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I'm not sure where the line should be drawn, but I think visiting cool people in Tel Aviv falls within the boundary of reasonable. US tax dollars fund the CIA, US military and everything the government has ever done, and that is also a colony that genocided its native population; would you condemn anyone who lives or has ever visited there? E: Woof, that is not a good snipe. Just to be clear, I am not trying to draw any kind of direct comparison; just that you shouldn't condemn anyone solely based off where they live. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 20:56 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 20:53
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm not sure where the line should be drawn, but I think visiting cool people in Tel Aviv falls within the boundary of reasonable. US tax dollars fund the CIA, US military and everything the government has ever done, and that is also a colony that genocided its native population; would you condemn anyone who lives or has ever visited there? Yeah I think its like the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" issue. Your tax money is already doing the heavy lifting, visiting his friends really doesn't add much to that.
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May 14, 2021 20:55
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I read this in the New Yorker today: "“The latest escalation started at Nablus Gate weeks ago,” the journalist Danny Rubinstein told me. “Here at the gate,” he said, “after Ramadan, many hundreds traditionally sit and eat.” But the gate is also where many Haredi Jews enter the Old City to get to the Western Wall. “So, the police, reporting to Bibi sycophant Amir Ohana”—the Minister of Public Security—“tried to clear them off the steps. That was the match. The fuel is that Arabs are forty per cent of the city and have no rights.” "Things got seriously worse for Netanyahu with the approach of Jerusalem Day, which happened to coincide with Lapid’s getting the mandate; Lapid and Naftali Bennett, the leader of the rightist Yamina Party, were advancing toward a rotation agreement in which Bennett might serve as premier first. “Lapid and Bennett were supposed to present a government this week,” the former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who was the mayor of Jerusalem from 1993 to 2003, told me. “But now we don’t know what will happen—if the right now says that we can’t form a coalition with an Arab party. Or how does the Islamist party leader join anything while we are attacking Hamas?” The leader of the Islamist Ra’am Party, Mansour Abbas, subsequently committed to returning to coalition talks “after the fire subsides.” But Olmert is right that the tensions work for Netanyahu—and that he helped foment them. (By Thursday evening, Bennett was reportedly back in talks with the Prime Minister, and had said that a government with Lapid is “off the table.”) “In Sheikh Jarrah and Nablus Gate, the inciter Ben-Gvir, whom Bibi brought into the mainstream, was showing up,” he said. “With these anxieties, you march thousands through Nablus Gate on Jerusalem Day?” At the last minute, on Monday, Netanyahu changed the route of the march. But, “by then, we had both capitulation and rockets firing. You lost twice.” Perhaps Netanyahu didn’t want war, Olmert said. “But he wanted passions to rise just to a boil.” They have." https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/hamas-and-netanyahu-are-gambling-dangerously-in-jerusalem
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May 14, 2021 21:06
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VideoGameVet posted:Is there a timeline of the events leading to this latest disaster? I think asking for a "timeline of the events leading up to X" is always kinda tough in Israel/Palestine matters because there's kinda always a slow burn of poo poo happening that just doesn't really get attention because a certain level of violence is just seen as normal these days. It never really stops, and there's usually a ramp-up before whatever event the big flare-up is blamed on. Even before Israeli forces stormed Al-Aqsa (which isn't all that unusual, it happens a few times a year), Israeli police have been attacking protesters regularly for a good month, and there were a number of isolated attacks and shootings on both sides. Hell, with all the focus on the death counts in Gaza and Israel over the past few days, most coverage has neglected the fact that the West Bank is also building up its own body count. Just today, nine Palestinian protesters have been killed in the West Bank by Israeli forces (and a tenth killed after supposedly attempting to stab an Israeli soldier), but it's barely a footnote. Look at how easily a handful of deaths slide under the radar because it's just the normal, everyday levels of violence and repression. If you want to put aside the constant normalized violence and focus on the direct causes of the current flare-up, I'd say it comes down to two things - the impending mass eviction of Palestinians in East Jerusalem, and political infighting on both sides of the conflict. On the Israeli side, we've talked about Netanyahu's tricky situation and the awkward, ideologically-divided opposition which is very split on the Palestine issue. On the Palestinian side, the first PA elections in 15 years were supposed to be held this month, but Abbas indefinitely "postponed" them yet again a couple weeks ago due to political discord in his own party making it unlikely that they'd win, and now is a very good time for Hamas to contrast their forceful response to Israeli overreach with Fatah's impotent collaborationism.
