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I definitely fired up a game with infinite money and the quick-build cheat enabled (CTRL+C+H+E, cheats appear in the options menu) just to get a handle on how certain systems work because finding out something is busted after spending multiple in-game years to build it is lame. Also, if you turn off "build with rubles/dollars" you can place the building outlines and they won't start autobuilding while the game is running, but you can still auto-build them either by going through their individual menu or if you're on the test branch using the new "batch auto-build" drag box. Saves you from having to awkwardly pause and play because the bulldozer doesn't immediately work while paused.
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May 7, 2021 17:25
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| # ? May 30, 2024 19:16 |
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Yeah also weighing in on “don’t be afraid to take lessons learned and restart” because technical debt can sometimes be a huge monster to overcome and having a clean slate is always super fun when you have a new idea or approach. Don’t get attached to your first few games. Another tip too is not to try and solve everything in the same 100m x 100m box. Sure, you can get some big efficiencies out of putting many things close together or outright connected, but if it’s going to save you a lot of pain to just have a truck run goods between two factories, just do that. Bus stops are cheap and you don’t need to serve every workplace within the walking range of one stop. If things start to get too packed in and you’re playing horrible jenga, move 50m away and build there instead. And the more you pack in together, the more you end up needing in that area to support it. I might be fine to support a small facility on a single passenger and single cargo train station. If I pack everything in tightly I might suddenly start having train traffic issues and now I’ve got to build more open tracks. Or I might solve this by supplementing with a bus line, but now I’ve got roads choked because there’s so many trucks crawling around the area and I can’t easily make new road bridges so the roads don’t get stopped by the new train lines constantly... etc, etc. You can see how that snowballs quickly and it can all be solved with a little extra space and clear delineations of what each area should do and how it gets its workers and resources.
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May 7, 2021 18:11
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One thing I started to feel is that W&R is in a way an inversion of the usual automation game. Normally you start by hauling big chunks of resources manually, then you automate a direct line, then you get self managing vehicles, then you get teleporting resources. In W&R you go along the opposite way. Start by teleporting enough good to get your construction industry. Then switch to self managed distribution offices, then build that big integrated factory, then let a train ship those big chunks of resources on a manual schedule.
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May 7, 2021 18:41
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It really calls out some of the supply chain handwaving in manufacturing based city builders or automation games. These traditionally have a very gameplay centric ramp of how complex it is to vertically integrate product XYZ. Products used early on take a couple inputs and everything arbitrarily builds on and integrated with everything till you have complex endgame products that are a hodgepodge of everything you make. Vertical integration gets varyingly narrow and wide, simple and complex based on how things are realistically made. A field to food and vodka supply chain is conceptually simple. Grain becomes food and vodka, easy peasy. Now consider building the farm, food, and vodka factory. How many products make a building? A poo poo ton. How do you get them all? Answer changes minute by minute as you vertically integrate the essential but complex construction material industry. What's the ratio of building A to B? I mean you can figure it out but you're not gonna get round numbers by the time OEE meets your transportation network so you are always importing or exporting to keep good OEE. It's the only game I respect to answer the question "how do you build a city/an industry out of frontier land"
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May 7, 2021 19:05
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zedprime posted:It really calls out some of the supply chain handwaving in manufacturing based city builders or automation games. These traditionally have a very gameplay centric ramp of how complex it is to vertically integrate product XYZ. Products used early on take a couple inputs and everything arbitrarily builds on and integrated with everything till you have complex endgame products that are a hodgepodge of everything you make. Seconding all of this. It’s the only game that hits this layer of abstraction within “factory/production” games. Crops is a good example, where other games would probably just give you a “the field generates 20/min” sort of thing, this makes you solve for “the crops all come due in the fall. They need to be stored, but they also need to get to storage in a reasonable time frame.” Oil fields are another good one too. It’s a lot of space, often distant and hard to build, and then you have to handle fires out there, which can be helicopters (now) but that then requires the infrastructure to support those. and also get huge amounts of oil to a refinery that needs to be close enough to workers and then handle the outputs which want to go everywhere again and none of that is just “oh, it’s a 1-2 ratio.” Even if you just pipe it, you have to make room for the pipe and pumps and get them power, make sure they can’t burn down, and it’s expensive. Every system is tied together in a very interesting and realistic way for the layer it wants to simulate.
