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Splicer posted:There's a possibility of a combo of A and B. There exists a timeline T1 where Annie died. Kat sent the birds back in time, creating a new timeline. We are in Tx, a semi-stable, kind of "fuzzy" time loop which is less a ray and more a cloud of approximately similar events that always result in a non evil Kat + norns sending a bird back to save Annie with the details being insufficiently meaningful to warrant distinct timelines. There could be just T1 or Tx or there could be a (finite) number of T2s, 3s etc in between. Then who did Kat1 save? The only timeline where Annie is dead is T0. T1 has a living Annie0 that was saved by Kat0. Kat1 can't go to T0 to rescue an Annie because that would violate the causality that lead to the original branch creating a paradox. In order to have a valid destination for the birds, a new timeline Tx + 1 has to be created each time. This isn't even touching on the idea of bringing together multiple birds by shifting them out of their own timelines. It occurs to me I might not have explained A well enough. It's by definition mutually exclusive to branching because each instance of "meddling" is essentially reloading a save game after running it through a save editor. In writing: t=0: Annie falls off the bridge and dies t=1: Kat vows to save Annie t=2: Kat creates the first bird and saves Annie t=3: Annie lands at the bottom of the canyon safely t=n: Kat reveals to Annie that she created the bird From the perspective of the timeline, Annie both dies and survives in that order. We see time going back because of how we conceptualize time. For the timeline though, "time" kept moving forward. Strawberry Pyramid posted:This is all very interesting and confusing, thankfully Tom just told us there's only ever one of us, so thus there's only been one Annie ever, "Forest" Annie and "Court" Annie were just illusions of our stupid brains, so we don't have to worry about this stuff! Funny enough, yeah, my thesis for Scenario A is "Don't worry about it, you can't know either way. Believe whatever keeps you sane."
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May 12, 2021 23:52
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Warmachine posted:good stuff you're assuming that Kat Prime (aka the machine goddess who lost her annie) got her annie back. her timeline continued untouched. we obviously can't know for sure without seeing her perspective, but i would assume she caused a pretty big mess and brute forced her way to time manipulation. the first meeting with the norns is fundamentally different than every other meeting, because it is the first in an infinite loop. it's a pretty big paradox, which is why 'norns cleaning up' is probably completely accurate. e: kat asked exactly this question and was told "no sorry". 
Niavmai fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 23:53
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Niavmai posted:you're assuming that Kat Prime (aka the machine goddess who lost her annie) got her annie back. her timeline continued untouched. we obviously can't know for sure without seeing her perspective, but i would assume she caused a pretty big mess and brute forced her way to time manipulation. the first meeting with the norns is fundamentally different than every other meeting, because it is the first in an infinite loop. it's a pretty big paradox, which is why 'norns cleaning up' is probably completely accurate. Actually, my assumption is that Kat Prime/Kat0/Adult.Kat never gets her Annie back, and made the bird Kat Prime intentionally destroying the prime timeline in order to preserve the subsequent timeline would give a bit of credence to the Norns telling Kat she's "saving herself" too. Killing an entire reality ain't no joke. edit: Yeah, the Norns declining to explain is the reason I have to spill words on a dead gay comedy forum to try and puzzle out the mechanics. Wait. Does that mean I'm Kat? 
Warmachine fucked around with this message at 23:59 on May 12, 2021 |
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May 12, 2021 23:57
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what the hell are you people talking about
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May 13, 2021 00:04
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Regy Rusty posted:what the hell are you people talking about Time travel is complicated ok?
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May 13, 2021 00:20
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Regy Rusty posted:what the hell are you people talking about Basically what it amounts to is there being two Annies is just a metaphor for her dad only being one person.
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May 13, 2021 00:32
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There's also the classic time loop scenario. Since the existence of time travel means effects don't need to follow causes, it's possible that there is no "alpha" timeline at all. Kat's mum's friend's work colleagues having time powers could mean the order of events is, and always has been, that the Tic Toc just emerges out of nowhere space ex nihilo, saves Annie and vanishes into nothing (and then does all the other stuff they do, controlled by Kat at various points in her life). Kat later creates the robot bird, goes to the norns and sends them back through time, the cause of the previously observed effects finally having completed the equation. I don't think this is the case, though unless alternate universe, days of future past, dark future Kat arrives as the next bad guy in a time ship, it's indistinguishable from whatever the actual explanation is. Regy Rusty posted:what the hell are you people talking about Homestuck finished ages ago and I haven't gotten to post incoherently about weird time poo poo for ages.
