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Their PR line is: if Hamas was in the same building, why didn't these news outlets report on it??? We can't be sure they're not putting pressure on these journalists! Like, you absolute fuckers, you just bombed their facilities and you're concerned Hamas might have been being mean to them? No offense, but does the Israeli government and its defenders simply live in an entire alternate universe?
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May 15, 2021 14:47
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Well they’re not even trying an explanation that’s at least that half assed. They’re saying Hamas had created a secret stash underneath the building somehow
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May 15, 2021 14:54
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A coda on German views on the matter: I just got my first spite-block on Twitter after pointing out that a guy glibly responding "action and reaction" to a link to press buildings being flattened probably shouldn't have an #antifa tag in his profile.
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May 15, 2021 15:08
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Watching dw news and you can just see how shook the journalists are. Wonder how many are going to remain in Gaza.
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May 15, 2021 15:16
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Israel barely bothers with justifying destroying civilian infrastructure anymore. They just say "Hamas" three times and they're morally in the clear.
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May 15, 2021 15:17
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punishedkissinger posted:Israel barely bothers with justifying destroying civilian infrastructure anymore. They just say "Hamas" three times and they're morally in the clear. Pretty much. Who's going to prove them wrong? The journalists whose building they just destroyed?
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May 15, 2021 15:35
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PT6A posted:Their PR line is: if Hamas was in the same building, why didn't these news outlets report on it??? We can't be sure they're not putting pressure on these journalists! Holy poo poo that's really the line they're going with? Anyway here's the strike, https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1393542133890617344?s=19
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May 15, 2021 15:39
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^^^ Yes, noted threat-knower David Frum is going in on that line. I mean, it's basically at the level of "Hamas was in the building making rockets, and I saw the rocket, and the rocket looked at me" Ralph Wiggum-level credibility, and a lot of people are going "hmmm, yes, good point, clearly you had no point to level the whole loving building."
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May 15, 2021 15:40
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i love those action movies where the bank robbers use the tellers as human shields and then the good guys show up and just level the entire block
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May 15, 2021 15:43
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I know Matty's not the most popular guy around here, but I thought this was a good point. It isn't just that the world stopped caring about the Palestinians, though they did, but that the world kind of gave up caring about populations being oppressed and/or slaughtered in a bunch of places. Everyone has their own problems they're worried about these days, and after a decade of watching people getting massacred just across the border in Syria this doesn't stand out in the way it used to, especially with an ongoing genocide in China that everyone's afraid to even mention too much because it might disrupt trade relations (and with people in a bunch of countries turning inward even before a pandemic that probably exacerbated the trend). The liberal international order was always hypocritical and even monstrous at times in the calamities it could unleash, but I think the collapse of that order is contributing to collective indifference to things like the plight of the Palestinians, especially when they can be dismissed as old news. https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1393181370017533955 I think he's more or less right about this too. Like obviously if the US became actively hostile to Israel's policies that could have some consequences at the UN, but I don't think the world would be ready to turn Israel into a pariah state even without American support. Some Arab countries might be more comfortable expressing more belligerence, but realistically Israel doesn't have a whole lot to fear from any of them, and I think the normalization process has progressed far enough that it wouldn't just disappear overnight with the American midwives gone. https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1393527343885475842 I guess an even more cynical take would be that people stopped caring about the Palestinians specifically because they stopped being a legitimate terror threat. For decades they were told that if they put down their guns and bombs they'd find a world ready to embrace them, but instead the world decided it was safe to stop pretending to care when Israel instead continued clamping down. Like even if you granted every Israeli talking point about Gaza, there's absolutely no justification for the way they've continued colonizing the West Bank while Abbas sat on his hands doing nothing aggressive. Edit: Mosul is another great example of nobody particularly giving a poo poo when we annihilated the city to defeat ISIS. Trump couldn't have been more clear about having very loose rules of engagement and wanting to just blow poo poo up, and there was essentially no criticism of it. The norms governing poo poo like this were always unequally applied, but I don't know that they even really exist anymore. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 15:56 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 15:46
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Rushputin posted:Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. The UN has officially referred the the Palestinian territories as "occupied" since the 1970s. The exact term used has changed over time, but variations on "occupied" have been a constant theme. On top of that, the Israeli Supreme Court has repeatedly referred to the Palestinian territories as "occupied" or under "belligerent occupation" as part of various rulings regarding the powers of Israeli authorities there. No matter what kinds of word games someone wants to play, there's simply no denying that the Palestinian territories are under occupation. They're non-Israeli territory that has been invaded by Israel military and brought under Israeli military control and military law, but has not been annexed. Some Israeli sources will say that it's "disputed" and not "occupied", but as word games go, Bush's "enemy combatants" bullshit made more sense than that. It's "disputed" territory that has been "occupied" by the IDF. Getting into Twitter arguments about it is largely pointless, though, because the Western discourse on Israel (it's just as bad in the US and many other European countries) is so skewed in Israel's favor that you're not gonna be able to move the needle much on your own. You can do it if you want to, but don't expect to convince people.
