrator and a reasonably unbiased governor of his conquered territories. Werlyt and Terncliff will probably want him back because a significant portion of their armed forces are probably veterans of the 14th themselves. He's an able general, and is willing to lend his practical expertise to their conquest, defense and reconstruction. That's literally how this sort of thing is supposed to work - he wasn't running death camps, he wasn't committing war crimes or crimes against humanity (not that either concept even exists in Hydaelyn given that Bozja is absolutely full of war crimes). He was an enemy general who switched sides with a retinue of loyal aides, and incorporating people like that is a typical choice for states. You don't want to punish people for going over to your side; that's how you no longer get any more turncoats. There's not going to be any sort of Nuremberg trials for Garleans; there's no notion of international law in the first place to try them under. Fordola and Misija are subject to trials because in both cases they're basically quislings - and Misija is explicitly a traitor in the Bozjan Resistance's ranks and is therefore subject to court-martial and summary execution should her court-martial decree it. But executing Yotsuyu - though perhaps deserved - or Gaius would always have just been victor's justice; it has no legal basis, even if it has a moral basis in the former. Wars are not, generally, fought until one side is broken and their leadership tried, imprisoned and executed. Wars are generally fought until one side surrenders and then the leaders are often allowed to retire. Not all enemy regimes are seen as enemies of humanity. People keep applying the norms of real-life fascism to the Garlean empire, and the Garlean empire is not the Nazis, or modern redcap MAGA assholes. They're an older model of imperialist rear end in a top hat who dabble in the sorts of monstrous crimes many empires regularly committed anyways. Hell, Gaius is nicer than most, say, Roman generals because to all appearances he didn't lead massacres, enslave the conquered, take hostages from leaders or sack cities - all but the second being normal practices until comparatively recently. Compare to Rome, which totally did annihilate as much of the population of Carthage as it could and destroy the city so thoroughly it was empty for an extended period of time. Cleretic posted:I do like that scene with the merchant and Fordola, but I'd be pissed if that's all we got and they called that good. Fortunately they're clearly not done with Fordola, and I imagine she won't consider that one exchange a pass either. I'm going to be blunt, Cleretic. You put a lot more emphasis on Meracydia than the game actually does as some sort of unified polity. Furthermore, if we know one thing about dragons, it's that their scope of grievance and grudge is not, by the human standard, reasonable; Heavensward is an entire expansion about this, and it doesn't simply come out and say "the dragons were totally correct." Besides, Emet even says he mostly hands people tools; do the Allagans who individually made decisions to be a conquering brutal empire not have agency and culpability in their own right? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 08:12 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 08:03
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Garlemald was a near-failed republic that gave up its original political structure once Emet/Solus hooked them up with that sweet Magitek. I would argue that Garlemald's expansionism, brutal subjugation of "lesser" races and the fact that Varis outright says they're fighting for a master race tips the scales in favor of Garlemald being fascist.
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May 6, 2021 08:12
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Vanderdeath posted:Garlemald was a near-failed republic that gave up its original political structure once Emet/Solus hooked them up with that sweet Magitek. I would argue that Garlemald's expansionism, brutal subjugation of "lesser" races and the fact that Varis outright says they're fighting for a master race tips the scales in favor of Garlemald being fascist. I mean there's definitely political overlap. But importantly, for example, Garlemald has not been doing the most salient Nazi Thing of large-scale genocide as a primary policy - unless you're going to include cultural genocide, which is something most empires, and indeed most consolidating polities period, have done until relatively recently. There aren't Garlean death camps, as far as we know. So while they've got a lot of overlap with fascism, they don't have the concrete historical legacy of crimes against humanity that made the Nazis uniquely vile or resulted in the war crime and crimes-against-humanity trials. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 08:19 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 08:16
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Don't they have a policy of eradicating beast tribes?
