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That’s just my natural meekness and desire to understand the un-understandable, not white guilt. I’m Colombian American and tend to be pegged just as Latino now that I moved to France which isn’t entirely right but I wouldn’t be okay with being called wholly from the US either. It’s complicated. Either way I 100% sympathize with the situation of minorities and immigrants being one myself so yeah it touched a nerve.
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May 8, 2021 22:05
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there's a ton of racism going on in various parts of europe, but taking an opinion poll where x amounts of people will admit to being suspicious of black people in e.g. germany vs in the US as a sign that one country is more racist than the other is both incredibly reductive and serves no real purpose other than to make one country or the other feel good about itself i am on record itt as being chronically outraged by our murders in the mediterranean, but it's a meaningfully different thing than a society where racialised minorities are in legitimate danger of being killed by their own government in the streets; one is relatively discrete, placed in a certain (horrendous) context of transition between countries where the other is a sort of totalised anxiety and difference imposed on the minority. whether one is more purely racist than the other depends on one's precise definition of racism, and imo isn't especially productive; both clearly have racist influences and motivations, which is a decent starting point for thinking about them and engaging with them. it also feeds into a number of different issues which are related to but also meaningfully separate from simple racism; the role of the law, the attitude towards an underclass (noted in both france and USA, this underclass is heavily racialised, but not exclusively - maghrebi teens and middle-aged ouvriers are both underclass types and are both controlled by violence in france, like black men and appalachians in the US) etc. a reductionist/positivist view of racism as a discrete phenomenon which can be extracted from context and tackled independently can be outright counter-productive, and anti-racists should always be as specific on the practical manifestations of racism and their broader implications as possible as a means of building solidarity and broadening anti-racist impulses. in france, the anti-police-violence protests co-operate, but there's clear friction between the justice pour adama crowd and the gilets jaunes crowd which seem to hamper their activities and their appeal; what should be an obvious moment of togetherness often turns into acrimony and attempts at marking moral territory
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May 9, 2021 12:52
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100YrsofAttitude posted:That’s just my natural meekness and desire to understand the un-understandable, not white guilt. I’m Colombian American and tend to be pegged just as Latino now that I moved to France which isn’t entirely right but I wouldn’t be okay with being called wholly from the US either. It’s complicated. Either way I 100% sympathize with the situation of minorities and immigrants being one myself so yeah it touched a nerve. It's actually pretty understandable. It's their turf and they want respect and submission from you. It was "you pointed and gestured" but could've easily been "why are you looking at me like that" or "your grocery bag hit me" or whatever bullshit excuse to get into someone's face. As an American who speaks French you should be OK, but good luck in any case.
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May 9, 2021 14:45
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It's kind of weird to claim we're killing the people in the Mediterranean because of racism, anyway. We're Europeans, someone can be the same down to genetics and we'll still hate them. United States did not have to join together because they just wouldn't stop killing each other, while that is pretty much the main reason for the European Union. "Racism" is just way too much of a simplification for a continent that was basically tearing each other apart until 1945 and existing in a very uneasy truce until 1990. There is so much more hate for so many more reasons.
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May 9, 2021 15:01
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The entirety of European history until 1945 essentially revolved around a continual aim of killing one's neighbour for talking slightly differently to you, killing them for believing in a slightly different god to you, or just killing them for land, resources, valuables or women you wanted to take from them. And whats all the more impressive is most people from different continents/cultures find it difficult to tell us apart, because we're all so genetically and culturally similar in the grand scheme of humanity. The last 70 years have been a historically very unusual period of gradual acceptance of other cultures, and efforts not to murder other people in large numbers. Its a slow, but moving positively, work in progress.
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May 9, 2021 16:54
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I mean by the standards of history it is moving forward at lightning speed. Even in my lifetime the advances have been massive. That can be said about pretty much anything in the last century, though, because it is unusual in so many ways.
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May 9, 2021 17:20
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Plenty of other regions are doing rather worse even today though. Concentration camps in Xinjiang, genocides in Sub-Saharan Africa, ISIS/Islamist extremism in the Middle-East, Trump being elected in the US....etc. The EU is doing very well comparatively. Sometimes its worth stepping back and appreciating that, I think.
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May 9, 2021 17:26
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Blut posted:Plenty of other regions are doing rather worse even today though. Concentration camps in Xinjiang, genocides in Sub-Saharan Africa, ISIS/Islamist extremism in the Middle-East, Trump being elected in the US....etc. The entire continent is spiraling into authoritarianism and fascism from my perspective and that's before climate change has even really started turning the screws, but sure
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May 9, 2021 17:43
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One thing I like to do on the 4th of May, which is the day Denmark was informed that it was no longer under Nazi-German occupation, is to listen to the Freedom Proclamation and think about what that would've been like based on the stories I've heard from my grandparents as well as many others. It's a sobering thought but does put things into perspective a bit.