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May 15, 2021 15:59
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you will run into people who will lose their poo poo if you call it an occupation because ~technically~ Gaza isn't occupied (just besieged).
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May 15, 2021 16:03
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There's a little bit of ambiguity because of the different jurisdictions in the West Bank, but it's mostly just a smokescreen. Area A is largely under Palestinian control (though some view the PA as basically being instruments of the occupation at this point, which wouldn't be entirely wrong), and settlers aren't allowed to go there at all, while Area B has split control, though in practice Israel still assists its settlers in colonizing new territory in Area B and subjecting Palestinians to military authority. Area C is the majority of the territory of the West Bank, and it's flat out under Israeli control, to the point where Palestinians are the ones who can't build anything without explicit Israeli approval, which in the vast majority of cases is denied.
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May 15, 2021 16:12
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https://twitter.com/ChrisLynnHedges/status/1393218731506032641?s=20 Good context on Israel/Palestine by Chris Hedges. That ethnostate is 100% enabled by America — the irony is how Israel’s racist belligerence in the region produces a national security threat to the U.S.
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May 15, 2021 16:37
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At the very least we will have washed our hands of our culpability in the violence, which is something. If Israel wants to continue down the path of violence after we bail on them, there's only so much we can do.
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May 15, 2021 16:52
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3.8 billion a year would go a good way.
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May 15, 2021 17:22
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Worth noting that Israel doesn’t want to annex the territories since that would mean on some level giving every Palestinian Israeli citizenship or forcibly deporting them (again). Neither is a good outcome since the first alienates everyone in Israel who wants to avoid coexistence with the Arabs and the second looks really bad internationally. By permantantly occupying them they can just treat them as giant death camps and steal whatever land they want free from pretty much any oversight.
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May 15, 2021 17:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:At the very least we will have washed our hands of our culpability in the violence, which is something. If Israel wants to continue down the path of violence after we bail on them, there's only so much we can do. Look if they're determined to be violent we have no choice but to pay them to buy our missiles, that's just reality kiddo
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May 15, 2021 17:26
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When did the world care in the first place that it could at any point stop doing so?
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May 15, 2021 17:27
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emanresu tnuocca posted:When did the world care in the first place that it could at any point stop doing so? There was definitely more pressure for settlement freezes and forcing Israel to engage in a peace process (even from Republican presidents) and Europe at least holding out the possibility of economic consequences if Israel went too far at various points. Now there's no pretense that things will ever get any better.
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May 15, 2021 17:34
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Ever notice all these times someone creates an ethnostate they she'll their neighbors and call it defense
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May 15, 2021 17:49
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Sinteres posted:I don't think the world would be ready to turn Israel into a pariah state even without American support. The difference between Israel and U.S./China is that the latter are huge and absolutely essential to the economic sectors of every country that isn't a hermit state autocracy. The difference between Israel and Syria/NK/Iran etc. is that the latter aren't as developed, get their income from different sectors of the economy, and are nowhere near as tightly wound to the Western trade/cultural sphere as Israel is. What this means is that A) it is easier to exclude and sanction Israel and achieve more without giving up as much and B) those achievements have more of an effect on Israel then on many other sanctioned countries, which are used to tougher conditions. You're right in that people generally are too unwilling to make any personal sacrifices and too lazy to give much of a poo poo about most atrocities in the world, but in this case it wouldn't require much and the target doesn't require as much of an effort because they are quite developed and even small hits would show. As much as many of them like to pretend their country is just bravely persisting under endless siege of the devious Arab horde, in truth Israelis are used to traveling all around the world, having nice relations with many countries, getting all the same consumer poo poo as other developed countries and being invited to Eurovision and so on.
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May 15, 2021 17:51
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Hot take https://mobile.twitter.com/HenMazzig/status/1393571241731178500
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May 15, 2021 17:51
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https://twitter.com/BtSIsrael/status/1393572406443319300 Can any Hebrew-speakers chime in on whether this is a typical thing? Just add it to the pile of horrors, I guess.