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May 14, 2021 21:46
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Insanity. Humans can be so goddamn awful
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May 14, 2021 22:54
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the dude is absolutely nailing the "calm hitler" tone and demeanor
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May 14, 2021 23:00
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punishedkissinger posted:the dude is absolutely nailing the "calm hitler" tone and demeanor From 2014 I think: https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1392528032749998082?s=20 Hm... the only solution, you say?
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May 14, 2021 23:14
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A small faction of Israelis seem to be determined to kick the wasp's nest over and over by doing dumb poo poo, with implicit government support, and then these half-wits ask "uh uh, why do they hate us, maybe we should bomb them?" Like, respecting Palestinian territory and not attempting to settle on it isn't a sufficient solution to the wider conflict and tensions (Palestinians must also be allowed self-determination and, of course, all human rights), but it is necessary. So, why not just start with that and see if, I dunno, the rockets stop? Then work on the other stuff!
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May 14, 2021 23:22
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PT6A posted:A small faction of Israelis seem to be determined to kick the wasp's nest over and over by doing dumb poo poo, with implicit government support, and then these half-wits ask "uh uh, why do they hate us, maybe we should bomb them?" I was arguing with a self described "left-wing" Israeli about this and he basically just blamed the Palestinians for not accepting Oslo because that proved they couldnt be trusted. This is despite his insistence that both sides were at fault. Weird how both sides are somehow at fault for an illegal occupation one side is maintaining.
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May 14, 2021 23:33
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Before this latest conflict I'd never seen video of apartment blocks getting leveled by missiles. The firepower being used is nuts https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-57114168
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May 14, 2021 23:47
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:A client saw my last name and congratulated me on Israel "getting rid o the Arabs". *uncomfortable silence* Mr. War Crime was my father, please call me Gigolo. We're estranged.
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May 14, 2021 23:49
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119 killed, including 27 minors, and 600 wounded
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May 14, 2021 23:53
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:119 killed, including 27 minors, and 600 wounded
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May 14, 2021 23:56
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punishedkissinger posted:I was arguing with a self described "left-wing" Israeli about this and he basically just blamed the Palestinians for not accepting Oslo because that proved they couldnt be trusted. This is despite his insistence that both sides were at fault. The other obvious thing is: I don't give a poo poo what the Palestinians do, when you're an occupying and vastly more powerful force, you do not get to simply do whatever the gently caress you want with no consequences or criticism. Let's say you're an MMA fighter, and you decide to pick on some old guy who's using a cane, and maybe a bit frail, and then you start to threaten him and extort him, you don't get to bitch when he decides to fight dirty and hit you in the nuts with the cane.
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May 14, 2021 23:59
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AlternateNu posted:Something I’ve been wondering from a historical perspective since the violence has flared up again. How comparable is Hamas to the IRA/Shin Fein? I know very little of the history of the occupation outside the immediate lead up to the creation of the Israeli state post-WWI.
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May 15, 2021 00:18
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AlternateNu posted:Something I’ve been wondering from a historical perspective since the violence has flared up again. How comparable is Hamas to the IRA/Shin Fein? I know very little of the history of the occupation outside the immediate lead up to the creation of the Israeli state post-WWI. As an Irish person, they are not especially comparable. They are both nationalist paramilitary forces employing asymmetric warfare techniques against an overwhelming state military, and Irish nationalists thus have an affinity for the Palestinian cause, but there's nothing much more linking them that I can see. Of course, the handbook for guerilla warfare was pretty much written by Tom Barry, a guerilla combatant in the Irish war of independence and inspiration to Che Guevara and others
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May 15, 2021 00:30
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https://twitter.com/LilySimpson1312/status/1393392424450363393?s=20
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May 15, 2021 03:38
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Count Roland posted:Before this latest conflict I'd never seen video of apartment blocks getting leveled by missiles. The firepower being used is nuts Why don't we see the missiles hitting the building from its sides? Why does it seem like something at the foot of the building, or inside it, was detonated instead?
