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Literally doesn't say what you claim.
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May 17, 2021 05:30
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Samson Option isn't controversial, it's just saying the quiet part out loud (that nuclear weapons are defensive deterrences against actions which existentially threaten a state). Saying this as someone who isn't exactly positive towards Israel, there's far worse things about Israel to criticize.
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May 17, 2021 05:40
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It's not clear to me where the line falls between using nuclear weapons on the nation(s) attacking Israel vs. randomly nuking places out of spite. The part about targeting Europe comes from a military historian, not someone in the Israeli military. Quotes from a poet and a journalist aren't particularly convincing either.Neurolimal posted:Samson Option isn't controversial, it's just saying the quiet part out loud (that nuclear weapons are defensive deterrences against actions which existentially threaten a state). Flannelette posted:Israel's past doctrine is if the US stops protecting them and their military falls to invasion they will launch submarine nuclear missiles at the US/Europe/Mid East's etc cities to take them down with them. That was some time ago I haven't seen any more recent stances on it but there is nothing the US can do to stop them from doing this if they actually intend to so it's safer to just help them + any government that doesn't support Israel will have a hard time being elected either way. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 06:01 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 05:48
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PittTheElder posted:Nah Israel has normalized it's relations with its neighbors for long enough, that would probably rely on political change in neighboring states as well. The Syrian Civil War is essentially over. Assad won largely due to help from Putin. Granted, it's an extremely weak victory. The only thing he has to show for it is that he's been able to maintain power at the cost of destroying his own cities and destroying his own economy. He's the king of a pile of rubble. The Countryside will won't ever be safe and controlled by bandits, ISIS and whatever remaining rebel groups exist.
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May 17, 2021 05:54
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Why does a term like this even need to exist specific to Israel? Mutually-assured destruction, like that described here, applies to all nuclear armed countries. And lmfao at the dude that thinks Israeli doctrine included an outcome that involved nuking the US.
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May 17, 2021 06:22
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Elysiume posted:
They're launching them at the cities of the invaders obviously. The point is they seem to openly say they might use nuclear weapons as a response to a conventional invasion like NK does which is effectively saying you are holding the whole world hostage to prevent such an invasion happening or succeeding.
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May 17, 2021 06:24
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The threat to the US and Europe was the assumption that even a limited nuclear exchange had a strong chance of being misinterpreted as an attack by either the US or Soviet Union and triggering their nuclear response.
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May 17, 2021 06:32
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Yeah having plans like "we will blow up Washington DC if Syria and Egypt beat us in a war" seems like plans that a) the CIA will 100% find out about even if they keep it under wraps b) will make all your potential friends think twice about backing you in peace time.
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May 17, 2021 06:33
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Flannelette posted:They're launching them at the cities of the invaders obviously. The point is they seem to openly say they might use nuclear weapons as a response to a conventional invasion like NK does which is effectively saying you are holding the whole world hostage to prevent such an invasion happening or succeeding. I mean, this is the insinuation of any nuclear armed state. It's why the world has a vested interest in India & Pakistan tensions, and why the US flipped its poo poo at Cuba having missiles stationed despite the fact that Russia could nuke the US from their country. It's why the countries most guilty of foreign intervention are also the greatest advocates of nuclear disarmament. If your state is being existentially threatened, it's in your best interest to make that everyone's problem.
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May 17, 2021 06:34
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Even if it was purely a regional conflict, the deployment of Nuclear Weapons would be absolutely catastrophic. Even if a few of them went of it'd likely cause a mini-nuclear winter.
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May 17, 2021 06:40
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Yeah Israel has never formally had a doctrine worse than MAD. The 'rabid dog' doctrine was just the personal preference of a couple particularly bloodthirsty generals who were only speaking for themselves. If it were official policy we'd know, like how we know Israel has nukes even though they are the only nuclear power to have never signed the non-proliferation treaty or disclosed their armament.
Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 07:12 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 07:08
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droll posted:A typical reply I would expect from the DSA. Statement from DSA: https://www.dsausa.org/statements/dsa-stands-with-palestinians-from-sheikh-jarrah-to-gaza-and-beyond/
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May 17, 2021 07:13
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hobbez posted:Why does a term like this even need to exist specific to Israel? Mutually-assured destruction, like that described here, applies to all nuclear armed countries. That article says as recently as 2008 talking openly about their nuclear weapons could lead to arrest, so maybe it's just a cheeky way to refer to them?
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May 17, 2021 07:34
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Putting this down in text, Infidelicious posted:All they have to do is NOT veto resolutions, IE: 'pushing back' by literally doing nothing. PittTheElder posted:Russia doesn't really give a poo poo either way as far as I can tell? I'm not sure they have any real vested interest there but I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong. Beijing uses chairing role at UN Security Council to press for immediate ceasefire and resumption of dialogue on two-state solution Foreign Minister Wang Yi also urges the US to stop obstructing the council’s role in taking action on the conflict https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dip...pgtype=homepage Maybe Wang Yi is a goon!
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May 17, 2021 08:05
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Yeah Israel has never formally had a doctrine worse than MAD. The US and the CCCP never said the quiet part out loud though, they always said we won't fire nukes until they did first. The Israel, NK, I guess India/Pakistan blackmail tactic of "gee I hope no one invades helpless little us and we have to let off a nuke and start a chain reaction that destroys the world" is not the same as MAD.
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May 17, 2021 09:01
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Flannelette posted:The US and the CCCP never said the quiet part out loud though, they always said we won't fire nukes until they did first. The Israel, NK, I guess India/Pakistan blackmail tactic of "gee I hope no one invades helpless little us and we have to let off a nuke and start a chain reaction that destroys the world" is not the same as MAD. That's not true. 'No first use' is the policy of China and India. The USSR made a no first use pledge in 1982 (nobody believes they were sincere) which Russia rescinded. NATO explicitly rejects no first use. e: pretty much everyone talks in terms of 'minimum credible deterrence', but there's an awful lot of wiggle room on how you define 'minimum', 'credible', and what you are trying to deter. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 09:50 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 09:47
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Thanks for info What I'm trying to say (poorly) is I think there is a difference between saying to a threat "you better not invade me because I have nukes" (MAD) and saying to everyone "you better protect me from invasion because I have nukes".
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May 17, 2021 10:10
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Flannelette posted:The US and the CCCP never said the quiet part out loud though, they always said we won't fire nukes until they did first. The Israel, NK, I guess India/Pakistan blackmail tactic of "gee I hope no one invades helpless little us and we have to let off a nuke and start a chain reaction that destroys the world" is not the same as MAD. Fair point. Israel does not have a no first strike policy, which is worse than MAD, but not quite the 'rabid dog' doctrine. That's my mistake.
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May 17, 2021 10:34
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punishedkissinger posted:Tensions were high due to looming evictions in East Jeruselam and then the Israeli police stormed Al-Aqsa during ramadan, injuring around 300 people with rubber bullets and stun grenades. The reasons for this have not really been explained but it was likely to intentionally stir up conflict for the Bibi to hold his poo poo together. This pissed off palestinians and rockets were launched from Gaza in retaliation and then Israel started levelling apartment complexes with 500kg bombs. Thanks for the summary. And yeah that's the best modern explanation I found as well, although it was hard to figure out because some sources really like to dredge up old history to back up their arguments.
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May 17, 2021 10:54
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Even if it was purely a regional conflict, the deployment of Nuclear Weapons would be absolutely catastrophic. Even if a few of them went of it'd likely cause a mini-nuclear winter. Why would that cause a nuclear winter?