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May 15, 2021 17:58
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DarkCrawler posted:The difference between Israel and U.S./China is that the latter are huge and absolutely essential to the economic sectors of every country that isn't a hermit state autocracy. I just don't see any sign that even countries other than the US have any real interest in ostracizing Israel at this point either. China has a lot invested in Israel now, and Russia has significant ties there too, and it's not like either one is going to take issue on moral grounds against persecuting a Muslim minority. I guess European countries with sizable Muslim minorities might feel pressured at some point, but it's probably about as likely that they'll embrace reaction and sympathize with Israel instead. Obviously Israel would be hurt more by a split in relations with the world than the world would be hurt by cutting relations with Israel, but when even Saudi Arabia has normalized relations with Israel despite a completely dead peace process, who's going to lead the push to isolate them? If the US is still a democracy a generation from now, maybe the conversation will have advanced to the point where sympathy for Palestine on racial justice grounds is a widespread position, but by that point the facts on the ground will have advanced that much further in Israel's favor. Palestine being created as a lovely rump state of territory Israel didn't particularly want anyway may be a realistic future outcome, but at that point they obviously would have been better off with deals presented in the 90's, and possibly even in the recent past, so it's hard to see that as any victory.
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May 15, 2021 18:04
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mobby_6kl posted:Holy poo poo that's really the line they're going with? https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1393577210964058115?s=20 Pathetic statement.
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May 15, 2021 18:08
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Rushputin posted:Does anyone have some good resources on the (il)legality of the occupation? A German on Twitter (God help me) is basically arguing that a) calling the Occupied Palestinian Territories occupied is basically a fringe belief and b) even if they were, that doesn't mean it's in breach of international law. i think the best argument is to go directly to the border wall. what is it a border to? another state, or just another part of Israel? if it's another part of Israel, and it's to keep Palestinians in one spot, it would be a concentration camp or prison, wouldn't it? if it's part of Israel then wouldn't they be responsible for the safety of those people? wouldn't they be committing a war crime by bombing their own civilians (or civilians in general, which is already a war crime.) shouldn't they be punished for war crimes? on and on and on. the whole argument for Israeli statehood and Palestinian non-statehood contradicts itself at multiple points, as does Israel's attacking of Palestinians. and the best part is that it doesn't take encyclopedic knowledge of either war crimes, the conflict itself, or any other bullshit pedantry. it cuts straight to the core of all arguments imo.
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May 15, 2021 18:08
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Carew posted:https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1393577210964058115?s=20 lmao, what a loving ghoulish administration. just like all their predecessors
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May 15, 2021 18:15
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Carew posted:https://twitter.com/PressSec/status/1393577210964058115?s=20 We have communicated to israel that we need more English language guarantees that no Americans are being harmed while children are bombed. -- Helicopters targeted agricultural land west of Khan Younis -- It's 8:33 PM now. Hamas has declared they are ready for a ground war with Israel. Also stating they will bomb tell aviv for 6 months . Unfortunately by that time the Gaza strip will be a parking lot from Israel bombing 5-10 high rises per day. Remember everyone. When you state that France or UK should be an ethno state your a Nazi bigoted racist piece of poo poo Bit when you state Israel shouldn't be an ethno state your a Nazi bigoted racist piece of poo poo WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 18:27
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The line that Hamas hides behind women and children (and I guess journalists) doesn't really work anymore when you have shown you will indiscriminately attack women and children.
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May 15, 2021 18:29
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Oh well, my very fruitful discussion (I know I shouldn't engage, but you know how it is) has ended, he did some circular word lawyering, then threw out the usual "IDF does its utmost to protect civilians" canard and linked some paper by Mena Watch, which is apparently an Austrian "independent think tank", that he insists debunks my point that Israel is explicitly breaking the conventions by resettling their population. I... saved myself the brain cells.
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May 15, 2021 18:31
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mango sentinel posted:The line that Hamas hides behind women and children (and I guess journalists) doesn't really work anymore when you have shown you will indiscriminately attack women and children.
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May 15, 2021 18:33
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Wait who in israel is even authorising and pushing for this? Is there a decent article for background info to cover the month of political activity, because the confusing info I can find seems to imply that the election in march this year led to a failure to form a government for netanyahu and that the coalition formation fighting was rolling on as recent as last week?
