US Immigration Policy Megathread

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misadventurous: Jun 26, 2013; the wise gem bowed her head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad quartzes. you imbecile. you fucking moron"

Sorry but �Joe Biden Is Bad� vs �arguing against mischaracterization, talking positively about what the administration is trying to do� is a really loaded way to present the conversation. I admit it is hard for me to feel generous, given how much scrutiny is already paid to criticism of the administration in this forum vs blandly positive statements of support

I was intending more to be mildly provocative than put words in his mouth though. Maybe I should have finished my coffee first

# ? May 15, 2021 15:38

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:09

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

misadventurous posted:

Sorry but �Joe Biden Is Bad� vs �arguing against mischaracterization, talking positively about what the administration is trying to do� is a really loaded way to present the conversation. I admit it is hard for me to feel generous, given how much scrutiny is already paid to criticism of the administration in this forum vs blandly positive statements of support

I was intending more to be mildly provocative than put words in his mouth though. Maybe I should have finished my coffee first

I don't think anybody wants or expects you guys to shower Biden with praise. Hell, none of us are doing that.

The particular mischaracterization we are � or at least I am � pushing back against is "Joe Biden has done nothing about immigration" or its functional equivalent "Joe Biden's accomplishments have been merely symbolic." And the particularly inflammatory behavior of barging into this thread with any negative press coverage one can get their hands across, with the byline or subtext of "wow, how come nobody is talking about this?!?"

It has been two pages and four days since I spent more than an hour researching and compiling expert resources on this, and to date, everyone who is "left of liberal", to use your own label from your previous post, has ignored it. Willa, sexpig (RIP), pentacoastal elites, ytlaya... there hasn't even been an attempted takedown of even one of the sources I posted. Pentacoastal elites has kinda sorta acknowledged said post in passing, and claimed that no one is ignoring it, but that is of course false.

Look, in my opinion, if the goal is to have productive conversations in this thread, rather than arguing in circles and exchanging accusations of bad intent, the guideline should be this: you're one hundred percent free to criticize the Biden administration about a failing, but you need to research and explain the reasons and contributing factors behind that failing, rather than automatically and immediately attributing it to malice or incompetence or both. Specialized D&D threads exist to help readers and participants understand those subjects better and gain different perspectives and insights. This is what has always set this forum apart from other forums that also talk politics. This is why "Biden is not withdrawing Trump's job offers to immigration judges!!!" fails to meet this threshold. It is why the mods objected to it: not because it is false but because it is an almost zero effort means of furthering one's preconceived notions about Joe Biden.

So yes, there should be some threshold of effort in these D&D threads. If one feels disinclined to meet that, well... there are other forums for low-brow bashing of liberals and the current liberal administration.

# ? May 15, 2021 17:05

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

1. Do your standards for productive conversations apply to all presidencies, or just this particular presidency? Do they extend beyond presidencies to other elected offices? And for both major political parties?

2. If you have a direct question to me or other posters, maybe frame it with our quotes & ask it, instead of posting walls-of-text that are hard to wade through. Are there particular questions within your posts that have asked questions to the people you're calling out, or are we expected to sift through every source & point out their fallacies about HHS's control of concentration camps being different from CBP's concentration camps? Once again: It's hard to challenge or support sources on this topic bc of the lack of transparency for media and lawyers. You can post all the hagiographic coverage you want, but if it boils down to "you have to take our word for it that things are better" I'm not going to.

3. This is why I would like a mod to elaborate on his statement, rather than participants.

eta: I'm happy to take this to QCS if mods would prefer.

Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 15, 2021

# ? May 15, 2021 18:53

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Come on, willa. Complaining about "walls of text that are hard to wade through" � you can't be serious. You realize you're in D&D, surely? Or maybe you took a wrong turn somewhere?

Yes, you are indeed expected to read the sources that people painstakingly research and summarize for you. That is what "meet effort with effort" means, and it is an integral part of good faith debate. You shouldn't need a mod to tell you this.

# ? May 15, 2021 20:36

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

Willa Rogers posted:

1. Do your standards for productive conversations apply to all presidencies, or just this particular presidency? Do they extend beyond presidencies to other elected offices? And for both major political parties?

2. If you have a direct question to me or other posters, maybe frame it with our quotes & ask it, instead of posting walls-of-text that are hard to wade through. Are there particular questions within your posts that have asked questions to the people you're calling out, or are we expected to sift through every source & point out their fallacies about HHS's control of concentration camps being different from CBP's concentration camps? Once again: It's hard to challenge or support sources on this topic bc of the lack of transparency for media and lawyers. You can post all the hagiographic coverage you want, but if it boils down to "you have to take our word for it that things are better" I'm not going to.

3. This is why I would like a mod to elaborate on his statement, rather than participants.

eta: I'm happy to take this to QCS if mods would prefer.

Why do you keep ignoring what Thorn wrote?

# ? May 15, 2021 20:50

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

I mean, props to Biden for not arresting as many people under ICE as Trump & Obama did, and for increasing visas after being pressured to do so, but that has nothing to do with kids being held in concentration camps while barring media & legal access, which was the thrust of my objections to Biden's immigration policies and one I didn't see countered in any of the sources provided.

eta the graf for which I asked for clarification:

GreyjoyBastard posted:

or to not argue against mischaracterizations and not talk about what positive things the Biden admin is trying to do, which sorry, that's not an acceptable norm to establish in this thread

I've pretty much focused entirely on the kiddy kamps itt rather than other aspects of immigration policy. I wanted to know whether I am supposed to counter that with the positives Biden's done on immigration in order to follow a mod's directive that it's "not an acceptable norm" to not do so, although I haven't seen that directive used for any other topic or politician in dnd, and I find it to be a baffling request.

Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 15, 2021

# ? May 15, 2021 20:55

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Willa Rogers posted:

I've pretty much focused entirely on the kiddy kamps itt rather than other aspects of immigration policy. I wanted to know whether I am supposed to counter that with the positives Biden's done on immigration in order to follow a mod's directive that it's "not an acceptable norm" to not do so, although I haven't seen that directive used for any other topic or politician in dnd, and I find it to be a baffling request.

on a reread, i see how it may have been unclear

the argument in that post (or at least the conclusion as I read it) was basically: other people shouldn't be allowed, or at least should be discouraged, from posting positive things about Biden

you are not required to post positive things about Biden, but other posters are allowed to

Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 15, 2021

# ? May 15, 2021 21:39

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Thanks for the clarification!

I got confused between your seeming to say "balance things out or else" and TWT's demand that I react to posts of his that weren't responsive to the particular matters I was discussing (ie: kiddy concentration camps).

# ? May 15, 2021 21:44

Space Gopher: Jul 31, 2006; BLITHERING IDIOT AND HARDCORE DURIAN APOLOGIST. LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS SHIT DON'T STINK EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT DOES BECAUSE I'M SUPER CULTURED.

Willa Rogers posted:

The disagreement is because "out of sight, out of mind" is not an acceptable excuse for handwaving unvetted third parties from running the top-secret HHS concentration camps, and due to the banning of media/lawyers from seeing the kids we have no idea whether HHS concentration camps are an upgrade from the CPB concentration camps.

Can you explain why you're calling HHS facilities "concentration camps"?

One of the defining features of concentration camps is that they lock people up for an indefinite period (or, in some specific and notorious cases, until they're murdered on an industrial scale). HHS facilities are specifically geared towards getting people out and into some kind of community support, which would seem to go against that definition. They seem more like refugee camps - sometimes lovely ones, to be sure, that absolutely need to be improved - rather than concentration camps.

# ? May 15, 2021 22:09

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

The reason is because "concentration camps" sounds more alarming and morally concerning than temporary housing and processing facilities.

# ? May 15, 2021 22:11

Willa Rogers: Mar 11, 2005

Indeed; "pop-up sites" has a much warmer feel to it, like a sudden music venue or an aromatic food truck.

But given reports that children are being denied food & told to poo poo in plastic bags, I'm gonna stick with the nomenclature that most suits it.

# ? May 15, 2021 22:19

Space Gopher: Jul 31, 2006; BLITHERING IDIOT AND HARDCORE DURIAN APOLOGIST. LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS SHIT DON'T STINK EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT DOES BECAUSE I'M SUPER CULTURED.

Willa Rogers posted:

Indeed; "pop-up sites" has a much warmer feel to it, like a sudden music venue or an aromatic food truck.

But given reports that children are being denied food & told to poo poo in plastic bags, I'm gonna stick with the nomenclature that most suits it.

Can you explain why you think that? What you're saying here boils down to "I'm calling these places concentration camps because I want to" with an extra layer of snark about pop-ups on top.

The US needs to do better, and build better facilities with better services. But, "concentration camp" does not mean "place with inadequate services," and honestly, this sounds a lot like the experiences that people I know who have spent significant chunks of their childhood in refugee camps have described. It's not acceptable and we need to do better. But, despite that, it's still far from indefinite imprisonment, and it's a step in the right direction from older policies that deliberately broke apart families and worked to keep kids from accessing family in the US.

# ? May 15, 2021 22:42

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Willa Rogers posted:

Indeed; "pop-up sites" has a much warmer feel to it, like a sudden music venue or an aromatic food truck.

But given reports that children are being denied food & told to poo poo in plastic bags, I'm gonna stick with the nomenclature that most suits it.

The purpose of the HHS facilities is to disperse the children to sponsors/guardians as fast as they can. Their purpose is, quite literally, the opposite of a concentration camp. The fact you've jumped to calling the HHS facilities concentration camps, when a month ago only the CPB camps where getting referred to as such, on the basis of nothing but a scattered handful of reports about bad conditions at a few of them (bad being no where near the "concentration camp" bad scale either), seemingly only because the administration managed to clear them out of the CPB camps seems to betray it's purpose as nothing else but to rile people up. This is really loving obvious from the fact you attempt to jam the term as many times as you can into every post you make such that you sound like Giuliani's presidential campaign talking about 9/11.

Jarmak fucked around with this message at 23:34 on May 15, 2021

# ? May 15, 2021 23:31

Homora Gaykemi: Apr 30, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

Space Gopher posted:

DHS might help him out, but there simply aren't a ton of DHS agents who are trained to hurt people directly (instead of just shredding complaint forms), and a lot of them have day jobs doing things like running immigration concentration camps.

Space Gopher posted:

Of course, they're doing very little of that right now, because the agency is diverting so much budget and effort to Kiddie Concentration Camps.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 16, 2021 00:45

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Jarmak posted:

The purpose of the HHS facilities is to disperse the children to sponsors/guardians as fast as they can. Their purpose is, quite literally, the opposite of a concentration camp. The fact you've jumped to calling the HHS facilities concentration camps, when a month ago only the CPB camps where getting referred to as such, on the basis of nothing but a scattered handful of reports about bad conditions at a few of them (bad being no where near the "concentration camp" bad scale either), seemingly only because the administration managed to clear them out of the CPB camps seems to betray it's purpose as nothing else but to rile people up. This is really loving obvious from the fact you attempt to jam the term as many times as you can into every post you make such that you sound like Giuliani's presidential campaign talking about 9/11.

Regardless of their purpose kids are in their way too long and past the statutory limits set on that behavior.

The federal govt warehousing children is not a state we want to be in, abuse and neglect is a certainty.