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May 6, 2021 08:44
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SirSamVimes posted:Don't they have a policy of eradicating beast tribes? If there is one other major divergence I would say that while there is Garlean supremacy among the Garlemald guys, their stated ideology was not something like "we are the most awesomeist BECAUSE we do not have magic and indeed magic-users are BAD and we're going to WIPE THEM OUT with our magitek," which would in fact be more classically fascist. Instead they happily fill the ranks with aether-using hominids. Vanderdeath posted:Garlemald was a near-failed republic that gave up its original political structure once Emet/Solus hooked them up with that sweet Magitek. I would argue that Garlemald's expansionism, brutal subjugation of "lesser" races and the fact that Varis outright says they're fighting for a master race tips the scales in favor of Garlemald being fascist. 
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May 6, 2021 08:58
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Jetrauben posted:I mean there's definitely political overlap. But importantly, for example, Garlemald has not been doing the most salient Nazi Thing of large-scale genocide as a primary policy - unless you're going to include cultural genocide, which is something most empires, and indeed most consolidating polities period, have done until relatively recently. You don't exclusively need death camps to be fascist (though I'd argue that the telophoroi towers should count, along with their genocidal handling of the beast tribes). I know it isn't a perfect list to go by by any means, but Garlemald hits nearly every single one of the Fourteen Points of Fascism set by Umberto Eco. Everything about Garlemald is meant to show that it is a continuation of a glorious legacy (Allag), they consider every other society around them (the ones that kept them in check for centuries) to now be lessers. Their first call of action was to go firebomb Dalmasca, Landis and Nabudis and to continue on from there, conquering simply for conquering's sake. They justified their actions by using the Burn as proof that the other races were destructive monsters that needed to be ground under the heel of Garlemald for their own good, etc., etc. Time and time again Garlemald's shown itself to be a proving ground for absolute beasts that thrive off of dictatorial power and a desire to purge Aldenard and rest of the world of its undesirables.
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May 6, 2021 08:59
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Nessus posted:Yeah, this makes sense. I suppose, if we were going to draw a distinction, it would be that they're more like Italian fascists than Garlemald is way too successful for that comparison to work. 
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May 6, 2021 09:15
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Garlemald was having trouble, what a sad sad story Needed a new leader to restore it to its former glory Where oh where was he? Where could that man be? We looked around and then we found an Ascian for you and me And noooow iiiiit's Springtime for Solus and Garlemald 
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May 6, 2021 09:25
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Vanderdeath posted:Garlemald was having trouble, what a sad sad story
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May 6, 2021 10:23
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Jetrauben posted:I'm going to be blunt, Cleretic. You put a lot more emphasis on Meracydia than the game actually does as some sort of unified polity. Furthermore, if we know one thing about dragons, it's that their scope of grievance and grudge is not, by the human standard, reasonable; Heavensward is an entire expansion about this, and it doesn't simply come out and say "the dragons were totally correct." I'm not, basically the only thing we do know about Meracydia is that they were a continent of diverse cultures in the Third Astral Era. At least four notable societies; probably more, given that Sophia's wasn't a single beast tribe but a collection of people from disparate tribes all seeking balance, which implies more than just the ones we saw. So we're probably talking about a population diversity roughly comparable to what we see across all the Far East. At least. And then Allag conquered them. It was a back-and-forth, but Allag eventually prevailed, and judging by Azys Lla and Dalamud, they were NOT kind about it. We don't really know how much Allag was influenced by the Ascians beyond the fact that they were, but I very much doubt that their late stage (the unambiguously brutal one, with the conquering of Meracydia, the creation of Azys Lla and Dalamud, and the failed invasion of Bozja) was entirely without guidance. After all, they had to time the Calamity right, and I can't imagine they got that many potential long-lasting Calamity triggers from late Allag out of chance. So yeah, Ascians probably culpable for the conquest of Meracydia and subsequent Calamity. Now, getting a jury of direct victims would be a little hard for crimes thousands of years before, but thankfully the First Brood was there--which means Tiamat and Hraesvelgr are essentially the only still-living things subject to it. Not exactly a highly representative population, but I wouldn't call their feelings less valid for it. Especially not when we're talking about the actions of an Ascian, probably the only things on the Source that can also hold onto feelings for that long. Even if you think there's a statute of limitations for how long those crimes 'count'? Emet did the exact same thing with Garlemald over the last hundred-ish years in-game, and he can't waffle on that it's 'not really his fault' with that one because we know he was Solus, and we know he molded the Garlean Empire to be the cruellest goddamn stewards. I'd have felt more comfortable if there were, say, an Ala Mhigan or Doman around to hear his 'and that's how I justify genocide' story, I'd probably have been happier. Right now, the Scions don't have representation of people the Garleans have actually oppressed--which is honestly a little disappointing going into an expansion that's going to take the fight to (the ruins of) Garlemald, but that's a separate thing. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 11:05 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 10:52
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The talk about the game never calling Emet-Selch on his garbage seems to hinge more on them not doing it absolutely explicitly within the immediate narrative of Shadowbringers itself. Which in a way is fair, it is a choice that they could have made, but I suspect that they didn't do it because it would disrupt the narrative flow of the stuff on the First... and also all the friggin' rest of the game leading up to that point has been "boy, gently caress Garlemald!" It has already been well-established that Garlemald is very bad, and Allag was also very bad... and Emet-Selch slouching on out and going "yeah I did that, all of that" and us having to deal with what that means is more what the story's looking to explore after that point. I get the impression, thinking back on the ShB MSQ in general, that the Scions are just 100% loving done with Emet, but have no real way to make him leave and are mostly trying to minimize their engagement with his shifty nonsense because they've got stuff to do. A moment spared to have someone say "hey gently caress off, guy who did X bad thing in particular" might have been wedged in there, but at that point it might've simply been redundant because it has long since been well established that Garlemald Is loving Terrible. At this point it is in the process of being burned to the ground and its people being enslaved to create some sort of giant apocalypse tower, so that's... something I'm sincerely looking forward to Endwalker engaging with. What's going to become of these people that Emet-Selch uplifted and then used up? What place in the world will (what's left of) Garlemald and its people have when the ash settles? Yeah yeah yeah, Emet, okay, remember you, great, that's fine... I'm genuinely looking forward to more engagement with the people of the world and what all this stuff means to them because FFXIV at least tries to use its story to make the point that the people of the worlds that we save matter, and that they're the reason that we're fighting.
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May 6, 2021 11:11
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SirSamVimes posted:Don't they have a policy of eradicating beast tribes? Archived 2.0 Promo Page posted:"Beast tribe" is a designation of Garlean origin, given to those races the Empire deems detestable. Equivalent to an earmarking for extermination, the label is attached on account of association with primals—beatific beings who, amid certain circles, command godlike reverence. In stark contrast, the primals are held in highest hatred by the Garleans, who, besides calling them by the derogatory denomination eikon, have sought to suppress with startling single-mindedness any species suspected to summon them. Which is lore so old it's not even on the Lodestone any more, and a lot of the "beast tribe was invented by the Garleans but adopted by the Ul'dahns" stuff has shifted to "beast tribe was invented by the Ul'dahns" tonelately. But it runs in line with stuff that was being discussed as recently as Stormblood: Koji Fox interview, 2018 posted:For all intents and purposes, there are no beast tribes in the Far East, and this all comes down to the definition of “beast tribe.” The term is one of Eorzean/Garlean origin used to describe those dastardly “spoken” (the scientific category of living beings that possess a distinct language) living in Eorzea who feel the need to not play by the rules and run about doing all manner of forbidden nastiness like claiming ancestral land as their own or summoning false deities (eikons/primals). As for in-game sources, right after you fight Bismarck, Varis shows up: A Difference of Opinion, MSQ 57 posted:Varis: It would seem that the famous hero of Eorzea seeks Azys Lla as well. Hardly unexpected. The secrets of the Allagans' power to bind eikons to their will could scarcely fail to interest the Scions of the Seventh Dawn... You know as well as we what will ensue should these insatiable creatures be allowed to roam free─that their very existence threatens the life of this star. We but disagree on the solution to the problem. Alphinaud outright says "genocide has ever been the Empire's favored recourse". Varis' response is essentially "Yeah, so what?" I think that makes a pretty clear case that this is not an isolated incident, and that once they've seen any of your kind summon a primal, they make sure it won't happen again by getting rid of the rest of you. The very anti-Bismarck Zundu are the ones being rounded up for death by Regula's goons, after all. They're pretty indiscriminate about it. Canine Conspiracy fucked around with this message at 12:25 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 12:08
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