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Egg Moron fucked around with this message at 02:07 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 02:05
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apropos to nothing posted:lotta what i feel are mischaracterizations here but whatever, its not really important. more important imo is to stop treating "tendencies" as a thing, the way they are discussed online is and itt is almost totally divorced from the actual political situation as it exists now. SA and SEP (the WSWS people) are both technically trotskyists, but to compare the two organizations as being similar in almost any concrete way is absurd. look at all the different caucuses in dsa, many of them can be lumped together or pitted as against each other ideologically but then support and follow through on the exact same political program. CPN are generously social democrats, some of their leading members work as campaign staffers for democratic politicians, some of whom arent even supported or endorsed by local DSA chapters, bread and roses call themselves marxists though people will argue that theyre trotskyists or social democrats, etc. emerge in NYC talks about communism and from what I know could maybe be seen as what most people would describe as MLs, but all of them together fundamentally agree about the way DSA operates currently within the democratic party, theres no disagreement between them on the issue. I mostly agree with this. It's mostly performative LARPing But also gently caress 90% of anarchists they are stupid babies
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May 11, 2021 02:06
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Yossarian-22 posted:I mostly agree with this. It's mostly performative LARPing agreed but point is it’s not because of their ideas about kronstandt it’s because of how they organize or fail to do so currently and my experiences of where their ideas fail in a tangible way. whole reason I am where I am politically is because the people who showed me how to organize effectively are trotskyists and when I put those ideas into action they worked while I saw those around me using other ideas fail. the reason I became a trotskyist is specifically because of how I witnessed trotskyists winning state power and utilizing it in ways that advanced class struggle, both in ways that I saw no one else doing as effectively anywhere else.
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May 11, 2021 02:15
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Yossarian-22 posted:it's sort of a matter of not letting the state subsume the class and constantly using the state while recognizing that it is the enemy. this is still incoherent if we understand the state as an instrument of class power (and not some sort of self-willed entity with its own agenda). the state isn't your enemy if you've seized class power. rather, it is your weapon. the withering away of the state is a hypothesized eventual consequence of the proletariat holding state power A) everywhere and B) for a long time, but if you want to do class war you're going to do it with a state, because that's literally what a state is. a state is what it looks like when class society is very upset (which it is at all times because the conflict between classes is irreconcilable) apropos to nothing posted:lotta what i feel are mischaracterizations here but whatever, its not really important. more important imo is to stop treating "tendencies" as a thing, the way they are discussed online is and itt is almost totally divorced from the actual political situation as it exists now. SA and SEP (the WSWS people) are both technically trotskyists, but to compare the two organizations as being similar in almost any concrete way is absurd. look at all the different caucuses in dsa, many of them can be lumped together or pitted as against each other ideologically but then support and follow through on the exact same political program. CPN are generously social democrats, some of their leading members work as campaign staffers for democratic politicians, some of whom arent even supported or endorsed by local DSA chapters, bread and roses call themselves marxists though people will argue that theyre trotskyists or social democrats, etc. emerge in NYC talks about communism and from what I know could maybe be seen as what most people would describe as MLs, but all of them together fundamentally agree about the way DSA operates currently within the democratic party, theres no disagreement between them on the issue. SA, SEP, and Bread & Roses, true to their trot roots, are all extremely focused on the question of the ballot line and the goal of running third party for the sake of waving the rally flag and awakening the sleeping giant of the working class by putting forth the correct revolutionary program. the only difference is when; SEP literally told the hunts point strikers that they should leave their union and form a soviet on the spot, while B&R thinks they can do that scene from the simpsons where the russian diplomat presses the button and his little title plate flips over, and then you got left voice trying to recruit by specifically using democratic endorsements as a flashpoint, etc. you yourself have basically characterized the entire gamut of DSA organizing as to whether you like the democrats a lot or a little. so in fact i do think there are clear tendencies, small t, visible between members of the same Tendency even in small-time, local organizing
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May 11, 2021 02:30
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Yossarian-22 posted:i used to identify a lot with leftcom ideology and now i'm pretty agnostic about everything these days and i think strategy should be more adaptive than based on ideology imo agree. this is also how I feel about anarchism, especially as I've read more about the huge strides in material benefits the USSR made for the people living under it. like the EZLN (and to a lesser extent Rojava) is awesome and the ideal but there's no denying that MLs and ML states have done a lot more good for a lot more people even after taking their (in my opinion) enormous fuckups into account another reason I've fallen out of love with more left-libertarian ideologies is that to even attempt to fix the multiple global ecological disasters happening or looming in the near future, a lot of people are gonna have to do things they don't necessarily want to (like give up their cars or eat one pound of beef per year, for instance), and I don't see how uncompromising anarchism or left-communism offers an expeditious solution to that apropos to nothing posted:lotta what i feel are mischaracterizations here but whatever, its not really important. more important imo is to stop treating "tendencies" as a thing, the way they are discussed online is and itt is almost totally divorced from the actual political situation as it exists now also I agree with this Ardennes posted:Posadism is a branch of Trorskyism that simply hopes aliens will do the heavy lifting to make the whole thing work. I wish Special Circumstances would get their asses in gear already indigi fucked around with this message at 02:36 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 02:31
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sep literally campaigned in Bessemer and other places to vote no on the union. can’t even begin to go into all the other bonkers positions they hold. lumping the sep in with even left voice let alone Sa or one of the dsa caucuses like bnr is totally divorced from actual politics and again shows how useless it is to debate “tendency” in the abstract compared to tendency in the concrete as in what organization do you represent and what is their political program.