# ? May 16, 2021 00:53

Judakel: Jul 29, 2004; Can't post for 9 years!

How are u posted:

The reason is because "concentration camps" sounds more alarming and morally concerning than temporary housing and processing facilities.

Technically, all concentration camps are temporary housing and processing facilities.

# ? May 16, 2021 01:01

How are u: May 19, 2005; by Azathoth

Seems like Biden is working hard on the issues.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/15/hhs-covid-stockpile-money-border-migrants-488427

Biden admin reroutes billions in emergency stockpile, Covid funds to border crunch

quote:

The Department of Health and Human Services has diverted more than $2 billion meant for other health initiatives toward covering the cost of caring for unaccompanied immigrant children, as the Biden administration grapples with a record influx of migrants on the southern border.

The redirected funds include $850 million that Congress originally allocated to rebuild the nation�s Strategic National Stockpile, the emergency medical reserve strained by the Covid-19 response. Another $850 million is being taken from a pot intended to help expand coronavirus testing, according to three people with knowledge of the matter.

The reshuffling, which HHS detailed to congressional appropriators in notices over the last two months, illustrates the extraordinary financial toll that sheltering more than 20,000 unaccompanied children has taken on the department so far this year, as it scrambled to open emergency housing and add staff and services across the country.

It also could open the administration up to further scrutiny over a border strategy that has dogged President Joe Biden for months, as administration officials struggle to stem the flow of tens of thousands of unaccompanied children into the U.S.

On its own, the $2.13 billion in diverted money exceeds the government�s annual budget for the unaccompanied children program in each of the last two fiscal years. It is also far above the roughly half-billion dollars that the Trump administration shifted in 2018 toward sheltering a migrant child population that had swelled as a result of its strict immigration policies, including separating children from adults at the border.

In addition to transferring money from the Strategic National Stockpile and Covid-19 testing, HHS also has pulled roughly $436 million from a range of existing health initiatives across the department.

�They�ve been in a situation of needing to very rapidly expand capacity, and emergency capacity is much more expensive,� said Mark Greenberg, a senior fellow at the Migration Policy Institute who led HHS� Administration for Children and Families from 2013 to 2015. �You can�t just say there�s going to be a waiting list or we�re going to shut off intake. There�s literally not a choice.�

HHS spokesperson Mark Weber told POLITICO that the department has worked closely with the Office of Management and Budget to find ways to keep its unaccompanied minor operation funded in the face of rising costs.

�All options are on the table,� he said, adding that HHS has traditionally sought to pull funding from parts of the department where the money is not immediately needed. �This program has relied, year after year, on the transfer of funds.�

Health secretary Xavier Becerra has the ability to shift money among programs within the sprawling department so long as he notifies Congress, an authority that his predecessors have often resorted to during past influxes of migrant children.

But these transfers come as HHS has publicly sought to pump new funds into the Strategic National Stockpile and Covid-19 testing efforts by emphasizing the critical role that both play in the pandemic response and future preparedness efforts.

�The fight against Covid-19 is not yet over,� Becerra testified to a House panel on Wednesday in defense of a budget request that would allocate $905 million for the stockpile. �Even as HHS works to beat this pandemic, we are also preparing for the next public health crisis.�

Becerra later stressed the need to �make sure we�ve got the resources� to replenish the Strategic National Stockpile, which came under scrutiny early in the pandemic after officials discovered it lacked anywhere near the amount of protective equipment and medical supplies needed to respond to the crisis.

�We�ve learned that this is going to be a critical component of being able to respond adequately and quickly to any future health care crisis,� he told Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-Mich.).

In another exchange, Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-Okla.) repeatedly pressed Becerra over whether HHS would benefit from Congress investing more in other parts of its operation, rather than funding a further expansion of Covid testing. Mullin specifically cited the record numbers of migrant children arriving at the border.

ay of emergency response and logistics companies to build out services and staff at the emergency shelters.

�If they had started this year with 16,000 beds instead of 8,000, they could have managed in February and had time to determine how in an orderly way to expand capacity for the very large numbers in March,� Greenberg said. �Fundamentally, it�s this mix of: numbers were greater than expected, capacity was less than needed and there was tremendous pressure to alleviate crowding at [the border].�

Those dynamics are expected to hold for at least the next couple months, as hundreds of new unaccompanied minors arrive at the border daily and are transferred into the health department�s care.

And with no indication so far that the Biden administration will seek new emergency border aid from Congress, that means HHS� expenses are only likely to balloon further, forcing additional costly transfers within the department.

�It�s going to be expensive,� Carey said. �I can�t think of a situation that�s more complex than this.�

Seems to me like a good faith effort to make life better for those kids.

# ? May 16, 2021 01:47

Cactus Ghost: Dec 20, 2003; you can actually inflate your scrote pretty safely with sterile saline, syringes, needles, and aseptic technique. its a niche kink iirc

the saline just slowly gets absorbed into your blood but in the meantime you got a big round smooth distended nutsack

Judakel posted:

Technically, all concentration camps are temporary housing and processing facilities.

I think "dispersing people is the opposite purpose of a concentration camp" is a reasonable basis to not call them concentration camps. I also think that "we're housing a racial underclass in inhumane conditions, but for less time than the overt fascists were, and trust us, it's for good reasons. requests to verify our claims will be denied" is also cold comfort and a reasonable basis to explicitly draw a link between ICE camps and HHS ones by use of the term.

# ? May 16, 2021 02:08

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-migrant-children-government-facilities-sponsors/

quote:

Overcrowding at these facilities has since eased and the number of unaccompanied children in Border Patrol custody has plummeted by over 90%, falling below 600 this week. However, there are still more than 20,000 unaccompanied children in the care of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), which houses them until it can release them to sponsors, who tend to be family members in the U.S.