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May 17, 2021 12:46
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looks like some Ultra-Orthodox settlers got themselves killed by overpacking some bleachers that were still being constructed during a ceremony https://www.npr.org/2021/05/16/9973...KD0fk6TX6OETEUE
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May 17, 2021 13:07
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...?outputType=amp The Biden administration has approved the sale of $735 million in precision-guided weapons to Israel, raising red flags for some House Democrats who are part of the shifting debate over the U.S. government’s support for the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
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May 17, 2021 13:54
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/1394260581201371146?s=20 Tony Blinks is a classic foreign policy scumbag, so it seems somehow notable that he's rebuking an Israel narrative
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May 17, 2021 14:04
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Neurolimal posted:https://twitter.com/AP/status/1394260581201371146?s=20 This is funny because the Jerusalem Post was writing yesterday about how the IDF showed Biden their secret evidence and he was completely convinced. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-showed-us-smoking-gun-on-hamas-in-ap-office-tower-officials-say-668303 quote:“We showed them the smoking gun proving Hamas worked out of that building,” a senior diplomatic source said. “I understand they found the explanation satisfactory.” punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 14:08
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah having plans like "we will blow up Washington DC if Syria and Egypt beat us in a war" seems like plans that a) the CIA will 100% find out about even if they keep it under wraps b) will make all your potential friends think twice about backing you in peace time. I have no idea why you'd think this.
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May 17, 2021 14:08
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Madkal posted:I have mentioned it before but it is interesting talking to people of an older generation and today's generation about being Jewish and the relationship with Israel. I have heard that without Israel all Jews all over the world be vulnerable to another Holocaust with no where to go; people want Israel to go away because they want all the Jews dead; Israel will always be villainized regardless of what they do so they should just do what they want anyway (heard that one on the weekend); people around the world are just unhappy that Hamas aren't killing more Jews with their missiles (also heard that one on the weekend) etc. That's classic nationalist rhetoric, deployed by various revanchist entities throughout the 20th century. Declaring the need for a dedicated state for _insert ethnicity here_ for all members of that ethnicity to flee to in order to escape oppression is a typical move, and once they get this state it's often not long before they start oppressing the new minorities in their territory and engaging in aggressive foreign policy against neighbors, using the need to "protect" _insert ethnicity here_ as their excuse as they establish an _ethnicity_ supremacist state with ambitions to expand their territory in pursuit of some Greater _nation_ justified by extremely tenuous historical claims often set in a nationalist mythology. If you sit back and think about it, the idea that Israel is necessary to protect Jews makes no sense. It doesn't protect Jews from expulsion, it gives other countries a place to expel their Jews to - to the point where it has a perverse incentive to facilitate those expulsions to increase its own national manpower and bolster its own military. Similarly, Israel as a sovereign state does not actually have the power to prevent pogroms or combat anti-Semitism in other countries. And if the United States decides it wants to engage in a second Holocaust and kill every Jew on the planet, you'd probably have a better chance of surviving that in France or Russia; just "being a state" alone isn't going to keep the US military away. Other countries being unwilling to take refugees from a potential internal genocide is certainly an issue, true. But considering the global refugee crisis that's been happening the past few years, it's hardly a problem that's unique to Jews. And in fact Israel has done more than its part to contribute to that problem - the creation and expansion of Israel created millions of refugees, and Israel has not only refused to allow those refugees to return but also actively worked to prevent the creation of a dedicated country for Palestinians that might take those refugees. If you read that page carefully, you'll see that all the sources in any position to actually know what they're talking about only refer to the "Samson Option" as a plan to nuke whoever's attacking them in war. The idea of an Israeli plan to destroy the world by nuking every other country, on the other hand, comes from random hyper-nationalist nobodies with no connection to the Israeli government or military, describing their own personal opinion for what Israel should do in opinion pieces and lectures. Considering the severity of the accusation, that's the sort of thing I'd want much better sourcing on.
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May 17, 2021 14:26
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Yeah I was just linking what the Samson Option was, but the reports about them nuking other allied countries was always just rumor
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May 17, 2021 15:08
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah I was just linking what the Samson Option was, but the reports about them nuking other allied countries was always just rumor Well, it's real loving dumb and you should probably stop repeating it without some sort of source.