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May 7, 2021 19:19
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I'm barely scratching the surface but this game is so much cooler than I initially thought it was. It's really not a city builder in the traditional sense but an economy/industry builder. Is it a problem to have too many citizens? One thing I don't have a good grasp on is how many residential buildings I should have, just enough to staff my industry or a surplus? Is there a downside to having too many extra unemployed citizens?
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May 7, 2021 20:03
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Unemployment makes them a bit unhappy IIRC in which case it's a self solving problem if they repeatedly can't get work as they escape. You also need to service them so they might as well have a job. Some amount of unemployment is expected to keep everything staffed at ideal levels because sometimes shifts line up that there's just not a job to do when your ready to work. That's kind of a non answer but as long as they aren't eating you to debt there's not huge problems to have more people than jobs and your main worry should be in analyzing unemployment vs open jobs which can mean people are just having trouble getting there.
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May 7, 2021 20:13
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zedprime posted:Unemployment makes them a bit unhappy IIRC in which case it's a self solving problem if they repeatedly can't get work as they escape. You also need to service them so they might as well have a job. Some amount of unemployment is expected to keep everything staffed at ideal levels because sometimes shifts line up that there's just not a job to do when your ready to work. Lack of housing also reaches a semi stable state, since goons still living with their parents can't get married and have kids, so they'll eventually emigrate too. For your first game, set everything to easy, play around, and try to see how things interact. Expect that you're going to throw it away, so don't bother making anything pretty. Don't bother ever trying to make anything as pretty as ASA makes. It's impossible, I've tried.
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May 7, 2021 21:04
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Volmarias posted:Lack of housing also reaches a semi stable state, since goons still living with their parents can't get married and have kids, so they'll eventually emigrate too. Will they take over their parents house? will they take a passenger bus to a township with open housing?
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May 8, 2021 11:18
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I don't think that people will move house using the transit system, but they will move to nearby houses with free space and you can also both manually and automatically move people into houses (automatic when you build them) and if there are spare people they will fill in the gaps.
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May 8, 2021 11:23
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think that people will move house using the transit system, but they will move to nearby houses with free space and you can also both manually and automatically move people into houses (automatic when you build them) and if there are spare people they will fill in the gaps. Im sure you're right. i tend to run passenger only buses between all my city centres because it looks realistic dammit! and I'd like to think the weird occasional Passenger on them was "im finally movinf out, DAD, cant tell me what to do" but it'd be a weirdly complex system with little benefit. I did have a weirdly highly educated village in my last game that almost convinced me through confirmation bias though . like 3/4 of the shipbuilders had PhDs. but would have had to take the one lonely bus to attend a crowded small college so it didnt make sense.
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May 8, 2021 11:34
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There is a way to force them into student hostels, but I think the student hostels have to be in range of the university they’re visiting and the university *cant* be within walking distance of their home (or maybe any home?) I think if they use student hostels you can actually cart them around and they’ll find homes that way, but I’ve never gotten that to work or even really tried to - that’s just evidence from folks on their discord. (Which, take with a grain of salt. One guy straight up told me I was wrong about pollution in my town because it “only goes 400m” despite observing it otherwise. Everyone’s an expert.) It would be nice if there were more reason to have people do intercity travel that’s not just work. I hate that some towns that might just get to work via bus basically have a useless train station stuck in them that I have to build for aesthetic purposes because it bugs my brain not to have an option to have a passenger train able to stop at every (sizable) town.