While shelters overseen by HHS are much better suited for children than Border Patrol facilities, as of last week, more than 13,000 of the unaccompanied youths in the department's custody were being held in convention centers, work camps, military bases and other emergency sites that are not licensed to care for minors, according to internal data reviewed by CBS News.

HHS now has the formidable task of locating and vetting sponsors for more than 20,000 children currently in custody, as well as the hundreds of minors it continues to receive from Border Patrol daily.

Between February and April, HHS' Office of Refugee Resettlement received 33,700 unaccompanied children, with each month setting a historic record, according to agency figures obtained by CBS News. Between Mr. Biden's inauguration and this week, HHS placed more than 20,000 children with sponsors, according to a department official.

HHS has been increasing its discharge rate in recent weeks. In late January, it released an average of 89 minors daily, the department official said. Recently, HHS has been placing an average of 608 children with sponsors per day.

The length of time children are spending in HHS care has also decreased. According to the HHS official, migrant minors are spending about 29 days in the department's care before being released, compared to the 42-day average in late January.

The refugee office has created an expedited release process for children who have parents willing to care for them in the U.S. It has also been paying for the travel costs of minors and their sponsors to facilitate their reunification, and allowed case managers to fill out application forms for potential sponsors.

I'd been having a little trouble finding data, especially on how long kids were staying in ORR facilities. Iirc 29 days is within the statutory maximum, and cutting it by a third is a good start.

also decidedly not concentration-campy

Apparently Mayorkas testified before congress on border stuff this week, too. Not seeing anything terribly interesting, or at least not anything terribly interesting that isn't reported in the above article etc.

otoh, there's a time article on him that is at least informative about how he wants himself and his DHS to be perceived:

https://time.com/6048061/alejandro-mayorkas-dhs-profile/

quote:

t was around 4 a.m. on April 28 when Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas jolted himself awake. As he lay in the dark, his mind locked onto the decision he had made the day before to limit the Trump-era practice of arresting and deporting undocumented immigrants who show up at local courthouses for legal proceedings.

Unable to sleep, he got out of bed, fired off an email about the politically sensitive move and then turned to the next conundrum. In the dark, he scanned the most recent data on how long unaccompanied minors were spending in Border Patrol custody, one of several onerous issues awaiting him in the day ahead. �There are times when I try to go back to bed, and there are times when I realize it�s not going to work,� Mayorkas says 3� hours later over the engine noise of a Coast Guard Gulfstream jet, heading from Washington, D.C., to New York City�s La Guardia airport for a day of meetings. �This morning it wasn�t going to work.�

...

As he made his way across town in his SUV to the naturalization ceremony, Mayorkas revisited some of the hard calls he has made over the years. He described the politically risky decision to cut $160 million from the operation costs of the immigration service in 2010 to help avoid raising citizenship application fees from $680 to $727, the thinness of an immigrant family�s budget a visceral memory of his own youth.

quote:

One of Mayorkas� first law-and-order steps has been getting his own house in order. In March, he dismissed the department�s entire advisory council, concluding that some of its members were there to advance political agendas rather than offer policy expertise. He followed Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin�s lead in launching an internal investigation into domestic extremism within his own department. Other than reading about reports of social media profiles, he says, he has �no greater information� than what�s in the public domain about this threat, but he says he has an obligation to �ensure that we do not have violent extremists within our ranks.� On May 11, the department announced it was forming a Center for Prevention Programs and Partnerships to further target domestic extremism.

Mayorkas� inclination toward enforcement is showing up in some of his policy decisions as well. After Lincoln Center, his next stop was a 1�-hour meeting with a dozen or so immigration attorneys and community leaders about how he can improve the treatment of people facing deportation. Mayorkas has asked for a complete overhaul of the guidelines used by Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers to determine whom to arrest and whom to deport. Several activists argued forcefully that immigration agents shouldn�t consider criminal convictions when deciding whom to deport, given the stark racial disparities in American policing.

...

On a trip to the Rio Grande Valley on March 6, Mayorkas concluded that HHS needed help and, pressed by Biden in an Oval Office meeting four days later, promised to speed up the system. Within a week, he had directed FEMA to set up over a dozen emergency shelters for HHS that could house up to thousands of children. He deployed over 300 immigration staff to assist HHS with virtual case management to unite children with their sponsors and activated DHS�s volunteer force to help children in shelters.

some reason for optimism here imo

Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 04:21 on May 16, 2021

# ? May 16, 2021 04:17

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Not to Kramer in or backseat mod, but I've been lurking this thread and would like to make a suggestion based on experience with education reform initiatives...

I think when posters are pointing out that kids pooping in bags, not having access to education, or other lovely circumstances are correct that it is bad and it shouldn't happen. And I think most people want some version of reform to immigration. So, like how about discussion go in those terms. Because from my experience when you want to have actual productive conversations about reform, there are three elements:

-- Recognizing our current reality

-- Constructing a vision of what should happen

-- Considering what would actually have to happen to get from the current reality to a world that matches the intended vision

I think what kinda happened in this thread is that people pointed at some definitely lovely things that we should all agree should not be happening, but framed the conversation in terms of how this is evidence that Joe Biden is bad or make insinuations that people don't care about the immigration issue anymore because they're hypocrites blinded by partisanship. And then other people sort of push back with evidence that Biden is doing a better job with immigration. And nobody actually talks about the kid pooping in the bag.

And you end up with these sort of meaningless diction based debates around what constitutes a concentration camp.

I think when you have a reform based conversation and really try to anchor things in those three lenses I discussed before then you can have these discussions:

Biden does something well meaning or positive towards immigration: (Vision) Is this actually servicing the longterm goals we should be working towards? Is this effective? Has this been done before?