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May 9, 2021 17:53
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Blut posted:Plenty of other regions are doing rather worse even today though. Concentration camps in Xinjiang, genocides in Sub-Saharan Africa, ISIS/Islamist extremism in the Middle-East, Trump being elected in the US....etc. lol you have fascist parties winning poo poo more and more all around europe and even if they weren't we have actual concentration camps for climate and war refugees already
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May 9, 2021 20:22
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How can one look at Denmark, Poland, Hungary, France, Greece and be like: Pffff, EU is doing fine!
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May 9, 2021 20:33
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My point wasn't being appreciative of the EU because "the EU is doing fine" but rather "on a global the level the EU is doing comparatively quite well". Its by any metric one of the most progressive, least discriminatory, regions on the planet. I can't think of many places on Earth I'd rather live as a visible racial/sexual minority. The US? The former Soviet states? South America? Africa? The Middle East? Asia? Its pretty solidly worse almost everywhere across the board. Blut fucked around with this message at 23:45 on May 9, 2021 |
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May 9, 2021 23:43
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Blut posted:My point wasn't being appreciative of the EU because "the EU is doing fine" but rather "on a global the level the EU is doing comparatively quite well". Its by any metric one of the most progressive, least discriminatory, regions on the planet. if i was a member of a "visible racial/sexual minority" i would much rather live in large city in the US, then anywhere in the EU. Even if the government doesn't discriminate against you, some of your neighboors will try to gently caress with you and there is very little you can do about it. I have known several and have acquaintances, friends who have the same stories of mysterious flat tires, broken windows, stolen bikes,.... and sometimes it's not even about any sort of differences (real or perceived). It's always the neighboors being assholes and of course no one has the time to deal with police and going to court for small bullshit. While I might be wrong, I have never heard of people in the US purposefully loving with each other in such ways.
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May 10, 2021 13:34
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Pajser posted:if i was a member of a "visible racial/sexual minority" i would much rather live in large city in the US, then anywhere in the EU. Even if the government doesn't discriminate against you, some of your neighboors will try to gently caress with you and there is very little you can do about it. Which country is this?
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May 10, 2021 13:41
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:Which country is this? Slovenia, Austria and Germany. Those are the countries I lived and worked. When I was living in Graz my girlfriend(also slovene) worked as a nurse and one of her neighboors would regularly scream at her from across the hall how she "only came here to be a black widow". We only ever spoke in slovene to each other, when we were there. This was a mild and ridiculous thing, but I have heard of others much worse experiences.
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May 10, 2021 14:00
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Pajser posted:While I might be wrong, I have never heard of people in the US purposefully loving with each other in such ways. That sort of stuff, I have no doubt has happened but I never heard of it back home, however the general hostility you can get for being perceived as a minority can be quite tangible if it's not outright open and hostile. And it can be nothing but looks or snide comments to uncalled for aggression and the like, but it's there. A particularly huge cosmopolitan city like NYC is generally fine, but not everywhere, and don't get me started on otherwise large and mid-sized cities because those have been hosed for a very long time.
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May 10, 2021 17:44
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personalised racist abuse not being a widespread phenomenon in the land of sundown towns does seem a little romantic
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May 10, 2021 23:21
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https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1391851317266722826?s=20 I would bet there are lots of active service members that have similar opinions to this in every country but them coming out to say it publicly seems like a pretty worrying trend
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May 11, 2021 01:46
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Badger of Basra posted:https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1391851317266722826?s=20 THis is what the right wing dreams of happening in France: 
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May 11, 2021 04:31
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Badger of Basra posted:https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1391851317266722826?s=20 Okay so last time it was a small bunch of retired old farts and this time they didn't even put their names on it so it could have been written by literally anyone. Fantastic. EDIT: Published in a neo-nazi paper apparently from what I can surmise on Wikipedia. Yup, seems legit. Surely there is a coup in the making. Stellar journalism guys.  EDIT2: lol https://twitter.com/jordandickerson/status/1391854068247760899?s=20 MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 05:41 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 05:33
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Ugh, one too many teachers at the Catholic high school I work at read that rag "Valeurs Actuelle", I know at least of one student that does too. I'm not sure how much it gets around otherwise, but it's easily found at kiosks.
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May 11, 2021 08:59
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It's the most influential newspaper of the out and proud far right, influential enough that Macron and a few others accepted interviews from them. Their most recent controversy before that one was targeting an anti-racist Black woman by writing a pages-long fiction about an alternative version of her being born before the abolition of slavery, as a "see, modern France isn't so bad, is it?" message. Nobody's expecting a coup but it speaks volumes about how bold their rhetoric as gotten, helped by the mainstream's general hysteria over minorities.
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May 11, 2021 10:55
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YaketySass posted:It's the most influential newspaper of the out and proud far right, influential enough that Macron and a few others accepted interviews from them. Their most recent controversy before that one was targeting an anti-racist Black woman by writing a pages-long fiction about an alternative version of her being born before the abolition of slavery, as a "see, modern France isn't so bad, is it?" message. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 11:25 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 11:19
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It's no biggie, don't worry. Barking dogs rarely bite. We've recently had a secret right wing conspiracy to overthrow the government in the Bundeswehr special forces. They had detailed lists and murder plans for left/moderate politicians and created secret ammunition and explosives depots. Lots of ordnance that went missing on bases is still unaccounted for to this day. Now that's something to worry about. Maybe someone should look into that in the future, I dunno. Anyway, you are doing relatively fine, France.