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May 8, 2021 15:11
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I think intercity rail would work better if transferring passengers worked better, as it stands I don't think there is a way to intelligently get them off a destination platform and to services that are not immediately next to the platform. If you could just link together a bunch of platforms with bus services or something and they could intelligently go where they need to it would help, but at the moment trains are just large, fast buses that only go where the rails go.
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May 8, 2021 15:29
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OwlFancier posted:I think intercity rail would work better if transferring passengers worked better, as it stands I don't think there is a way to intelligently get them off a destination platform and to services that are not immediately next to the platform. If you could just link together a bunch of platforms with bus services or something and they could intelligently go where they need to it would help, but at the moment trains are just large, fast buses that only go where the rails go. I mean you can do this, you just have to manually tell them to transfer to a bus platform adjacent the train station. In my case though there’s no reason for them to go to another town since their needs will be met in the town they live in. Some small towns I skip a university, but generally every town I have is going to have some kind of culture, a shop, sports and a clinic.
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May 8, 2021 15:36
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Transferring works fine if you treat them very strictly as collectors and deliverers instead of a mesh and you can then use "where should people go" to direct them to the right transfer while workers for example continue on in the train or transfer back inside it. But yeah at that point its like why need a transfer when you can just build the Citizens Great Needs Complex of a shopping center, hospital, and movie theater or multiples thereof right next to the train stop. But that's really all you can do and its the Sophie's choice of cool main streets in every suburban center or giant needs meeting block right next to the station.
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May 8, 2021 15:55
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Anime Store Adventure posted:I mean you can do this, you just have to manually tell them to transfer to a bus platform adjacent the train station. Yeah but that is only really suitable for daisy chaining them to a specific destination, there is no way that I am aware of to do a proper hub and spoke as-needed design with transport infrastructure because fundamentally the agents are not intelligent and cannot comprehend the concept of "the thing i want is in X part of town and I need to get on X line to go there. Every locality needs every amenity and there is fundamentally no point to moving people between cities or even within cities because the only way to make that viable also invalidates it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 15:58
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The phrasing is more you don't need to do hub and spoke because destinations are interchangeable. That also means a maximized solution is to just build every service everywhere but we quickly get to the copout that maximizing this game is wider than it is deep. Collector routes still work and give a birds eye illusion that it might be hub and spokes. If that's not enough to break away from chasing the maximized needs meeting designs, maybe load up a custom map/original map with spotty church coverage and play with a conduct to fulfill maximum faith needs since the only way to manage that with fixed church locations is collector routes.
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May 8, 2021 18:21
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Is there a good video on youtube that gives a good look at the state of the game? The one in the OP is 2 years old, it's probably not very accurate anymore
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May 8, 2021 18:30
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I do sort of a hub and spoke for workers. My first city on this save has four bus loops that go out to each corner of the city, dump workers at the central bus station, which has 100% of workers set to go to a “regional” platform where busses take them out to job sites around that corner of the map, then the local bus makes an extra stop or two near schools/universities and loops back to the start. It works very well, mostly, but for some reason there seem to be some particular problem apartments that just downright don’t like to use the bus and refuse to get enough food/meat. It’s not enough to be more than a few escapes here and there and I’ve tried so many things to fix it I’m just going to leave it, at this point.
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May 8, 2021 18:35
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Nuclear War posted:Will they take over their parents house? will they take a passenger bus to a township with open housing? They don't move via bus routes, but it seems that people will naturally attempt to dribble into any free housing in any place outside of their existing home, even if it has nothing to support them. This means that I generally want to ensure that needs filling buildings are completed before residential buildings. They'll move near immediately into any open housing near them, so you don't even have to do anything when you make a new residential building near an overcrowded area.
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May 9, 2021 01:14
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If I’m working efficiently I usually find that when I start to get escaping 21+ kids, it’s just right about when I need to seed a new city, I just wish I could somehow automate them moving in and finding new spots.
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May 9, 2021 02:52
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You can, there is an option in the "get citizens" toggle that pulls in people from other residences to populate newly constructed buildings as an alternative to buying immigrants.