There is some sort of border crisis that leads to the Biden admin taking on a bunch of short term but questionable measures: (Current Reality) What is going to be the impact of these decisions? What are the underlying issues leading to this crisis? Do we have any control over preventing events like this in the future?

An article comes out about an awful thing in our immigration system: How does this need to change? How can that change happen?

Because right now, it just seems likes people are trying to leverage this topic into arguments they're more comfortable having.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 22, 2021

# ? May 16, 2021 04:28

Vorik: Mar 27, 2014

GreyjoyBastard posted:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/immigration-migrant-children-government-facilities-sponsors/

I'd been having a little trouble finding data, especially on how long kids were staying in ORR facilities. Iirc 29 days is within the statutory maximum, and cutting it by a third is a good start.

also decidedly not concentration-campy

Apparently Mayorkas testified before congress on border stuff this week, too. Not seeing anything terribly interesting, or at least not anything terribly interesting that isn't reported in the above article etc.

otoh, there's a time article on him that is at least informative about how he wants himself and his DHS to be perceived:

https://time.com/6048061/alejandro-mayorkas-dhs-profile/

some reason for optimism here imo

Thank goodness for the Biden administration🙏🏾. It almost feels weird having a government that's staffed by people who actually care about their jobs, want to do good and are doing everything they can to move the country forward 😔. That's how bad our state of affairs was. The number of migrants looking to cross the border has increased to a two-decade high, and there are huge numbers of unaccompanied children in that figure as well. To say it is an incredibly difficult and complex situation would be an understatement. I also believe Kamala is on the right track wrt illegal immigration. The US has to work with Mexico/South/Central America to help those countries stabilize their situation so that people don't feel the need to leave their homelands to try and make the dangerous journey here.

# ? May 16, 2021 04:55

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

Timeless Appeal posted:

Not to Kramer in or backseat mod, but I've been lurking this thread and would like to make a suggestion based on experience with education reform initiatives...

I think when posters are pointing out that kids pooping in bags, not having access to education, or other making GBS threads circumstances are correct that it is bad and it shouldn't happen. And I think most people want some version of reform to immigration. So, like how about discussion go in those terms. Because from my experience when you want to have actual productive conversations about reform, there are three elements:

-- Recognizing our current reality

-- Constructing a vision of what should happen

-- Considering what would actually have to happen to get from the current reality to a world that matches the intended vision

I think what kinda happened in this thread is that people pointed at some definitely lovely things that we should all agree should not be happening, but framed the conversation in terms of how this is evidence that Joe Biden is bad or make insinuations that people don't care about the immigration issue anymore because they're hypocrites blinded by partisanship. And then other people sort of push back with evidence that Biden is doing a better job with immigration. And nobody actually talks about the kid pooping in the bag.

And you end up with these sort of meaningless diction based debates around what constitutes a concentration camp.

I think when you have a reform based conversation and really try to anchor things in those three lenses I discussed before then you can have these discussions:

Biden does something well meaning or positive towards immigration: (Vision) Is this actually servicing the longterm goals we should be working towards? Is this effective? Has this been done before?

There is some sort of border crisis that leads to the Biden admin taking on a bunch of short term but questionable measures: (Current Reality) What is going to be the impact of these decisions? What are the underlying issues leading to this crisis? Do we have any control over preventing events like this in the future?

An article comes out about an awful thing in our immigration system: How does this need to change? How can that change happen?

Because right now, it just seems likes people are trying to leverage this topic into arguments they're more comfortable having.

I absolutely, one hundred percent want to know about awful instances like kids having to poop in plastic bags. Such conditions are atrocious and unacceptable.

But I also want to understand why that is happening.

Are these refugee centers/concentration camps/whatever bursting at the seams to such an extent that there are no restrooms available in a timely manner?

Is it because the guards are being abusive/neglectful towards these kids, even when restroom facilities are available?

Is there some other problem, like broken plumbing that cannot be serviced due to covid or whatever?

How widespread is the issue? Did a volunteer see a one-time occurrence of a kid pooping in a bag and blow the whistle, or are we talking about cells full of plastic bags with poop in them?

I think one thing everyone can agree on is that the Biden administration needs to start allowing qualified access to the facilities for attorneys as well as well-known, vetted media organizations. I have no idea what is stopping them from doing that � whose job would it be to give such an order? Someone at DHS? HHS? Would it be determined at the facility level? Can Biden just issue an executive order along those lines and have it go into effect immediately?

# ? May 16, 2021 04:56

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

How are u posted:

Seems like Biden is working hard on the issues.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/15/hhs-covid-stockpile-money-border-migrants-488427

Biden admin reroutes billions in emergency stockpile, Covid funds to border crunch

Seems to me like a good faith effort to make life better for those kids.

Yeah I read that article.

It doesnt solve the main issue. An imprisonment strategy built on a conservative and timid approach towards immigration.

Let families thru. Dont let the fed govt corral them. Return back to a pre Clinton approach to immigration.

# ? May 16, 2021 06:46

Vorik: Mar 27, 2014

Shageletic posted:

Yeah I read that article.

It doesnt solve the main issue. An imprisonment strategy built on a conservative and timid approach towards immigration.

Let families thru. Dont let the fed govt corral them. Return back to a pre Clinton approach to immigration.

Biden is already letting families come pick up their children. What are you talking about?

# ? May 16, 2021 06:55

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Vorik posted:

Biden is already letting families come pick up their children. What are you talking about?

Title 42 bars parents from entering the US due to the "covid pandemic".

There is a temporary exception for their children, who are now left to fend for themselves in a notoriously unkind and abusive massive bureacracy.