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May 11, 2021 02:45
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https://twitter.com/JennieTetreault/status/1391891838861156353
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May 11, 2021 02:48
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sep campaigned to vote no on the union, while Sa campaigned to vote yes on it, both clearly mistaken and wrong positions and their mistakes can be traced back to the rot of Trotskyism which began during a fateful 15 minute speech at the 1905 party congress of the rsdlp...
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May 11, 2021 02:48
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quote:She/her. Jewish lesbian, just doing attorney things. Recreationally mean to stupid people. AZ LD26 PC. #BLM #StillWithHer Lmfao without fail
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May 11, 2021 02:49
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this is still incoherent if we understand the state as an instrument of class power (and not some sort of self-willed entity with its own agenda). the state isn't your enemy if you've seized class power. rather, it is your weapon it's both imo. the problem that some trotskyists make is they reduce the degeneration of the ussr to individuals rather than to the nature of the state post-civil war. i think assuming that the state is "socialist" as soon as workers run it is sort of like assuming that workplaces are "socialist" as soon as they become cooperatives, i.e. it's a necessary goal for workers to seize both the means of production and the state but it's also important to abolish the relations of production, and that becomes harder the longer the state/capital is able to exist even if it's ostensibly under working class control, because without constant pushing it can potentially just end up recreating the old relationships of production under new management among a clique of the workers, party, etc. of course how do you abolish the market and the commodity relationship if you exist in a capitalist world order in which some countries are constantly going to undermine you at every turn? either you push the revolution abroad which requires the state to assist revolutions around the world, or you become more conservative/inward looking and reconcile yourself with the way of the world somewhat. so either way you're going to have to utilize a lot of state power despite the protests of anarchists
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May 11, 2021 02:50
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apropos to nothing posted:sep literally campaigned in Bessemer and other places to vote no on the union. can’t even begin to go into all the other bonkers positions they hold. lumping the sep in with even left voice let alone Sa or one of the dsa caucuses like bnr is totally divorced from actual politics and again shows how useless it is to debate “tendency” in the abstract compared to tendency in the concrete as in what organization do you represent and what is their political program. apropos to nothing posted:sep campaigned to vote no on the union, while Sa campaigned to vote yes on it, both clearly mistaken and wrong positions and their mistakes can be traced back to the rot of Trotskyism which began during a fateful 15 minute speech at the 1905 party congress of the rsdlp... the point of commonality between SEP and SA (and between both and your more straightforward ultras or whatever) is a preoccupation with revolutionary misleadership such that judicious institutional endorsements and the possibility of judas goating workers into the sway of evil organizations are of deadly importance. the SEP just goes one god further Yossarian-22 posted:this is still incoherent if we understand the state as an instrument of class power (and not some sort of self-willed entity with its own agenda). the state isn't your enemy if you've seized class power. rather, it is your weapon althusser once said that there is no such thing as a socialist mode of production, because socialism is a time of struggle in which capitalism is displaced and suppressed. whether workers run the state is actually the decisive question; workers' ability to then transform the relations of production within that state are dependent on circumstance. either way, whatever they do is something they'll necessarily do through/as a state, because, again, a state is how class war is conducted; insofar as force is being used to prevent the bourgeoisie (former bourgeoisie from within your own society or foreign bourgeoisie encircling you) from dominating your society, there is a state, even if you prefer to call it a federated communitarian whatever now, it may be true that the state is an inherently dangerous and corruptive thing which causes hierarchy and inequality to spread like mold, administrators to ossify into shot-calling bureaucrats, etc and therefore workers' struggles are doomed until and unless they consist of spontaneous global insurrections. however, that's not a marxist position, because marxists see the state as an automatic emergent property of class conflict and not, like, the cursed blade frostmourne which we may or may not choose to draw from its pedestal
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May 11, 2021 03:09
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Article on Kerela’s healthcare https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/cuban-inspired-health-system-among-reasons-kerala-voters-re-elected-left-government/
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May 11, 2021 03:39
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GalacticAcid posted:Article on Kerela’s healthcare https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/cuban-inspired-health-system-among-reasons-kerala-voters-re-elected-left-government/ Kerala did a really good job of lockdown, one of the first things they did was provide everyone with refillable rations. Shame the rest of the country is controlled by hindu fascists.