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May 15, 2021 18:37
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And the thing is. If Israel starts losing in any way shape or form the US will step in to "ensure peace is maintained"
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May 15, 2021 18:38
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Sinteres posted:I just don't see any sign that even countries other than the US have any real interest in ostracizing Israel at this point either. China has a lot invested in Israel now, and Russia has significant ties there too, and it's not like either one is going to take issue on moral grounds against persecuting a Muslim minority. I guess European countries with sizable Muslim minorities might feel pressured at some point, but it's probably about as likely that they'll embrace reaction and sympathize with Israel instead. Obviously Israel would be hurt more by a split in relations with the world than the world would be hurt by cutting relations with Israel, but when even Saudi Arabia has normalized relations with Israel despite a completely dead peace process, who's going to lead the push to isolate them? If the US is still a democracy a generation from now, maybe the conversation will have advanced to the point where sympathy for Palestine on racial justice grounds is a widespread position, but by that point the facts on the ground will have advanced that much further in Israel's favor. Palestine being created as a lovely rump state of territory Israel didn't particularly want anyway may be a realistic future outcome, but at that point they obviously would have been better off with deals presented in the 90's, and possibly even in the recent past, so it's hard to see that as any victory. The thing is, there are other countries in the region as or vastly more important than Israel to both Russia and China. Sure, it is fruitless for them to ask boycotts now, but if America abandoned it? It could quickly become a hot button domestic issue that isn't much of a concession from Russia or China to drop in the face of the massive Arab and/or Islamic world. Russia in particular is orienting itself with the Iran/Iraq/Syria/Lebanon axis which is probably the most anti-Israeli group of countries in the world. And ultimately if China wants to be a superpower, it has to pick a side and I don't think it would pick the Israeli one - why would it? U.S. support is not based on Israel being strategically or economically invaluable. Ultimately no other country has very warm feelings towards Israel, Europe in particular clearly just not being motivated by anything else then guilt and U.S. whining about including their little buddy. China and Russia won't be going to bat for them in the UN at all, much less with the fanatic intensity of the U.S. The current path is leading to full South Africa and even China and Russia have Muslim minorities they don't persecute. Honestly I've always viewed the Chechenya/Uighur situation to be more about separatism - whether real or imagined. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:47 on May 15, 2021 |
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May 15, 2021 18:39
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:And the thing is. If Israel starts losing in any way shape or form the US will step in to "ensure peace is maintained"
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May 15, 2021 18:47
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FlamingLiberal posted:That’s never happened before with one of these conflicts. Mainly because Israel can’t lose. Hezbollah: "Ahem."  Obviously there is no way they can lose in the conflicts against Palestinians though. mango sentinel posted:The line that Hamas hides behind women and children (and I guess journalists) doesn't really work anymore when you have shown you will indiscriminately attack women and children. Yeah I think even Hamas would have picked up on it now. Wait no, especially Hamas. Because of all the deaths.
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May 15, 2021 18:50
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FlamingLiberal posted:That’s never happened before with one of these conflicts. Mainly because Israel can’t lose. It's happened a lot, Israel would not have survived the rounds of post-Independence wars without first European, and later American support.
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May 15, 2021 18:55
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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DarkCrawler posted:The thing is, there are other countries in the region as or vastly more important than Israel to both Russia and China. Sure, it is fruitless for them to ask boycotts now, but if America abandoned it? It could quickly become a hot button domestic issue that isn't much of a concession from Russia or China to drop in the face of the massive Arab and/or Islamic world. That Shia-dominated group of countries are exactly why Israel's linked with a number of Sunni countries, so China might not prefer Israel over all those countries, but once you throw in KSA and the UAE it could be different story. Of course the US loving off could cause all sorts of realignments, so who knows where everyone would land, but if Russia can so far balance its interests in Turkey, Syria and Israel, I don't see why the US de-emphasizing its role in the region would suddenly make the Russian position more rather than less difficult. I think you're underestimating Europe's attachment to Israel. Just look at how much trouble Corbyn's position on Israel caused. Even if it's 100% manufactured smear machine poo poo, it still worked. And the far right in Europe seem to be developing an attachment to Israel as they focus their hatred against Muslims. 'China and Russia only persecute/commit genocide against some of their minorities to protect their sovereignty so maybe they will care about Palestinians' seems like a stretch to me. DarkCrawler posted:Hezbollah: "Ahem." If you mean Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in the first place, that's one thing, but the internet dramatically overstates Hezbollah's "win" over Israel in 2006. If Hezbollah saw it as such a victory, they would have started another war by now instead of carefully avoiding any provocation even when Israel bombs them.
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May 15, 2021 19:05
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PittTheElder posted:It's happened a lot, Israel would not have survived the rounds of post-Independence wars without first European, and later American support. Well that was the Cold War, the other side was supplied too. And of course studying the conflicts at large, Israel almost always had an edge in organization, numbers (on battlefields and not just on paper), training, l technology and strategy. Either most or all of those categories.
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May 15, 2021 19:07
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