Biden refuses to rescind the Trump era rule, like many other rules made during that time.

e: one interesting development, Biden waived background checks for people that work in the expanded camps

quote:

The Biden administration announced that in March it would open eight new emergency sites across the Southwest, adding 15,000 new beds, more than doubling the size of its existing system.

These emergency sites don't have to be licensed by state authorities or provide the same services as permanent HHS facilities. They also cost far more, an estimated $775 per child per day.

And to staff the sites quickly, the Biden administration has waived vetting procedures intended to protect minors from potential harm.

https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-waives-fbi-checks-caregivers-new-migrant-facilities

In the meantime extensive background checks and ID'ing must occur for any relatives coming to claim unattended children in the camps.

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 16, 2021

# ? May 16, 2021 16:39

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

With facility staff you can make sure never is actually alone with kids via good policies (which is a baseline good policy for group homes, speaking from direct experience) and the other you are placing a ton of trust into because they will be the full time guardian of a kid with near-zero supervision and the potential for abuse is infinitely higher.

That part at least is things functioning more or less as they should given the challenges, since zero supervision is emphatically far worse than some slapped together supervisory stuff. Still better to background check the gently caress out of everyone obviously. My impression currently is that they're now mostly experiencing the wild inhumanity that is the baseline with the American foster system

# ? May 16, 2021 18:28

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

These are undocumented children, trying to meet up with their relatives who are more likely than not illegal as well.

There are literally thousands of catalogued abuses by HHS staff against children

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/us/immigrant-children-sexual-abuse.amp.html

Let the parents come in with their kids and it would obviate so much suffering. And Biden doesnt do that......why?

# ? May 16, 2021 20:09

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

One of my major hopes with all this is that maybe the absolutely pathetic state of the entire umbrella of hhs (both state and federal) will be more broadly recognized and it can get even 1/10th of the resources and attention it needs to not be the absolute shame on our entire country that it currently is.

# ? May 16, 2021 20:13

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

An interesting CNN story about Harris trying to clarify her role with immigration. Definitely not a flattering story for myself as I did fall into misunderstanding Harris's job, but more so the administration as it implicitly states Harris's team viewing the border situation as an overall bad look.

On the plus side, I am glad that the administration is focusing on root causes. It gets buried at the end, but

quote:

Harris has stressed that her role is to address the "root causes" of migration beginning in the Northern Triangle countries and Mexico, rather than the "symptoms" of it manifesting at the border, which are being addressed by the Homeland Security secretary. Without a diplomatic push in those countries, "we are just in a perpetual system of only dealing with the symptoms," she said in April.

Harris' meetings also indicate where her focus has been. Immigration advocates and regional experts who have participated in roundtables with the vice president describe Harris asking detailed questions on a variety of issues, like agricultural science and water irrigation strategies to tackle food insecurity and infrastructure needs.

Another source familiar with the ongoing discussions on regional strategy said the vice president's office has been soliciting research on issues, ranging from governance to economic development to climate change, from foundations that study and work in the region.

"She's asking for a lot of information. ... She's reaching out to a lot of groups to get the best information and to really go in with a sense of who is who and the sense of how can they -- the administration -- move the agenda," the source said, adding that prior to a recent meeting with Guatemalan justice sector leaders, the vice president's team asked for input on what issues to raise with them.
Internally, Harris has been intimately involved in the crafting of a regional strategy, communicating regularly with National Security Council officials. Cabinet members, along with other administration officials, are also putting together proposals on the administration's root-causes strategy, which Harris is expected to discuss while in Mexico and Guatemala in June, a senior administration official previously told CNN.

"She'll have to approve this. We'll brief it to her, she'll make changes and then once she's ready to roll it out, that's what we're going to do," the official said.

So, potentially some interesting stuff coming up? I don't know. I have mixed feelings about the state of our relationship with our neighbors that so much inquiry has to be done before any coherent policy can be formed.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Jun 1, 2021

# ? Jun 1, 2021 13:09

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

It feels like we like we already know this. There was a huge mass of people fleeing Central America due to catastrophic flooding and earthquakes due to climate change, and rampant lawlessness due to corrupt political agents the US has fostered and encouraged for decades, and it all builds a foundation for cheap labor that we've relied on for ever.

# ? Jun 1, 2021 13:15

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

I'm having trouble believing the anti-busing figure of the obama-biden admin, which wanted to keep Haitian wages below 40 cents an hour, really is going to improve the material conditions of these countries but let's hope :shepface:

Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 2, 2021

# ? Jun 2, 2021 17:37

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Y'all ready to hear about some extraordinary cruelty?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...immigrant-kids/

quote:

Gov. Greg Abbott orders Texas child-care regulators to yank licenses of facilities housing immigrant kids

�Unabated influx� of unauthorized immigrant children �threatens to negatively impact� child-care facilities that house foster kids, says Abbott, declaring a disaster and blaming Washington.
---
AUSTIN � Escalating his showdown with President Joe Biden, Gov. Greg Abbott on Tuesday ordered state child-care regulators to yank licenses from facilities that house minors who crossed the state�s southern border without papers and were detained.

Currently, 52 state-licensed general residential operations and child placing agencies in Texas have contracts with the federal Office of Refugee Resettlement to care for undocumented immigrant children. ORR contracts with about 200 facilities in 22 states.

Within three months or so, Abbott�s move apparently would force them to stop serving unaccompanied minors because the facilities must have state licenses to qualify for the federal contracts.

The effects are unclear: Nationwide, there are now about 17,000 unaccompanied children, according to data provided by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. As of May 19, 4,223 of those were being housed in state licensed facilities or child placing agencies in Texas, according to the state Health and Human Services Commission.

