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Frankenstyle posted:The new shield from the end of Endgame and TFaWS has been bothering me mildly because if Cap decided to retire to an alternate timeline and spend his life with his best girl, why would he go to the trouble of getting a new shield? Then watching Spider-Man Homecoming tonight there's a scene with Happy reading off the planes cargo manifest and one of the items is "Cap's new prototype shield", so I'm wondering if old Cap didn't just pick that one up from the Avengers compound on the way to the funeral. Steve chose to retire from being the Captain America of the mainline MCU world - the one where he lost Peggy Carter. It's absurd to think that he'd go to the world where he can reconnect with Peggy Carter while she's still active as Agent Carter going on dangerous missions and just take his skills and knowledge of the future and sit on them. Beyond stuff like HYDRA infiltrating SHIELD and rescuing Bucky, consider that Steve Rogers probably read through a bunch of American and world history thinking, "If only I'd been there..." Now that he is there you think he'll do nothing? gently caress that!
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May 6, 2021 22:42
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Obviously he got to the moon somehow...
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May 6, 2021 22:44
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What…what if Old Man Cap is a Skrull and our Cap is lost in time?
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May 6, 2021 23:07
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Everyone posted:Steve chose to retire from being the Captain America of the mainline MCU world - the one where he lost Peggy Carter. It's absurd to think that he'd go to the world where he can reconnect with Peggy Carter while she's still active as Agent Carter going on dangerous missions and just take his skills and knowledge of the future and sit on them. So Steve basically intervened at every major point of US history, if not global history? Pulled Lincoln, Kennedy, Martin Luthor King Jr. etc. out of the way of bullets, forewarned people about Pearl Harbour, got himself and Peggy on fateful flights on 9/11 etc? Marsupial Ape posted:What…what if Old Man Cap is a Skrull and our Cap is lost in time? Why would Skrull Cap disguise himself as an older Steve Rogers and give away the shield?
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May 6, 2021 23:12
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tsob posted:So Steve basically intervened at every major point of US history, if not global history? Pulled Lincoln, Kennedy, Martin Luthor King Jr. etc. out of the way of bullets, forewarned people about Pearl Harbour, got himself and Peggy on fateful flights on 9/11 etc? He'd still only have so many Pym particles.
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May 6, 2021 23:18
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live with fruit posted:He'd still only have so many Pym particles. He doesn't need Pym particles, he just goes through the timeline like everyone else does by living it
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May 6, 2021 23:30
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tsob posted:So Steve basically intervened at every major point of US history, if not global history? Pulled Lincoln, Kennedy, Martin Luthor King Jr. etc. out of the way of bullets, forewarned people about Pearl Harbour, got himself and Peggy on fateful flights on 9/11 etc? Not Lincoln or Pearl Harbor, but Kennedy and MLK Jr. sure. For 9-11 he and Peggy would have been a little old for direct intervention, but they might have made some phone calls. Figure that HUAC, Joe McCarthy and the KKK would have received some serious Captain America push-back as well.
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May 6, 2021 23:37
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Everyone posted:Not Lincoln or Pearl Harbor, but Kennedy and MLK Jr. sure. For 9-11 he and Peggy would have been a little old for direct intervention, but they might have made some phone calls. Figure that HUAC, Joe McCarthy and the KKK would have received some serious Captain America push-back as well. The thing is, if you change such significant events then it's not really far-fetched to think that some other events later in the timeline are so different as to be unpredictable using his knowledge. Or just not happen at all. The more you change, the higher the chances further events get unpredictable.
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May 6, 2021 23:43
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Also changing major events will just flat out erase current people. Think of how many people exist today because of major wars like WWI and II. Not just the direct participants but the aftermath of coloniasm and segregation. If Cap stops WWII India might still be a British colony and Barack Obama might not exist because his parent's marriage is still illegal. The manga, Zaipan, got it right. Don't gently caress with changing anything because almost inevitably everyone you know and love won't exist. Thundercracker fucked around with this message at 23:50 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 23:47
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tsob posted:
4D space chess, my dude.
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May 6, 2021 23:48
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Cap seems like the kinda guy who would never use his knowledge to change the past.