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May 13, 2021 00:50
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Annie I'm glad you're taking this so well but your dad has social anxiety to the point of dissociation he needs drugs and therapy
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May 13, 2021 00:54
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Rohan Kishibe posted:Homestuck finished ages ago and I haven't gotten to post incoherently about weird time poo poo for ages. I actually almost said this thread is starting to look like the ol Homestuck thread, but I didn't wanna be too insulting.
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May 13, 2021 01:06
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homestuck = frogs g court = birds
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May 13, 2021 01:38
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Quick, what's Annie's title and aspect?
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May 13, 2021 01:43
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tbh homestuck's alpha/beta simultaneous closed time-loop AND back to the future style timeline fadeouts might be a solid way of thinking of this
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May 13, 2021 02:07
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BRB going to fire up BLADEKINDEYEWEAR posting power
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May 13, 2021 05:58
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tudabee posted:Annie I'm glad you're taking this so well but your dad has social anxiety to the point of dissociation he needs drugs and therapy Hahaha. This chapter has definitely been making me think of Kat/Annie interactions, and how much Kat has helped Annie come out of her shell. This is one of my fav pages in the comic: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=620 That's all. I've had a few beers and this sequence always makes me 
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May 13, 2021 06:30
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I just kind of feel like this comic has been desperately trying to get me to like Annie's dad and I simply don't. Like yes, there's characters in-comic going "he's a complicated person" or "he's a bad person" or whatever on the surface, but there's also been multiple chapters now focusing on his inner pain and characterization in a way other characters haven't gotten in a long time, so I can't help but feel as if we're (supposed to be) being endeared to him. The amount of weight put on this character, narratively, as well as how often we're shown his inner thoughts and feelings, indicates importance and an attempt to get the audience to empathize. I can't help but wonder sometimes if these scenes were added or edited specifically because of the overwhelmingly negative reaction to Tony, when clearly Tom likes the character and thinks he's very complex and fascinating, has based him on his personal experiences with his own father, and has expressed some bitterness over people's reactions in the past. Like it sort of feels like Hideo Kojima saying "when you see Quiet's backstory you will totally regret your words and deeds!". But now we've seen Tony's backstory, his inner self, and... I still don't like the guy nor find him interesting. The proverbial condition that requires Tony to wear clothes that let him breathe through his skin has not made the fishnets and bikini more tolerable. Like, hell, this chapter was supposed to be about Annie and one of the most interesting developments in the comic in a long time, and it's looking as if it's going to resolve while barely touching on any of that. Okay, something something two Annies within one is a metaphor for how Annie's dad is hosed up and acts like two different people because of his social anxiety, but it's just not really hitting for me, because sure he's two people metaphorically but we haven't at all addressed how she was two people literally and now that's just? Not a thing? None of it has felt narratively satisfying. I am someone who deals with mental illness (incl. anxiety) as well as the trauma of a lovely father, so I don't want people to assume I'm coming from an uneducated dickhead place on this. It bugs me a lot that Annie is smiling sadly and wisely as she says "yeah I'll probably never see that side of him again and that's fine", which feels very much like a "and now it's not going to be discussed further, this is the end of my character arc on this matter, we've spent enough time on it". Especially as a teenager, your pain over a lovely emotionally absent father doesn't resolve that easily or cleanly, because logically knowing something is a lot different from successfully internalizing it. I'll be the first person to eat my hat if it cuts to her inner fire spirit being pissed as hell at the end of the chapter or whatever, I guess. I don't want to sound like a hater! I'd love to love this comic again. But one of the first comments on this page is "god I'm so bored of tony" and I feel that.
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May 13, 2021 06:49
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I think Annie's totally-serene smile and "nothing complicated here, I'm magically fine now" attitude in this chapter aren't meant to be taken at face value. The comic introduced Tony in a way that showed him at his absolute worst, and then it moved on to go "of course, it's more complicated than that". But I don't think it's pitching "secretly he's a great guy so don't worry about it". It's been showing us things through the lens of a daughter who really wants to like him whether he deserves it or not, and that's a hard perspective to see things from so it's kinda working overtime (maybe a little too much) to show us that perspective. But, there's going to be a "of course, it's more complicated than that" for Annie, too. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 06:59 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 06:57
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:
This bugs me a lot too. Like, there's a big feeling of grossness that surrounds this entire chapter. Especially since it feels like we're getting further from Annie as the main character, or at least that instead of focusing on her and her feelings w/r/t this major event that's just happened to her it's been "We're worried about her dad" followed by her dad explaining himself to Jones, and then "Hey, I bet everyone wants to talk about my dad, let's talk about my dad." I feel like I remember how well the chapter (Microsat-5, I think?) where we see Annie sitting in a chair after her father called her and she's trying to remain calm, but she can't even drink a glass of water properly and is digging grooves into her palms with her nails. That was such a great part of the comic. Ditocoaf posted:I think Annie's totally-serene smile and "nothing complicated here, I'm magically fine now" attitude in this chapter aren't meant to be taken at face value. That's a very optimistic view given how these sorts of things have been in the past in this comic.