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May 11, 2021 04:42
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Ardennes posted:I would say it was absolutely the latter. It was never a fair fight, and the US clearly was guiding the situation to fit its own ideological version of how the world needed to be. The more I think about it, the more I think you're right because the counter example - what if a socialist state liberalized but unleashing capitalism and markets got you nothing because you were still barred from capital investment - exists, and its the USSR, where geopolitical rivalry still kept it completely shut out and liberalization brought it nothing but ruin.
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May 11, 2021 04:49
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Kerala did a really good job of lockdown, one of the first things they did was provide everyone with refillable rations. Shame the rest of the country is controlled by hindu fascists. progressives control most of the states in south india because there is a lot of separatist nationalism among minority groups who are way more prominent than hindis there, and generally can't stand modi/bjp as a result. modi's base afaik is in gujarat. communists also ruled west bengal for a long time but now anti-communist centrists are in control the chief minister of tamil nadu, the state my gf's family is from, is literally a guy named mk stalin who was named after the mustachioed fellow we all know and love he's one of the few in india who gives a gently caress about kashmiris too https://mobile.twitter.com/mkstalin/status/1158352492855353344 Yossarian-22 fucked around with this message at 05:13 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 05:09
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Stalin was right
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May 11, 2021 05:14
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mila kunis posted:The more I think about it, the more I think you're right because the counter example - what if a socialist state liberalized but unleashing capitalism and markets got you nothing because you were still barred from capital investment - exists, and its the USSR, where geopolitical rivalry still kept it completely shut out and liberalization brought it nothing but ruin. this is a really great point of comparison. liberalization isn't actually good or effective in and of itself, but it can make an effective disguise and feeding appendage in an otherwise hostile environment
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May 11, 2021 05:46
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Ferrinus posted:althusser once said that there is no such thing as a socialist mode of production, because socialism is a time of struggle in which capitalism is displaced and suppressed. that sounds dumb. if capitalism is displaced it seems like there'd necessarily be a new mode of production
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May 11, 2021 06:13
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indigi posted:that sounds dumb. if capitalism is displaced it seems like there'd necessarily be a new mode of production this is just a guess, but this might be following the distinction where socialism becomes communism after the working class has succeeded in abolishing class distinctions and the state
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May 11, 2021 06:46
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good poo poo, another long convo where the only person discussing it without any coherent take or even basic understanding of the concept is ferrinus. stop posting here already you loving dimwit.
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May 11, 2021 06:50
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indigi posted:that sounds dumb. if capitalism is displaced it seems like there'd necessarily be a new mode of production socialism is a socioeconomic system and not necessarily a mode of production. however this is what people call 'splitting hairs' and 'being a moron'. anyway its a stupid rear end quote that gets floated to make people sound smarter. why is why ferrinus paraphrased it.
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May 11, 2021 06:52
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more like althustler
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May 11, 2021 07:01
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indigi posted:that sounds dumb. if capitalism is displaced it seems like there'd necessarily be a new mode of production the key is that it's a struggle during which capitalism is displaced and suppressed, by whatever means. the upshot is that the ussr didn't suddenly stop being socialist when they switched from war communism to the NEP and then start being socialist again when they crushed the NEPmen and collectivized the farms - they were forging a zigzag path towards communism and both loosening and tightening the chains on the markets could be steps toward this end. as ardennes likes to point out what actually kills you is getting frozen out and starved by the rest of the planet rather than the specific administrative model you apply to grain production Larry Parrish posted:good poo poo, another long convo where the only person discussing it without any coherent take or even basic understanding of the concept is ferrinus. stop posting here already you loving dimwit. one day you will gather up the courage to actually describe a mistake i've made Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 08:59 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 08:57
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Ardennes posted:Basically, you have to have your foot always on the accelerator no matter what. what is a global revolution but a neverending struggle session with the world itself?
