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Thanks for all the insight, guys. My contract doesn’t explicitly state anything about wages owed upon leaving, so I think that adds to my worry that I would get dicked around. I have a good relationship with my manager, but I doubt HR in a large company errs on the side that benefits the employee. I was expecting end of fiscal payouts to happen a month earlier than what got scheduled, so the biggest issue is having mentally checked out but then suddenly having to grind another month out. Ugh!
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May 2, 2021 16:24
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Just an FYI- AAM just posted a huge spreadsheet of various peoples' salaries and their demographics. Could be a very useful tool for negotiating along with you own market rate research. It's sort of like an enormous version of the spreadsheet linked in the OP of this thread. https://www.askamanager.org/2021/05/look-at-24000-peoples-real-life-salaries.html
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May 5, 2021 22:18
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Hopefully I get a promotion. I should come equipped with another offer so I actually have a Batna. I’m super curious what their offer would be over my current salary. Is assuming a 10% raise too much for an internal promotion?
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May 6, 2021 01:23
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10-15% is probably about the upper limit on an internal promotion. You should plan to be there 12-18 months before using your enhanced resume to bolt, because even assuming you're properly paid or even well paid now, after an internal promotion you're practically guaranteed to be vastly underpaid for your new role.
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May 6, 2021 01:26
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That’s a great point. I’m debating if I should wait the rest of the year at my place to likely get the internal promotion position. Or start looking externally now. I’ve been at this place for 1.5 years, which seems a bit early to bolt.
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May 6, 2021 01:31
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Ornery and Hornery posted:That’s a great point. I’m debating if I should wait the rest of the year at my place to likely get the internal promotion position. Or start looking externally now. 18 months is fine. 
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May 6, 2021 01:36
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Ornery and Hornery posted:That’s a great point. I’m debating if I should wait the rest of the year at my place to likely get the internal promotion position. Or start looking externally now. 18 months is probably fine to bolt, but if you accept a promotion you should probably stick with the new role for at least a year before you start looking in earnest for an upgrade.
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May 6, 2021 01:42
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Mind going into the reasoning on that?
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May 6, 2021 01:49
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I don't think it's wise to burn a bridge unless you're really certain it's worth it. Accepting a new role, even at the same company, carries some degree of implied understanding that you'll fulfill that role for at least a while, and won't just jump a month later and leave 'em high and dry. Companies will do it to you without hesitation if it benefits them and all that, sure, but your reputation does matter. Someone else offers you 70% more a month after you start your new role? Absolutely, burn that motherfucking bridge to ashes and laugh your way to the bank. Someone else offers you 15% more? Ehhhhh. Please be aware this is, necessarily, super generic advice and there are all kinds of variables to a particular company/department/industry that might pragmatically push you into jumping ASAP without a second thought. tl;dr I'm very much in favor of the mercenary mindset, but the fewer senior people you can make enemies of along the course of your career the better and that should also be factored into your calculations. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 6, 2021 |
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May 6, 2021 01:56
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Makes sense, I appreciate the explanation.
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May 6, 2021 02:02
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Yet another good point Mauve. This area has a relatively small ecosystem for my profession, so there's that consideration for not burning bridges. Need to maintain good standing. I guess the big challenge for me is that I'm trying to buy a home. The real estate in my area is red hot and home prices have gone up about 6% annually for a long while. If I get another nice bump up the pay ladder then I actually have a chance to buy. I don't know, I guess it's only 7 more months. I appreciate this thread. I get a lot of clarity from typing out my thoughts and engaging in conversation.
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May 6, 2021 02:59
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m0therfux0r posted:Just an FYI- The addition of gender and race makes this actually interesting. Business consulting senior manager making 98k is eyebrow raising. I like the nonprofit director making 700k. Thinking that one is a typo (or else, gently caress).
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May 6, 2021 03:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:10-15% is probably about the upper limit on an internal promotion. You should plan to be there 12-18 months before using your enhanced resume to bolt, because even assuming you're properly paid or even well paid now, after an internal promotion you're practically guaranteed to be vastly underpaid for your new role. I feel this is generally true but I've recently moved into Tech in a computer-toucher adjacent role and in order to get the same comp outside of Tech, I'd have to jump several levels to Director/VP elsewhere whereas moving up one level here just puts me further out of normal non-tech comp. I'll probably never leave the industry at this point.
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May 6, 2021 03:47
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Jordan7hm posted:The addition of gender and race makes this actually interesting. Business consulting senior manager making 98k is eyebrow raising. Haha I saw that one too and was like “the gently caress?”