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May 13, 2021 07:11
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Regy Rusty posted:what the hell are you people talking about Imagine four Annies at the edge of a cliff
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May 13, 2021 07:12
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Yeah, so far this chapter still feels kind of unsatisfying, and like the comic is trying too hard to tell us that Tony isn't actually that bad, for real. Like, we basically already got this explanation back in the chapter where he explained everything to Donny, this is just retreading the same "I really care but can't show it, I swear" ground. I dunno, at the end I still think, like, boy Tony sure needs therapy. Explanations are not the same as excuses.
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May 13, 2021 07:15
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anthony carver is a miserably uninteresting little man and the comic has spent years trying to convince its readers otherwise
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May 13, 2021 07:19
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Potsticker posted:That's a very optimistic view given how these sorts of things have been in the past in this comic.
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May 13, 2021 07:27
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Ditocoaf posted:This comic with a pattern of characters straightforwardly and honestly expressing their emotional state? Yeah. Generally the we're actively being told something is up when people are not being honest. Zimmie sees Kat's head pidgeon, Annie's internal monologue concerning the call with her father, Coyote showing us Ysengrin when he's alone. Kat seeing the department of spooks for what it really is. Parley's feelings towards Smitty. The dishonesty is upfront and center to the audience.
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May 13, 2021 07:34
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a theme of a lot of bildung narratives is "the adults in my life are neither good nor evil incarnate and are instead all flawed and finite individuals, with their own commitments, priorities, and foibles" + "I am my parent's child and the heir of my upbringing; I claim my birthright, both the sweet and the bitter, and grow beyond it" these pages have Antimony laying out how she sees herself in her father and her mother. it's the protagonist reflecting on herself using others as a foil. why yes, Jones finds that she goes around asking about Annie and everyone instead wants to talk about her dad, why do you ask it doesn't seem at all intended to be subtle to me, but I feel like a reader who is really taken by ch51 could instead be expecting a burst of catharsis out of misery lit instead and then be disappointed when it doesn't occur re: timelines, I'm still hoping for Antimony to be split again - it felt like a really innovative step to explore a character and a way to have a visual medium have introspective dialogue without clumsy thought boxes. Close siblings are a common and relatable kind of, uh, relationship, even if it's not necessarily twin sisters... more relatable than wordlessly emoting in the ether, anyway, or having dissociative episodes so extreme that they feel like really distinct versions of yourself. Plus, that merger did really feel unfair to characters who had developed some separate identity to the narrative
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May 13, 2021 07:55
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I like tony
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May 13, 2021 08:25
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Irukandji Syndrome posted:I just kind of feel like this comic has been desperately trying to get me to like Annie's dad and I simply don't. Like yes, there's characters in-comic going "he's a complicated person" or "he's a bad person" or whatever on the surface, but there's also been multiple chapters now focusing on his inner pain and characterization in a way other characters haven't gotten in a long time, so I can't help but feel as if we're (supposed to be) being endeared to him. The amount of weight put on this character, narratively, as well as how often we're shown his inner thoughts and feelings, indicates importance and an attempt to get the audience to empathize. I'm here. I can understand him, the character makes sense, the motivations, etc. It's all laid out clearly, but the fact is it has been all already established, including everyone's opinions of him that we just heard all over again, and I feel like... I mean, Gunnerkrigg was always a talky comic, but a lot of it was expressed previously through the art? But it's swung really, really hard into tell, not show. We don't show flashback panels of all the characters dealing with Tony, we get quick text soundbites re-hashing their already known opinions. The entire bird resolution with the norns was sci-fi babble central telling us the plot. Big deals like Annie merging happen off-screen when, you know, that's probably worth showing, not just saying 'That happened, here's the aftermath.' I know the sequence with Jones taking several pages just to show off her ancientness was controversial for many, but I felt that was a really great example of flexing the art to carry the story. Now I feel like we're getting story beats and resolutions through monologue. Also the narrative's feeling gross in the way it's constantly positioning this relationship as needing Annie/the audience understanding why he does what he does to accept him, and not him changing his behaviours to even try and earn that acceptance over the course of time. I'm very much in the 'cool motive, still abuse' where it feels really icky that the framing of this whole thing has been all about him and his psychological state and how hard his struggles are, and how everyone doesn't understand him properly and just judges him by his surface behaviour (which is abusive) but if they knew his ~mind cage struggles~ they'd understand better. I don't know if that's the intention, but that's how it reads to me. So I'm probably just going to stop reading for a long while because I've disliked the comic's approach to Tony for a long while and it's leaving me genuinely discomfited at this point.