Though it�s unclear how many are kept in unlicensed emergency sites � such as the one that just closed in Dallas or the site at Fort Bliss Army base in El Paso that can hold up to 10,000 unaccompanied migrant children and teens � Abbott�s move potentially could force relocation of up to one-fourth of the children nationwide.

Denying the Biden administration use of the state-licensed shelters could force more of the children to be held at U.S. Customs and Border Protection stations � facilities deemed unsuitable for children.

On Wednesday, responding to a query about whether the federal agency would block Abbott�s order, a spokesman said, �HHS�s top priority is the health and safety of the children in our care. We are assessing the Texas directive concerning licensed facilities providing care to unaccompanied children and do not intend to close any facilities as a result of the order.�

In his executive order, Abbott linked recent increases in immigration to the state�s ongoing capacity crisis in foster care.

�The unabated influx of individuals resulting from federal government policies threatens to negatively impact state-licensed residential facilities, including those that serve Texas children in foster care,� the Republican governor says in the order. In it, he accuses the federal government of �commandeering� state resources to cover for its own flubs.

�There are several counties in Texas, more than a dozen counties in Texas, that requested a gubernatorial disaster declaration for the border,� Abbott told The Dallas Morning News Tuesday. �I declared their disaster declaration.�

Former federal child-welfare official Mark Greenberg, though, said Abbott�s move is likely to shrink already-tight capacity in the nation�s makeshift system for caring for the immigrant children.

�This would be a major setback,� said Greenberg, who was a top official of the Administration for Children and Families, which includes the resettlement agency, during former President Barack Obama�s administration.

�It would be enormously disruptive to the providers who have been providing shelter and services to unaccompanied children in Texas for many years, and have substantial expertise and experience from providing those services.�

Leecia Welch, attorney at the National Center for Youth Law, said in a text that closing down all licensed placements in Texas for unaccompanied children will displace about 4,000 children and �add even more chaos to an already chaotic situation. The order could force providers with substantial expertise to leave the state and put many people out of their jobs.

�To me, it seems like political theater that is a lose-lose for Texans and for kids,� she said.

[...]

# ? Jun 3, 2021 01:28

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Been awhile since this thread was updated. Let's see how things are going. From an article from the BBC yday

quote:

At a US border detention centre in the Texan desert, migrant children have been living in alarming conditions - where disease is rampant, food can be dangerous and there are reports of sexual abuse, an investigation by the BBC has found through interviews with staff and children.

In recent months, the US has seen a massive rise in migrants and asylum seekers from Central America. Violence, natural disasters and pandemic-related economic strife are some of the reasons behind the influx, experts say.

Some have also suggested the perception of a more lenient administration under Democrat Joe Biden has contributed to the crisis, though the White House has urged migrants against journeying to the US border.

The tented camp in the Fort Bliss military base in El Paso, Texas, is the temporary home for over 2,000 teenaged children who have crossed the US-Mexico border alone and are now awaiting reunification with family in the US.

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Findings from the BBC's investigation include allegations of sexual abuse, Covid and lice outbreaks, a child waiting hours for medical attention, a lack of clean clothes and hungry children being served undercooked meat.
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The BBC has spoken to camp employees about these conditions and seen photos and video smuggled out by staff.

The Fort Bliss camp consists of at least 12 tents, some of which house hundreds of children at a time. The children spend most of their day in the tents, getting out for an hour or two of recreation, or to line up with hundreds of others for a meal.

Staff told the BBC the food was mostly edible, but a 15-year-old who has now been released said he was fed uncooked meat. "Sometimes the chicken had blood, the meat very red. We couldn't stand our hunger and we ate it, but we got sick from it."

A number of tents have also been set up just to accommodate the large numbers of sick children - the children have nicknamed it 'Covid city'.

"Hundreds of children have tested positive for Covid," said one employee who asked to remain anonymous because staff are banned from speaking about the camp.

In addition to Covid, outbreaks of the flu and strep throat have also been reported since the camp opened in late March.

And some children in need of urgent medical attention have been neglected.

Image from inside one of the camp tents
image captionWhen a child tests positive for Covid, their bed is stripped and they are sent to a Covid tent

In a secret recording of a staff meeting in May given to the BBC, an employee told of a child who was coughing up blood and needed urgent medical care.

"They said 'we are going to send him to lunch'," the employee reported another staff member as saying. "It was a three and a half hour wait to see anybody."

The 15-year-old who spoke to the BBC was released last month after 38 days in detention. He said he caught Covid-19 soon after arriving in the camp, and became severely ill. After he recovered, he was sent back to live in a crowded tent and became ill again.

"When we went to ask for medicine they gave us dirty looks, and they always laughed among themselves," said the boy, who preferred to remain anonymous, of some camp workers.

Children tell of neglect, filth and fear in US camps
"Lice has been rampant," an employee told the BBC. "And one of the major shortages has been lice kits." Staff said a tent of around 800 girls was locked down last month because of lice.

Photos and video smuggled out of the facility by staff and given to the BBC, show rows of flimsy bunks, set inches from each other, extending in long lines through the vast tents.

"I think the crowding is the number one reason that illnesses have spread," said an employee.

Wild sandstorms sweep through the Chihuahuan desert where the camp is set.

"The whole tent starts shaking, some of the tents open up and sand rushes in. You literally have to shield your whole body from sand," said a female employee who also spoke on the condition of anonymity.

"By the end of the day, we are all just covered in dust from head to toe," she added. Staff told the BBC that showers are on offer, but many children don't want to take them because they have no clean clothes to change into.

There is a shortage of underwear, other clothing items and shoes in the camp, according to employees.

"It is heartbreaking to hear their stories and to see them very plainly suffering and to hear the same kinds of complaints over and over again about things that could be corrected so easily," said a staff member.