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May 6, 2021 23:49
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Thundercracker posted:Also changing major events will just flat out erase current people. Think of how many people exist today because of major wars like WWI and II. Not just the direct participants but the aftermath of coloniasm and segregation. If Cap stops WWII India might still be a British colony and Barack Obama might not exist because his parent's marriage is still illegal. If WWII never happens, he and Peggy never meet so there's no love of his life to go back to.
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May 6, 2021 23:53
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Bleck posted:the point of Joker is "mental illness is exacerbated by social structures we assume are normal and benevolent." hope this helps I thought the point of Joker was "White Male Gen-X Angst Is Justified and Tyler Durden was right"
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May 7, 2021 00:10
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I feel like if Steve started loving around someone would stop him. Either The Ancient One or Owen Wilson just from those we've seen.
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May 7, 2021 00:21
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Everyone posted:Steve chose to retire from being the Captain America of the mainline MCU world - the one where he lost Peggy Carter. It's absurd to think that he'd go to the world where he can reconnect with Peggy Carter while she's still active as Agent Carter going on dangerous missions and just take his skills and knowledge of the future and sit on them. I feel like Steve probably just knew that everything was gonna turn out all right. Probably figured that if he changed anything that it would lead to Thanos winning in one way or another. That said it would be an rear end in a top hat move to let 9/11 happen if you could stop it.
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May 7, 2021 00:47
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Sanguinia posted:I thought the point of Joker was "White Male Gen-X Angst Is Justified and Tyler Durden was right" I could probably light up the sky with the projection coming from this post lol
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May 7, 2021 00:49
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Everyone posted:Steve chose to retire from being the Captain America of the mainline MCU world - the one where he lost Peggy Carter. It's absurd to think that he'd go to the world where he can reconnect with Peggy Carter while she's still active as Agent Carter going on dangerous missions and just take his skills and knowledge of the future and sit on them. I like you're interpretation because it opens the possibility that the Loki series is actually gonna be about Loki running through the time stream saving Hitler and re-killing JFK and stuff while fixing a series of Cap's colossal time gently caress-ups. *I kid, but in the right hands a time travel show about making sure all awful poo poo that happened still happens so that worse poo poo doesn't happen could a be great thing. Lord Frankenstyle fucked around with this message at 01:17 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 01:14
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Sanguinia posted:I thought the point of Joker was "White Male Gen-X Angst Is Justified and Tyler Durden was right" hahahah wat?
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May 7, 2021 01:22
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Zero One posted:Cap seems like the kinda guy who would never use his knowledge to change the past. Technically he wouldn't be changing the past, he'd be living in his world and changing his future. I mean, say you see a four year old playing on some train tracks at 4:58 PM. And at 5:00 PM a train's going to roll through like it does every day.. Do you act on your knowledge to save the kid or just let him get squashed to avoid "interfering?" For all you know that kid will grow up to be Space Hitler. You can't predict that one way or another. So do you act on your knowledge that the train will squash him or not? Assuming you're not a loving psychopath, you'll save the kid. Figure that's how it'll be for Steve. He knows about these bad things, so he'll act to stop them and live in his world with the consequences of those actions.
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May 7, 2021 01:38
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pik_d posted:I feel like if Steve started loving around someone would stop him. Either The Ancient One or Owen Wilson just from those we've seen. Not even time agent Owen Wilson. The real one. He'll show up with an unbroken nose and be pissed Steve's meddling removed on of his few trademarks
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May 7, 2021 03:26
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bunnyofdoom posted:Not even time agent Owen Wilson. The real one. He'll show up with an unbroken nose and be pissed Steve's meddling removed on of his few trademarks The real Owen Wilson is a time agent, he's playing himself. He was also playing himself in Shanghai Noon, The Grand Budapest Hotel, Starsky & Hutch, and Cars.
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May 7, 2021 03:33
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pik_d posted:The real Owen Wilson is a time agent, he's playing himself. He was also playing himself in Shanghai Noon, The Grand Budapest Hotel, Starsky & Hutch, and Cars. Now I irrationally want Loki to make Zoolander MCU canon
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May 7, 2021 04:06
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Zero One posted:Cap seems like the kinda guy who would never use his knowledge to change the past. I don't think Steve would sit by in a diner while some fat racist sheriff hassled some black person he'd do what he thinks is right. Edit: Sam is now Cap, Steve is Steve I need to get used to that.