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May 13, 2021 09:29
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I dunno, most of the complaints about how Tony is depicted, to me, come off as people just wanting the Bad Man to be condemned so that they can remain comfortable in the idea that abuse is the result of choosing to be sinful and mean, in intentional defiance the will of god, or something.
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:27 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 10:25
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Hodgepodge posted:I dunno, most of the complaints about how Tony is depicted, to me, come off as people just wanting the Bad Man to be condemned so that they can remain comfortable in the idea that abuse is the result of choosing to be sinful and mean, in intentional defiance the will of god, or something. good to know the people who don't like Tony are morally deficient 
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May 13, 2021 10:38
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drkeiscool posted:good to know the people who don't like Tony are morally deficient Yeah, they're basically scum because they contribute in a minute and accidental manner to the stigmatization of mental health issues. This inadvertantly increases, and in fact contributes to, abuse. This means that they are Bad People, or more accurately, unpeople. I have no sympathy. How could I? They don't have feelings.
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May 13, 2021 10:42
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Tony can be a dick and have also mental health issues, those two things can be and in fact are true.
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May 13, 2021 11:11
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Idra, meanwhile, is the only one to point to the fact that boarding schools were largely invented to that the upper class could have as little interaction with their children as possible, while also ensuring that they would be abused to the standards of the aristocracy. Abusing your own kids is work, and boarding schools allow you to hire people for that.
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May 13, 2021 11:23
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He's responsible for his actions (neglecting then outright emotionally abusing Annie to the point she has an on-screen dissociative episode and engages in metaphysical self-harm) and for his lack of action later (Being aware of what he's done and making no on-screen, serious efforts at redemption). "Expecting parents with mental health issues to take responsibility for their harmful actions is stigmatizing" is a wild take.
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May 13, 2021 11:24
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Tony has serious mental health issues. Abandoning his daughter was not caused by his anxiety issues. That was bog standard grief and hubris. It would probably have been better if he stayed away, but he only came back because he was forced to. One he realised he was going to be an even worse father than he thought he should have worked with his good friend Donnie to take himself out of the equation as much as possible. Points 2 and 4 are not excused by points 1 and 3. If it had just been point 2 that would be still terrible but forgivable, but he continues to woe is me rather than try his best within his limitations. If he'd applied as much effort towards communicating with his daughter as he did resurrecting his dead wife or building robots he would 100% have found something to do other than talk to her face to face. We now know Tony as a considerably more sympathetic and tragic character than when he was first revealed, bit he's still being a terrible dad in ways not directly excusable by his very real* brain problems. *shut up you know what I mean Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:34 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 11:24
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coolusername posted:He's responsible for his actions (neglecting then outright emotionally abusing Annie to the point she has an on-screen dissociative episode and engages in metaphysical self-harm) and for his lack of action later (Being aware of what he's done and making no on-screen, serious efforts at redemption). "Expecting parents with mental health issues to take responsibility for their harmful actions is stigmatizing" is a wild take. We're dealing with a context in which the extent of mental health outreach appears to be sending someone who literally cannot feel emotions and only knows of them through secondhand description to initiate Tony's first therapy session, and even that only occurred because Donny suggested that Jones talk with him. I'd say this is a deviation from the real world, but I'd actually say it's pretty close to most people's experiences.
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May 13, 2021 11:45
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Hodgepodge posted:I dunno, most of the complaints about how Tony is depicted, to me, come off as people just wanting the Bad Man to be condemned so that they can remain comfortable in the idea that abuse is the result of choosing to be sinful and mean, in intentional defiance the will of god, or something. no one ever said he should be condemned forever, just that he should have to make actual changes and put forth a real effort instead of the narrative putting the entire onus on his daughter. this feels like she's just going "haha well i forgive all the abuse and neglect now1!" with him not having put in the slightest effort. this may be a good thing for a real life annie to be able to move on herself, but is EXTREMELY unsatisfying as a reader. not to mention is typically pretty unhealthy in the long-term for a person to do while still maintaining contact with the abuser in question. to deflect tony's issues as "he has social anxiety, therefore can't be held responsible for any of his actions" is pretty disrespectful.