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May 15, 2021 03:51
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droll posted:Why don't we see the missiles hitting the building from its sides? Why does it seem like something at the foot of the building, or inside it, was detonated instead? Precision guided munitions or bunker busters maybe? A lot of bombs/missiles aren't designed to just detonate immediately when they hit something.
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May 15, 2021 04:05
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droll posted:Why don't we see the missiles hitting the building from its sides? Why does it seem like something at the foot of the building, or inside it, was detonated instead? At timestamp 33s you can see two projectiles hit the left of the building at ground level. They appear as small white streaks coming down at a steep angle. You can hear the zip of them moving through the air. They're moving very fast. edit: I didn't see any on the other side, but I hear three zip-thuds. One produced an enormous fireball. Either it was a different warhead or it hit something explosive. Count Roland fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 04:06
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punishedkissinger posted:the dude is absolutely nailing the "calm hitler" tone and demeanor https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393224042073640960?s=20 https://twitter.com/EmpireFiles/status/1393071022065131524
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May 15, 2021 06:24
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So besides gathering that all Israelis are bloodthirsty war mongers I haven't seen many statements from Hamas. Have they released any official statements lately?
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May 15, 2021 06:41
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droll posted:Why don't we see the missiles hitting the building from its sides? Why does it seem like something at the foot of the building, or inside it, was detonated instead? You can literally see the weapons in flight in that video, why do you do this tinfoil poo poo? They hit the base of the building because that is where they're aiming.
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May 15, 2021 08:12
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Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. I've paid some attention to how liberal germans and the media have been framing this current massacre and I've never seen more cynical manufacturing of consent in my life. Read only typical German papers and you'll come off convinced that Hamas started the whole conflict and there is no possible reason to oppose the occupation except rabid irrational hatred of Jews.
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May 15, 2021 11:06
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Both hague conventions and the geneva convention. On paper it's very clear cut and the duties of an occupier are too essentially look after all the needs of the occupied peoples' as they would their own citizens. In practice, there has been little to no effective international enforcement of these provisions.
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May 15, 2021 11:54
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Rushputin posted:Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. It depends what you mean by Occupited Territories. 67' and Gaza are widely acknowledged by everyone as occupied territories, but some people use the same phrase to also mean the 1948 Israeli borders which is a more disputed claim, and definitely isn't recognised by other countries and the UN who consider those to be Israel's legitimate borders. For the West Bank and Gaza (67'), Israel is 100% in breach of international law because: a) as previously mentioned you're supposed to take care of the native population which Israel definitely isn't doing in Gaza or the West Bank b) international law prohibits moving your own population to these territories which Israel is doing with the settlers c) Israel regularly violates human rights in the west bank and gaza with random raids on civilian houses, the execution of Palestinians and then covering it up so the soldiers rarely face a trial and basically never (el'or azaria not withstanding) convincted of murder/manslaughter, indefinite detention without trial, and just general harassment of Palestinians because the IDF is made up of bored, racist teenagers. Miftan fucked around with this message at 12:01 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 11:57
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Rushputin posted:Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. A) is kinda right in that there’s a general feeling in the west that ‘this is palestines fault’. No mainstream western news source is saying this is an active ongoing genocide, which it is. And if you assume the average person forms their opinions through such sources then the outcome is grim.
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May 15, 2021 12:15
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Rushputin posted:Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. I'm of the mind that it is not occupation but colonialism. http://imgur.com/gallery/Tv0cv Go with "yeah you're right, calling it occupation is really dumb it is much much much worse". DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:18 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 13:04
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One of the core definitions of occupation in legal terms (as opposed to colonialism or conquest) is that in theory it is supposed to be extremely temporary. Once it isn't temporary, yeah it's basically some combination of colonialism or just naked conquest or worse.