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May 11, 2021 11:33
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GABA ghoul posted:Anyway, you are doing relatively fine, France.
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May 11, 2021 11:37
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It's not like there are studies out there that mention that around 40% of the French army is voting for the far-right party RN, right?
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May 11, 2021 14:30
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Pajser posted:if i was a member of a "visible racial/sexual minority" i would much rather live in large city in the US, then anywhere in the EU. Even if the government doesn't discriminate against you, some of your neighboors will try to gently caress with you and there is very little you can do about it. As a visible racial minority I'd take any large city in the EU over U.S. because there is a less chance for me to get shot over reaching for my phone alone.
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May 11, 2021 14:38
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Lord Stimperor posted:The idea that Europe is in any way suffering less racism than the US is laughable. In the US, racism is constantly in the media because there's a widespread consensus that it's scandalous. The wall, migrant visas, ICE/police violence were important aspects of the 2020 election. In Europe, it's practically considered normal that certain ethnicities live entirely outside of society. A black person not getting bananas thrown at them is the exception, not the norm. Europeans can't even accept each other. When I was a kid, Eastern and Southern Europeans were just barely acknowledged as civilized people, and 20 years before that were seen as Barbarians. Europe is a hateful place and Europeans would rather sign their own death warrants than do something that benefits marginalized groujps, foreigners, or gasp brown people (and 'brown' may start south of the alps depending on who you're speaking to). You seem to be completely oblivious about both the US and Europe.
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May 11, 2021 14:50
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Skiant posted:It's not like there are studies out there that mention that around 40% of the French army is voting for the far-right party RN, right?
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May 11, 2021 15:47
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Toplowtech posted:I am more concerned by the neo nazi groups in the french army to be honest. yeah he just said 40% of them are neo nazis
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May 11, 2021 15:53
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Badger of Basra posted:yeah he just said 40% of them are neo nazis I mean, I don't know if all people voting RN are neo nazis but there's a pretty high chance that in the case of the army RN voters, that venn diagram is a circle indeed.
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May 11, 2021 17:00
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:THis is what the right wing dreams of happening in France: What, mobs with automatic weapons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YYnnHBfe1g
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May 11, 2021 22:07
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Skiant posted:I mean, I don't know if all people voting RN are neo nazis but there's a pretty high chance that in the case of the army RN voters, that venn diagram is a circle indeed. People who vote for Nazi parties are called Nazis, hope this helps.
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May 11, 2021 22:42
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CSM posted:The idea that Fox News and OANN are dutifully reporting about the horrors of racism in the US is something else. I feel as though there is either a gross misunderstanding or you're trolling
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May 11, 2021 22:56
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Doctor Malaver posted:What, mobs with automatic weapons? The scene is the "Uprising" in Children of Men where the camps of any immigrants rise up against the Nazi adjacent government that is running Britain (In the movie) the uprising is then quashed by 2 F-16s bombing the place as the end scene. The point im making, is the right wing wants to fire up the camps etc because these things will cause a great "cleansing" as like any other fascist organization they have to fake justifications of war.
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May 12, 2021 02:01
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there's a useful distinction to make between people who vote for the nazis' political front and the actual organised nazis themselves. if you've got people voting for the front in your police and armed forces, that's worrying. if you've got serious, organised nazi groups working within and around your police and armed forces, you need to start taking measures immediately because it means that poo poo could go off the rails at any moment
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May 12, 2021 08:44
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By the way, Children of Men is one of my favourite movies, I think that the ghetto part is a brilliant part (the social commentary is subtle yet effective).
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May 12, 2021 09:05
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GABA ghoul posted:It's no biggie, don't worry. Barking dogs rarely bite. We've recently had a secret right wing conspiracy to overthrow the government in the Bundeswehr special forces. They had detailed lists and murder plans for left/moderate politicians and created secret ammunition and explosives depots. Lots of ordnance that went missing on bases is still unaccounted for to this day. Now that's something to worry about. Maybe someone should look into that in the future, I dunno. Anyway, you are doing relatively fine, France. I'm not sure if France should not worry if there's secret far right coups in Germany. Those never turned out well for France.
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May 12, 2021 10:08
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:By the way, Children of Men is one of my favourite movies, I think that the ghetto part is a brilliant part (the social commentary is subtle yet effective). It's absolutely visionary. Also the cinematography is extremely Half-life 2 in places.
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May 12, 2021 10:12
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V. Illych L. posted:there's a useful distinction to make between people who vote for the nazis' political front and the actual organised nazis themselves. if you've got people voting for the front in your police and armed forces, that's worrying. if you've got serious, organised nazi groups working within and around your police and armed forces, you need to start taking measures immediately because it means that poo poo could go off the rails at any moment The older, I get the more I start feeling like an authoritarian bent is just an inherent part of what a police force is. With the scale of it mirroring authoritarian sentiments in the politically vocal population.
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May 12, 2021 10:14
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