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May 11, 2021 09:02
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all that said the boutique definition of socialism i like is just "production determined by use-value". the thing is, when you're ensconced in a global market controlled by hostile powers, profit-oriented production has a use-value all its own, since it can get capitalist powers to fuel you rather than suffocate you
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May 11, 2021 09:03
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communism is when everyone has to admit that cum town is funny
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May 11, 2021 09:15
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Scionix posted:communism is when everyone has to admit that cum town is funny then truly the struggle is doomed
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May 11, 2021 13:45
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Yossarian-22 posted:progressives control most of the states in south india because there is a lot of separatist nationalism among minority groups who are way more prominent than hindis there, and generally can't stand modi/bjp as a result. modi's base afaik is in gujarat. communists also ruled west bengal for a long time but now anti-communist centrists are in control Most of modi's base is in the northern india belt. The INC is a great example of why politican's rich failkids and neolibs should be purged from the party. Most of the eastern states have had separatist movements that have been clamped down on pretty hard. I completely forgot about this until I watched an old bollywood movie last year and realized that it was just propaganda against the assamese liberation movement although it still has some pretty kick rear end music. Punjab was so close to having a communist revolution/insurgency but the leaders were killed in a police encounter. AnimeIsTrash fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 14:06
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Speaking of India the CPI (Maoist)'s course on MLM is great. http://massalijn.nl/theory/marxism-leninism-maoism-basic-course/
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May 11, 2021 14:09
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Ferrinus posted:althusser once said that there is no such thing as a socialist mode of production, because socialism is a time of struggle in which capitalism is displaced and suppressed. Here, for example, Ferrinus posted:the key is that it's a struggle during which capitalism is displaced and suppressed, by whatever means. Is it the struggle thing? As in, socialism is post-class consciousness and therefore the transition and constant state of flux is a result of struggle and this is somehow different?
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May 11, 2021 14:19
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He's doing his normal lib bullshit where he kind of parrots half of a concept but says it in 14 paragraphs so your eyes glaze over and people get tricked into thinking he said something worth engaging with, it's all just mystic bullshit
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May 11, 2021 14:44
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quote:one day you will gather up the courage to actually describe a mistake i've made
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May 11, 2021 14:58
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lol
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May 11, 2021 15:01
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DirtyRobot posted:I don't understand why this makes it different from, say, capitalism as a mode of production that is actually a transitory state between a previous mode and a future one. here's the speech if you're curious: http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/ODP77.html you can search for "there is no socialist" to see where althusser makes the point. i kind of see the guy as 70 percent good 30 percent bad, incidentally, he words or explains some stuff really well but has the classic western marxist "...but then stalin ruined it all, that brute, that oaf" tic which he is fairly decent but not completely reliable at suppressing he makes a distinction between capitalism, socialism, and communism. you raise a good point but i think the transition from feudalism to capitalism is actually not quite homologous to the transition from capitalism to communism, because feudalism and capitalism are both class societies and it's just a matter of one class getting the edge over the other, but communism is a classless society and can't be said to exist while competing classes do. so, socialism, or marx's lower phase of communism, isn't just a matter of there being 90% capitalism/10% communism, 80% capitalism/20% communism.... etc. in other words, socialism might not prefigure communism this is to say that the ussr in 1922 or china today were no less communist projects for the measures they'd taken to adapt to their situations at the time Larry Parrish posted:He's doing his normal lib bullshit where he kind of parrots half of a concept but says it in 14 paragraphs so your eyes glaze over and people get tricked into thinking he said something worth engaging with, it's all just mystic bullshit it's going to be really funny when you do this weird paranoiac learned helplessness in response to my posting that the working day is divided into necessary and surplus labor time or something
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May 11, 2021 16:43
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Larry Parrish posted:He's doing his normal lib bullshit where he kind of parrots half of a concept but says it in 14 paragraphs so your eyes glaze over and people get tricked into thinking he said something worth engaging with, it's all just mystic bullshit yeah, i'm trying to follow because it's stupid to ignore people who failed before you but i can't stand how much of this is talked about like it's warhams: a jargon with a theoretical description of the struggles of little men, as described by some double-wide nerd not exactly fair; neither is what's actually happening Brain Candy fucked around with this message at 17:10 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 17:08
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good idea can we turn this into the warhammer 40k lore discussion thread
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May 11, 2021 17:17
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it’s the mod feedback thread somehow so why not
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May 11, 2021 17:22
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https://old.reddit.com/r/Sigmarxism/
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May 11, 2021 17:30
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