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May 9, 2021 02:56
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OwlFancier posted:You can, there is an option in the "get citizens" toggle that pulls in people from other residences to populate newly constructed buildings as an alternative to buying immigrants. What Wait for real though? Jesus. Thank you, I didn’t think I would still learn new things.
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May 9, 2021 05:53
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Anime Store Adventure posted:What  I am using the helicopter beta branch so I don't know if it is in the mainline one yet.
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May 9, 2021 06:01
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OwlFancier posted:
Seeing it now I’m not sure how useful it would be to me since I’m very careful about building out and operating everything with bus lines and that before I actually send people, but still wild that I had no idea.
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May 9, 2021 07:02
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OwlFancier posted:You can, there is an option in the "get citizens" toggle that pulls in people from other residences to populate newly constructed buildings as an alternative to buying immigrants. Then again I've only ever used it before I have citizens of my own so idk Should read all the posts before I post
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May 9, 2021 15:07
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It's been there since the beginning, or near-abouts. I tend not to use it because I usually have a specific overpopulated area that I want to pull from, which means I can just pick one of the buildings there and hit the "move 10 random residents" button until it's emptied of people or the destination fills up (usually the latter). Since all the goons living in their parents apartment want to move out as soon as they can the building fills back up in a couple of days.
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May 9, 2021 15:53
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The game finally clicked for me today. I played a couple of sessions trying to get acclimated, but the auto-fill of housing made me think that people were going to be super abstracted and I was starting to get turned off. And then I got my first power plant off the ground. Of course, I had to assign citizens to the bus stop to mine coal and started allocating workers. At that point, the scale started to sink in.
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May 9, 2021 23:28
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This game has gotten me interested in Soviet architecture, found this cool site with lots of interesting pictures and books and thought people here might be interested. https://www.zupagrafika.com/
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May 10, 2021 00:13
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Popete posted:This game has gotten me interested in Soviet architecture, found this cool site with lots of interesting pictures and books and thought people here might be interested. Really cool photography! The United States needs to get on board with Monoliths as part of the infrastructure bill. 
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May 10, 2021 00:17
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It's going to take a long time to get this fed with workers appropriately because it needs another town to really have the numbers for labor, but I am super happy with my steel mill. Next step is to decorate it/pave it a little.
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May 10, 2021 00:58
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 Fields that fit together also rule.
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May 11, 2021 02:58
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For all those favorably commenting on the heli flight dynamics and accurate runway markings, remember this was a heli sim/shooter and you’re essentially playing a map editor with an economy attached to it.
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May 11, 2021 13:53
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If they would like to add warfare back in I would certainly enjoy building elaborate supply lines for tank divisions.
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May 11, 2021 15:47
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Mokotow posted:For all those favorably commenting on the heli flight dynamics and accurate runway markings, remember this was a heli sim/shooter and you’re essentially playing a map editor with an economy attached to it. Man how sick would it be playing like Nuclear Strike on your Republic
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May 11, 2021 17:01
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Mokotow posted:For all those favorably commenting on the heli flight dynamics and accurate runway markings, remember this was a heli sim/shooter and you’re essentially playing a map editor with an economy attached to it. I had no idea what you were referring to here and it was honestly kinda jarring to go look at the Steam page for Air Missions. e: I need this oil-rig model in the game now. 
Generation Internet fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 17:43
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I suppose if it was originally an air game that explains the map size. Salvets coming along nicely, I like the river being there, also really like planting trees everywhere. It is me I am soviet corbusier.
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May 12, 2021 09:04
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Mokotow posted:For all those favorably commenting on the heli flight dynamics and accurate runway markings, remember this was a heli sim/shooter and you’re essentially playing a map editor with an economy attached to it. Legit down to re-merge the gently caress out of these branches.
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May 12, 2021 11:06
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One thing I really wish this game had was tram tracks on streets. I know trolley busses exist, but they're just not the same.
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May 12, 2021 12:52
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There's a mod for that. Tracks without collision boxes.
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May 12, 2021 16:40
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