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May 6, 2021 04:42
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Eric the Mauve posted:I don't think it's wise to burn a bridge unless you're really certain it's worth it. Accepting a new role, even at the same company, carries some degree of implied understanding that you'll fulfill that role for at least a while, and won't just jump a month later and leave 'em high and dry. Yeah, I was definitely in a weird position here not long ago. Took an internal move that netted about +12%, was pretty happy with it, was in the role for 5 months or so (had already set up a 2-year goal for the role and everything) and an external recruiter came calling with an offer +30% above the new role. I know for a fact that I had been "a good value" for my old company for a decade+ and decided that I was willing to risk making some people sad for taking the external offer. Everyone was super-professional and congratulatory (except one) so I'm pretty sure that I didn't burn any bridges there. Personally, I feel like there is a big separation between "went looking" and "came calling" but to anyone who isn't me it probably all looks the same, so while I was able to convince myself to sleep well at night, maybe I ended up on some naughty lists regardless 
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May 6, 2021 05:21
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Jordan7hm posted:I like the nonprofit director making 700k. Thinking that one is a typo (or else, gently caress). Yeah on the AAM page comments there are people that have noticed a few like that- I think people are just accidentally putting an extra 0. One of the ones pointed out that made me LOL was a business analyst that said $940,000 with a bonus of $4,000. Also check the currency- it's not all USD.
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May 6, 2021 13:46
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Speaking of non-profits, I have an interview with one next week. Obviously, I'm not expecting early retirement money, but am I in the realm of rational-thought if I do my usual spiel of "if you're paying a fair market wage I have no doubt we'll be able to work something out"? Glassdoor has limited info, but the few reported salaries didn't seem off the mark.
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May 6, 2021 14:26
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My dad was an executive director at a nonprofit and they were always struggling to make payroll so the job was stressful for him, but he got paid ok. Not great, but not too far out of line with the market. Worked remote a few days / week and negotiated an entire year of severance when he left too.
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May 6, 2021 15:12
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Jordan7hm posted:The addition of gender and race makes this actually interesting. Business consulting senior manager making 98k is eyebrow raising. Non-Profit doesn't have to mean low pay for the employees.
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May 6, 2021 17:14
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spwrozek posted:Non-Profit doesn't have to mean low pay for the employees. but it usually does
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May 6, 2021 18:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:but it usually does Oh totally but there is nothing stopping them from paying executives a lot (and everyone one else way less, huh...just like any other private business). I believe there is a special tax over $1M in compensation though.
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May 6, 2021 18:15
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Nonprofits usually pay executives about the same and everyone else way less, compared to for-profit companies. Or more descriptively and accurately than that, the typical experience working for a nonprofit is that you get hired as a Widget Analyst for $75,000 when the local market rate for Widget Analysts is more like $85,000, but then what you quickly end up actually doing is working 60 hour weeks doing the job of a Senior Widget Analyst (usual market rate: $100,000) plus the job of a Sales Support Grinder (usual market rate: $50,000) all for the $75,000, plus you are being incessantly hounded to donate money back to your employer (i.e. take a below-the-books pay cut) and/or donate even more time on weekends or whatever, and if you don't do these things you are branded Not Mission Focused. Don't work at a nonprofit. (Important note, most healthcare conglomerates in the U.S. are "nonprofit" with the biggest airquotes ever but are actually very much for-profit companies and don't go in this category.)
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May 6, 2021 18:24
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m0therfux0r posted:Just an FYI- I've set up a Colab notebook that helps fine tune the filtering on this dataset, since 25000+ records can be a little hard to sort through by hand. Click the link to open, and then File >> Save a Copy in Drive to get your own version you can edit. https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1MBro4Pab3E3KVwzNEvGDKOMSintaF5-G?usp=sharing
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May 6, 2021 23:36
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This is awesome and appreciate all the annotations. I've played with python data libraries a lot in the past but rarely in the wild.
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May 7, 2021 09:16
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Eric the Mauve posted:
lol Ikea is a nonprofit
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May 7, 2021 12:37
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Eric the Mauve posted:18 months is probably fine to bolt, but if you accept a promotion you should probably stick with the new role for at least a year before you start looking in earnest for an upgrade. I sort of disagree with this. You are generally most underpaid right after a promotion, and often - though org dependent - it can be a challenge to actually assume the new role particularly if it involves actual shifts in responsibility because people are getting used to you as the boss / etc. If it's not a shift in responsibility (eg individual contributor 1 to individual contributor 2) then there should really be no bridges burned. Most people understand that it's business in my experience. In fact, I'd say in the consulting world the expectation is you leave right after either bonuses or promotions / raises, which is why many of them stagger the events.
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May 8, 2021 00:26
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shame on an IGA posted:lol Ikea is a nonprofit Does nonprofit actually mean any profit is moved offshore? I don't think we have nonprofits as a distinct category in Denmark except NGOs I guess.
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May 8, 2021 19:12
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BonHair posted:Does nonprofit actually mean any profit is moved offshore? I don't think we have nonprofits as a distinct category in Denmark except NGOs I guess. Based on the top article on Google, it sounds like any profit is shuffled through various methods, store ownership, trademarks, etc to the founding family.