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May 15, 2021 13:07
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OK, so the guy's argument is that Geneva 48 speaks of "contracting parties" and that the territories involved in the conflict in 67 did not belong to a contracting party. Now I know that reasoning is insane, but I'm wondering if he's echoing some actual legal opinions or if he just pulled that entire thing out his rear end. Bonus: He linked to archived 1907 documents including various salutations to European monarchs. I half expected to not even find the word "Vertragsparteien" in the modern German text of the Geneva Conventions. Regarde Aduck posted:A) is kinda right in that there’s a general feeling in the west that ‘this is palestines fault’. No mainstream western news source is saying this is an active ongoing genocide, which it is. And if you assume the average person forms their opinions through such sources then the outcome is grim. Oh believe me, I know. The only German news outlet I've seen that doesn't frame this as unprovoked Hamas aggression is a Marxist paper that the government is busy placing under surveillance.
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May 15, 2021 13:12
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once someone starts going off on how "palestine never existed" you can write them off as a racist and disregard anything else they have to say tbh
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May 15, 2021 13:15
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punishedkissinger posted:once someone starts going off on how "palestine never existed" you can write them off as a racist and disregard anything else they have to say tbh The general twitter thread (literally titled something like "debunking anti-zionist talking points") makes some weird statements about how there didn't use to be Palestinians, just Arabs and Jews living in the area. No, I'm not sure what that's even supposed to tell me. I'd love to just write off everyone arguing this poo poo but that's the kind of people who are actively framing the discourse around here. We barely even do the "both sides should get along" bullshit, the centrist, widely accepted line is that Israel is being attacked by terrorists and that's all there is to say about it.
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May 15, 2021 13:25
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The local news here is at least pretty good about this. Nice graph here about the disparity of force between the forces. Also talking about Hamas and not just undefined "Palestinians". Also specifing the casualties are in Gaza. https://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000007976649.html DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:37 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 13:30
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It’s like saying there’s no such thing as Uzbeks or Uighurs because they all just referred to themselves as Turks a hundred years ago.
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May 15, 2021 13:30
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Rushputin posted:The general twitter thread (literally titled something like "debunking anti-zionist talking points") makes some weird statements about how there didn't use to be Palestinians, just Arabs and Jews living in the area. No, I'm not sure what that's even supposed to tell me. Yeah its a weird argument. If "Palestinians" as a people didn't exist before, they sure do now. Nations are built on people with a shared history and experience and, spoiler, these experiences are often bad poo poo that happens to the group as a whole. Palestinians have had a unique experience compared to other arabic speakers for generations and are distinct even from people across the border in Jordan. Also, just writing people off as racist and not engaging with them doesn't help anything, unless this is twitter or somewhere where there's no expectation of a real conversation taking place.
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May 15, 2021 13:55
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Can someone help me dig up a source? I remain convinced I was shown a printed interview with an Israeli leader saying that the displacement and slow cleansing of native Americans was a succesful model for how to carry out the occupation, since a low news rate and incident rate would fail to rile up the international community enough to stop the process. This was a good many years ago, though, and I can't find it myself in the archives.
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May 15, 2021 13:59
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Count Roland posted:
I mean it does unless you don't get your jollies from engaging with racists. In this country at the least, rabid Israel defending paints you as a religious loon at best. While I always support mocking over not engaging, the second step of exclusion from polite society is achieved by both.
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May 15, 2021 14:06
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DarkCrawler posted:I mean it does unless you don't get your jollies from engaging with racists. In this country at the least, rabid Israel defending paints you as a religious loon at best. While I always support mocking over not engaging, the second step of exclusion from polite society is achieved by both. I'm just not a fan of partitioning society into people who agree with me and people who don't, but that's off topic so lets drop it. The IDF just took out a 12 storey office building that housed Al Jazeera and AP. quote:GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday, the latest step by the military to silence reporting from the territory amid its battle with the militant group Hamas. https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-gaza-middle-east-israel-palestinian-conflict-7974cc0c03897b8b21e5fc2f8c7d8a79
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May 15, 2021 14:13
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Count Roland posted:I'm just not a fan of partitioning society into people who agree with me and people who don't, but that's off topic so lets drop it. Me neither.
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May 15, 2021 14:33
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Count Roland posted:I'm just not a fan of partitioning society into people who agree with me and people who don't, but that's off topic so lets drop it. Whenever they feel like slaughtering Palestinians they bomb media and journalist outlets to try and make it harder for stories to come out of Gaza of what they’re doing
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May 15, 2021 14:44
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