"After a child has been here for a few days, they say, 'you've got to get me out of here as soon as possible, I just can't stand it anymore,'" he added. "They feel like they are in a prison."

What do the authorities say?
The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), which employs private contractors to help run the camp, says it is committed to transparency, but the BBC was denied access to the camp.

HHS did not respond to the specific allegations of neglect in Fort Bliss uncovered by the BBC, but says in a public statement that it is "providing required standards of care for children such as clean and comfortable sleeping quarters, meals, toiletries, laundry, educational and recreational activities, and access to medical services".

What is Biden doing differently at US border?
Joe Biden's 'big problem' at the US border
What are the reports of sexual abuse?

There are reports of staff sexually abusing children at the Fort Bliss camp. At a camp training session, secretly recorded by a staff member and shared with the BBC, an employee voiced concern.

"We have already caught staff with minors inappropriately," she said.

Another employee told the BBC that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) had spoken to staff about a rape.

"DHS mentioned there was a rape - they are giving the girls pregnancy tests," she said. "And I heard the other night that another contractor was caught in a boys' tent, you know, doing things with him."

What state are the children in?
Many of the children in Fort Bliss become severely depressed, according to staff, who say there are multiple cases of children self-harming.

"I thought that I was not going to get out of there, that I was not going to see my family again," the 15-year-old who spoke to the BBC said, welling up with emotion.

"Sometimes, and at night, we would cry. During the worst time I was nearly at the point of committing suicide," he said.

Image from inside one of the tents
image captionBunks are stacked close together
Staff took risks to speak about and expose the conditions children are being held in at Fort Bliss.

The state of around 12,000 other children in the HHS emergency facilities scattered around the country remains largely unknown.

Why have so many children crossed the border alone?
Over a million migrants have tried to cross into the US this year, according to US Customs and Border Patrol - almost twice as many as last year.

Many adults are deported due to a public health rule put in place in the Trump era. But most children under President Joe Biden have been allowed to stay. These children are mostly coming from Guatemala, Honduras or El Salvador.

Migrant numbers at US border hit new record high
Migrant children crisis: The big picture explained
Is US only country to separate migrant children?
Around 80% of the migrant children who end up in the US alone have relatives in the country, but the system is failing to unite them quickly.

Earlier this year, HHS set up a system of emergency camps - Fort Bliss is one - to relieve overcrowding in facilities run by US Customs and Border Patrol.

Currently, children spend an average of 31 days in the HHS camps, down from 40 days at the beginning of the Biden administration in January.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...5-VnUGH&ampcf=1

Months into the much vaunted shift to HHS control has only resulted in a shift of responsibility to contractors, with a very much non surprising maintaining of suffering for children who are just coming here to have a better life.

Its also important to note that the BBC had to smuggle footage and testimony out of the camp as the HHS and the Biden administration is stopping journalists from investigating the camps properly.

# ? Jun 24, 2021 14:40

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

I couldn't find the source but I recall reading somewhere here on the forums that oversight by lawyers and not media would be sufficient.

That seems to be not the case :eng99:

# ? Jun 24, 2021 22:35

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

There were alot of claims bandied around. That HHS would protect these kids better than the CPB, that Biden has this, that the material conditions would improve on their own, that this was all temporary, etc etc

# ? Jun 25, 2021 01:12

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

we had a thing from attorneys posted that included some fort bliss stuff, but it was in usnews not here

this is a more thorough look at fort bliss and it seems rather worse than that reporting. where the really unpleasant poo poo was at a contractor and the fort bliss reporting was "kids are not provided with the resources they need and are bored and it's terrible for their formative years", which is Bad but not this

"average of 31 days" is also, while technically an improvement, still unacceptable

since pretty early on i've been beating the drum of reducing the length of stay - moderately trash conditions in, say, CBP/ICE camps can be remedied by getting people out within 24 hours

conversely, even mediocre conditions kinda suck if they're in them for 90+ days

edit: articlepost and discussion starts here in usnews https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3965530&pagenumber=410&perpage=40#post515680624

Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jun 25, 2021

# ? Jun 25, 2021 02:00

Slow News Day: Jul 4, 2007

Shageletic posted:

There were alot of claims bandied around. That HHS would protect these kids better than the CPB, that Biden has this, that the material conditions would improve on their own, that this was all temporary, etc etc

The other thing we said was that the administration can only do so much without additional funding from Congress.

# ? Jun 25, 2021 02:13

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Slow News Day posted:

The other thing we said was that the administration can only do so much without additional funding from Congress.

Another thing that came up in USNews is that one of the counterproposals was "well house them with a decent charity", and then that interdenominational church group hosed up catastrophically and it wasn't noticed until, charitably, shortly before the attorneys were due to visit.

uncharitably, they were reviewed because of the pending visit and HHS went "oh poo poo"

# ? Jun 25, 2021 02:15

Fuschia tude: Dec 26, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Another thing that came up in USNews is that one of the counterproposals was "well house them with a decent charity", and then that interdenominational church group hosed up catastrophically and it wasn't noticed until, charitably, shortly before the attorneys were due to visit.

uncharitably, they were reviewed because of the pending visit and HHS went "oh poo poo"

Is that this facility? https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/immigration/article/Questions-continue-about-the-group-housing-16101097.php

Do you have a story with more details?

# ? Jun 25, 2021 07:00

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:09

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Slow News Day posted:

The other thing we said was that the administration can only do so much without additional funding from Congress.

The govt doesnt have to hold these kids in lice infested covid factories. They could just do what what the Obama admin was starting to, release them to their families without putting them in a tent city.

E: Imprisonment is actually much costlier than having a social worker oriented guardianship. A cost argument is new to me. It doesnt make sense to me at all

# ? Jun 25, 2021 15:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US Immigration Policy Megathread

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