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May 8, 2021 22:09
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I'm willing to bet dutch tax law has an equivalent to UBIT
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May 9, 2021 03:10
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The lady and I are looking into Colorado for our next move. I'm supposed to be in touch with a recruiter to look at opportunities within the system for one of the big hospitals there. Given the nursing shortage in this world, especially emergency nursing I'm wanting to be confident that I can add a few extra dollars to whatever they offer me, especially since I have 10 years of nursing experience, and an additional 3 years of EMT/E.R tech experience and a masters degree in public health. But what's standard procedure for huge, big companies that seem to be dead set on the *you have X amount of experience so you fall on this salary/hourly rate*. Is that them just trying to make it more difficult for people to negotiate?
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May 10, 2021 05:16
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Big corporations tend to (but not always) have pay grades and job codes tied to the pay grades. So the grade may be 100-120K for the job code. If you are at the top they may not have any more room, lower down you can get them to come up some potentially. Always worth asking for more money regardless. The law here in Colorado requires the posting of the pay. It could be the hourly rate, a salary range, etc. So you will be pretty eyes wide open with any job you apply to.
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May 10, 2021 05:27
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Depending on what healthcare system you are talking about, you may be able to negotiate some more as a signing bonus vs a salary if they have to stick to the pay grade range. Covid has hosed everything up though so I'd say you might have some extra leeway on both.
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May 10, 2021 06:07
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It seems like some places do post the salary in it's "band" where the lowest and the highest wage, and a few just do the "salary starts at x amount" Going in knowing what they pay though is super helpful, and makes me wish I would have negotiated better with my current job, as it too had the salary listed. Good to know though
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May 10, 2021 07:08
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Nice and hot piss posted:But what's standard procedure for huge, big companies that seem to be dead set on the *you have X amount of experience so you fall on this salary/hourly rate*. Is that them just trying to make it more difficult for people to negotiate?
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May 10, 2021 13:25
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Hi friends. Second round interview tomorrow. First round, salary came up and they wanted me to say a number. I insisted that they state it first, mentioning that I had trust in them choosing a fair number based on my experience (I don’t but I wanted to come off as agreeable). They gave me a range, between 55-62k. I said that was kind of them without mentioning a number and expressed my interest to continue the process. The lowest number on the range surpassed what I was willing to take by 5k. I’d be really surprised if I somehow negotiated 62k, considering there’s one small qualification I haven’t hit. I’d be pretty happy if I got whittled down to 60k. Assuming it comes up tomorrow, what happens if I get a concrete number from them and it’s short of 60k? How do I keep nudging them up a few thousand? My BANTA is terrible because my current job pays poverty wages and they know I specifically want to work for this new company for a variety of reasons. I was asked if I was looking at other positions elsewhere and told them I was. Can I be called out on my BANTA somehow if I say that I’m in the fictional process of interviewing with Gooncorp as Senior Poster for 65k?
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May 10, 2021 20:05
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Don't make up interviews that you don't actually have.
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May 10, 2021 20:19
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Don’t lie about it. Just say you want the top of the range they gave, based on your qualifications and fit for the role.
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May 10, 2021 20:21
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do not lie in general but you specifically shouldn't lie because you seem extremely nervous and that will make you a bad liar what is good and smart: "I am considering other opportunities, but this position seems like a really great fit for both of us for [some good value add reasons] and I would be happy to sign an offer for $60,000/year with the agreed on benefits package today!" - you are not lying, you give them a quick path to yes and everyone likes getting to yes once they decide they like you what is not good or smart: "I have an offer at GoonCorp for Senior Posting Moron for $60K and I would need you to match it!" - you are loving lying and making poo poo up, and although it's unlikely that it could truly backfire on you it definitely could and you would regret doing it the second doesn't really offer much advantage over the first, either. if you started name dropping competing offers to me i would absolutely think less of you as a candidate versus if you have the competing offer and just negotiate like a normal person.
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May 10, 2021 20:21
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buglord posted:Hi friends. Second round interview tomorrow. First round, salary came up and they wanted me to say a number. I insisted that they state it first, mentioning that I had trust in them choosing a fair number based on my experience (I don’t but I wanted to come off as agreeable). They gave me a range, between 55-62k. I said that was kind of them without mentioning a number and expressed my interest to continue the process. The answer to "Are you looking at other positions" is always yes, because you are always open to the right offer. You don't have to fabricate a complex cover story. Certainly don't lie about other offers. Sometimes managers ask that question so they can tell their director that you said "yes" to try to get their director to expedite the hiring process. I've certainly done that. Also, if the range is $55-$62k depending on a qualification that you lack, and that range is good for the market, and you're happy with $50k, $55k is in the win column. You already "won" to the tune of $5k a year for the rest of your career simply by getting them to name a number first. Go for $60k, of course. But knowing when you've won is important too.
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May 10, 2021 20:24
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Thanks for the help all. Kyoon, you explicitly stated 60k for a reason I’d imagine. Why not start at 62k and let myself get brought down to 60k? Or is valuing directness key here?
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May 10, 2021 20:25
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