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May 17, 2021 15:38
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Smeef posted:Beijing uses chairing role at UN Security Council to press for immediate ceasefire and resumption of dialogue on two-state solution This. Anyone claiming that China or Russia would just pick up after America ignores how little they give a poo poo about Israel and what a small player it ultimately is in their view. What America has been doing (and is doing now) is actually self-harming as far as international relations are considered and is not based on getting something logical out of it, but on having the second-largest Jewish population in the world and kowtowing to rural evangelicals because of their outsized influence. It's just not something that other countries are willing to engage in, because they don't have those internal factors. Sorry America, this one is on you.
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May 17, 2021 15:39
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https://twitter.com/tomgara/status/1394276465966030852?s=20
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May 17, 2021 15:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why would that cause a nuclear winter? If you nuked a city, it'd burn and all of the ash would go into the atmosphere blocking the sun. Even if it was a limited engagement, there would be global warming. Here's a whole report on it - NUCLEAR FAMINE:A BILLION PEOPLE AT RISK
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May 17, 2021 17:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:If you nuked a city, it'd burn and all of the ash would go into the atmosphere blocking the sun. Even if it was a limited engagement, there would be global warming. In reality the entire concept of nuclear winter is actually questionable. Modern cities aren't as flammable as historical ones. Dresden burned in a firestorm in WW2, but other cities with more modern construction failed to generate firestorms despite deliberate efforts to cause them. That report looks comically sketchy at best.
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May 17, 2021 21:33
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"Modern cities aren't as flammable as historical ones" seems like a very dubious claim to me. Populations are way higher these days, and tons of wooden houses in the US especially. Or insulation material that might burn.
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May 17, 2021 22:44
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It's a bit irrelevant anyway because the most obvious high risk scenario for Israel deciding to use nukes doesn't involve them targeting cities at all.
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May 17, 2021 22:51
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Fame Douglas posted:"Modern cities aren't as flammable as historical ones" seems like a very dubious claim to me. Populations are way higher these days, and tons of wooden houses in the US especially. Or insulation material that might burn. Well, US cities aren't as flammable because of excessive suburban sprawl. This is immaterial though. Nuclear war is horrible because of the death and devastation. "Nuclear winter" type events have only ever been observed from volcanic eruptions as far as I know, not ground fires. I don't really want to continue this conversation in this thread as this is way too derailed, and bad things are happening. Smiling Demon fucked around with this message at 23:59 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 22:54
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https://twitter.com/Francescorocca/status/1394364393866006528?s=20 https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1394391456731877381?s=20 Also destroyed the only covid testing lab in the region: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/17/israel-gaza-conflict-latest-update/ quote:Israeli jets also destroyed a mattress factory in northern Gaza shortly after dawn. Video circulating on social media showed plumes of black smoke pouring from the facility. An airstrike Monday on a building in central Gaza City damaged the nearby al-Rimal Clinic, which housed Gaza’s only coronavirus testing lab, according to Palestinian media. https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1394346475014995969?s=20 This is hosed.
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May 17, 2021 23:48
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so whats actually still going on? are rockets still getting fired? is the IDF actively marching through gaza?
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May 17, 2021 23:53
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MightyBigMinus posted:so whats actually still going on? are rockets still getting fired? is the IDF actively marching through gaza? The rocket tempo was down a bit, but then came back up after Israel took out a head Hamas guy, apparently. IDF bombing is very active. The IDF hasn't entered Gaza on the ground and at this point I'd be surprised if they did.
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May 18, 2021 00:05
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Fame Douglas posted:"Modern cities aren't as flammable as historical ones" seems like a very dubious claim to me. Populations are way higher these days, and tons of wooden houses in the US especially. Or insulation material that might burn.  This isn't per capita as far as I could tell
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May 18, 2021 00:14
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Count Roland posted:The rocket tempo was down a bit, but then came back up after Israel took out a head Hamas guy, apparently. Top Hamas leadership had gone underground before the bombings started.
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May 18, 2021 00:25
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