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May 13, 2021 15:14
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Hodgepodge posted:I dunno, most of the complaints about how Tony is depicted, to me, come off as people just wanting the Bad Man to be condemned so that they can remain comfortable in the idea that abuse is the result of choosing to be sinful and mean, in intentional defiance the will of god, or something. Mental illness is not an excuse for abusive actions. Tony's actions are abusive, despite the comic appearing to excuse them now. Tony is not inherently a bad man, but his actions have caused deep harm to his child. He made a choice to abandon her, emotionally and physically. That action is bad. He has not been shown doing anything to resolve his mental health issues other than want really hard not to have it. Not here in the court, and not for the many years he was working as a surgeon in the outside world. They may not have therapists in the court other than a rock, but they certainly did when Antimony was growing up, and the problem was already evident. Tony chose not to take action. Do I think he would become father of the year if he had gone a different route? No, not at all. He certainly could have done a hell of a lot better. I don't think Tony is a bad person. I do think he is making choices that have harmed Annie and that his mental illness does not excuse that. I want to see him take responsibility for that and for making changes that go beyond "look at how sad I am".
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May 13, 2021 15:36
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Ditocoaf posted:I think Annie's totally-serene smile and "nothing complicated here, I'm magically fine now" attitude in this chapter aren't meant to be taken at face value. that's just my two cents The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 15:44
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Part of living with mental illness is learning to share your internal struggles with the people you care about, so they can support you and know what to expect from you. We have not seen any visible sign Tony is doing this so why NuAnnie just telling us "Oh he's definitely doing the best he can. And he's being a likable person with friends, just off camera" sounds like her making excuses
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May 13, 2021 15:49
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Niavmai posted:no one ever said he should be condemned forever, just that he should have to make actual changes and put forth a real effort instead of the narrative putting the entire onus on his daughter. this feels like she's just going "haha well i forgive all the abuse and neglect now1!" with him not having put in the slightest effort. this may be a good thing for a real life annie to be able to move on herself, but is EXTREMELY unsatisfying as a reader. not to mention is typically pretty unhealthy in the long-term for a person to do while still maintaining contact with the abuser in question. to deflect tony's issues as "he has social anxiety, therefore can't be held responsible for any of his actions" is pretty disrespectful. If we're mapping Tony's description of his behaviour to an actual condition, he very clearly has a depersonalization disorder, not "social anxiety." That's a pretty big distinction. I'm not sure that he's done nothing. He was making efforts to include Annie in his work and says that until he met the other Annie and experienced interacting with her without symptoms, he thought he was making progress. It would have been nice if he got some assistance, but that's what we're seeing right now, and given how halfassed it is (and only happening because the Court wants to control Annie) it doesnt seem like much is available. We'd like to see him apologize and perhaps reconcile with Annie... but we also don't want that to just happen magically. Even though that's what asking for it to happen without a lot of groundwork is. Maintaining contact with the abuser might be a bad thing... except that the abuse is emotional neglect and removing himself from her life entirely does not, in fact, remove the abuse. I'd actually call the impulse to suggest that she should be separated from him, taking into account that she does not want this, to be abusive in itself.
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May 13, 2021 16:10
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Xand_Man posted:Part of living with mental illness is learning to share your internal struggles with the people you care about, so they can support you and know what to expect from you. We have not seen any visible sign Tony is doing this so why NuAnnie just telling us "Oh he's definitely doing the best he can. And he's being a likable person with friends, just off camera" sounds like her making excuses i dunno it seems to be cyclical to me. tony probably finds it pretty hard to reach out to people he assumes see him as some sort of monster or at least malevolent influence and this chapter shows he wouldn't be wrong that that's how they see him. annie doesn't have to forgive him at all but if she ends up wanting to, to assert that she doesn't see him that way and that he can trust her with his inner struggles, is that wrong?
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May 13, 2021 16:43
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Hodgepodge posted:Maintaining contact with the abuser might be a bad thing... except that the abuse is emotional neglect and removing himself from her life entirely does not, in fact, remove the abuse. I'd actually call the impulse to suggest that she should be separated from him, taking into account that she does not want this, to be abusive in itself. yeah but he made her take her makeup off!!!
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May 13, 2021 17:13
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