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May 7, 2021 04:41
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pik_d posted:The real Owen Wilson is a time agent, he's playing himself. He was also playing himself in Shanghai Noon, The Grand Budapest Hotel, Starsky & Hutch, and Cars. Everyone knows that owen wilson’s greatest role was in the royal tenenbaums. What this post presupposes is maybe it wasn’t? Honestly the best character to go unfuck time after endgame is Loki. It’s like marble umbrella academy but probably funnier and less angsty.
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May 7, 2021 04:41
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So with FAWC it seems they realised oh poo poo the Flagsmashers are entirely sympathetic so had them act logically inconsistent randomly murderous because they had written themselves into a corner?
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May 7, 2021 04:57
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Lid posted:So with FAWC it seems they realised oh poo poo the Flagsmashers are entirely sympathetic so had them act logically inconsistent randomly murderous because they had written themselves into a corner? What is logically inconsistent about increasing radicalization triggered by the loss of a loved one at the perceived hands of people you were already fighting exactly?
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May 7, 2021 05:02
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Lid posted:So with FAWC it seems they realised oh poo poo the Flagsmashers are entirely sympathetic so had them act logically inconsistent randomly murderous because they had written themselves into a corner? "Serum sickness" is tight
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May 7, 2021 05:03
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Sam's ending speech is actually ironic because Disney themselves added unsympathetic violence to delegitimise the flagsmashers otherwise sympathetic leftist ideals
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May 7, 2021 06:04
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BurritoJustice posted:Sam's ending speech is actually ironic because Disney themselves added unsympathetic violence to delegitimise the flagsmashers otherwise sympathetic leftist ideals The thesis of Sam's speech is that the unsympathetic violence explicitly did not delegitimize her leftist ideals.
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May 7, 2021 07:39
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Sanguinia posted:The thesis of Sam's speech is that the unsympathetic violence explicitly did not delegitimize her leftist ideals. Yes but there's a difference between "we should help them because we're better than them" and "we should help them because we're not better than them" and it's not entirely clear what interpretation Sam meant. Which is the show trying to say: that good people should forgive bad people and try to understand them, or that we're all equal and there are no bad people? At least to me, seeing Disney throw a bunch of scenes of explicit violence sure makes it seem like they're trying to remind you that these are the bad guys. You can forgive bad guys, try to understand them, try to help them, try to improve the conditions that gave birth to them, but never forget that they are bad guys and they can never be trusted (and thus can't be in charge and need to be monitored. you know. for their own good.)
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May 7, 2021 08:06
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XboxPants posted:Yes but there's a difference between "we should help them because we're better than them" and "we should help them because we're not better than them" and it's not entirely clear what interpretation Sam meant. Which is the show trying to say, that good people should forgive bad people and try to understand them, or that we're all equal and there are no bad people? At least to me, seeing Disney throw a bunch of scenes of explicit violence sure makes it seem like they're trying to remind you that these are the bad guys. He directly states that people like Karli should be at the table being listened to for global decisions if those decisions are going to effect those people. Plus that denying and hurting these people is what pushes them towards violence for recognition/revolution. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 08:10 on May 7, 2021 |
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May 7, 2021 08:07
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Sanguinia posted:The thesis of Sam's speech is that the unsympathetic violence explicitly did not delegitimize her leftist ideals. and he's right
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May 7, 2021 08:12
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Lord_Magmar posted:He directly states that people like Karli should be at the table being listened to for global decisions if those decisions are going to effect those people. Plus that denying and hurting these people is what pushes them towards violence for recognition/revolution. I mean yeah I'll be straight, you're definitely right, I'm just discussing it cause BurritoJustice's original point was sorta interesting to me. Like they work so hard to both paint Karli as not so bad after all, but then, the action set pieces work at total cross purposes to this characterization. Is it just incompetence from the writers? Did they feel that if they wanted to show that not all "terrorists" are evil, they had to start with one that actually was evil, so that the viewer might be able to learn to empathize even with someone we have totally written off as no more than an enemy combatant? WAS it just super soldier serum sickness, with no greater meaning meant? Or maybe it was super soldier serum, but it was meant to make a parallel to how we all start out as innocent children, like Raggedy Anne here, with real human hearts, but as we force ourselves/are forced into combat, it kills our emotion and deadens our ability to empathize more and more each time? So, even though she was a normal, decent human when we have a chance to stop and talk with her (sometimes)... when she steps into the field, she shuts all that poo poo down and doesn't care anymore who has to die for her cause? A trauma narrative, essentially. Like there's all kinds of possible solutions to the conflict they posted about. I like talking about this kind of stuff, where there are multiple possible answers. Even if there's an obvious "right" one.
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May 7, 2021 08:26
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Its worth noting that right before Sam gives that speech he descends from on high as an Angel with the martyred Karli draped in his arms, liken unto Christ His Own Self. I think its really hard to read any ambiguity into what Sam's words mean given that visual framing, personally.
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May 7, 2021 09:23
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Sanguinia posted:Its worth noting that right before Sam gives that speech he descends from on high as an Angel with the martyred Karli draped in his arms, liken unto Christ His Own Self. I think its really hard to read any ambiguity into what Sam's words mean given that visual framing, personally. Didn’t Jesus go up and not down? I genuinely don't know, I've never bibled.
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May 7, 2021 10:07
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Frankenstyle posted:I like you're interpretation because it opens the possibility that the Loki series is actually gonna be about Loki running through the time stream saving Hitler and re-killing JFK and stuff while fixing a series of Cap's colossal time gently caress-ups. I mean, that would actually be amazing. If it's NOT what Loki is about, someone should make a similar series, because that's just a really cool premise with a lot of opportunity for great stakes. Kind of like Quantum Leap, but purely devils advocate versions.
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May 7, 2021 10:08
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Open Source Idiom posted:Didn’t Jesus go up and not down? Was thinking more along the lines of Renaissance Art than the actual Bible. 
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May 7, 2021 10:15
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Sanguinia posted:Its worth noting that right before Sam gives that speech he descends from on high as an Angel with the martyred Karli draped in his arms, liken unto Christ His Own Self. I think its really hard to read any ambiguity into what Sam's words mean given that visual framing, personally. Oh yeah, it's very clear in that moment what the showrunners intended.
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May 7, 2021 11:32
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One interesting detail from the Assembled episode is at one point, the director says something like "Heroes in the first phases were warriors and soldiers and now they're first responders" regarding Sam and Bucky, then goes on and on later about how Walker is a soldier. It does add some depth to his portrayal, and makes me think about Tony going in and just killing all those Ten Rings members in Iron Man 1 as something Val will probably send Walker to do.
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May 7, 2021 12:09
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The Joker is a really awesome movie with basically perfect politics and has a lot to say about the way we discard and dismiss anyone with mental health issues as trash. Phoenix gives an outstanding performance and if Robert De Niro signs on to play the “villain” (wink) in a movie that is very clearly drawing inspiration and paying homage to two of his own films, one of which is among the top 50 movies ever made according to film critics across the globe... well shouldn’t that be good enough for you?Sanguinia posted:I thought the point of Joker was "White Male Gen-X Angst Is Justified and Tyler Durden was right" Anyone who paints The Joker as Fight Club or White Male Rage is basically whatever the movie version of illiterate is... I think we call it “stupid”? This was the projection put into place by mass media outlets and woke-scold leftists who had never seen the film but DESPERATELY wanted it to incite violent shootings. It was among some of the weirdest behavior I’ve ever seen from media in my entire life. They spent months warning people this would cause violence and masa shootings because... I honestly don’t even know! It was so weird and insane! There is literally no way to actually watch the film and accept what is happening on screen and come away with the take you’ve posted. It’s not perfect, certainly, the reveal about his fake GF was too heavy-handed and we didn’t need to see the actual murder of the Waynes that was maybe more than was needed but ultimately it’s a really good movie that helped a lot of people with serious mental health problems feel seen or represented in media in a way we don’t often get to be seen. If you’ve never had a government official look you dead in the eye and say “there is no help coming, you do not matter, good night and No, I don’t recall saying good luck” than sure maybe the movie won’t speak to you but it sure as hell had a lot to say to me and many others like me. Tarantino has a really electric description of the finale wherein he expressed incredible respect for the director. The way that scene is constructed, the way the film builds this scene so completely, the average audience member is EXCITED for the murder to happen. We know Phoenix is crazy, we know he’s losing it, we know none of his ideas are grounded or helpful, we know that ultimately he is just a sad and abused crackpot with nothing in his life, and we still want him to blow Robert DeNiro’s brains out the back of his skull, because in that scene Jaoqin... is right Just an awesome flick, gonna rewatch Joker before I get trapped in Thor hell
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May 7, 2021 13:06
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