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I realized I've been thinking about those switches like they were outlets, to a degree. Very carefully using my non-contact voltage tester, I was able to verify that the line comes in from cloth wire pair #1 into the top right of the dual switches. The bottom right of the dual switch feeds power over to the toggle switch on the right. I think the setup looks something like this: Is it possible that someone used two pieces of 12/2 to act like 12/3, and that's why the extra previously-uncapped neutral was just hanging out there, where wire pair 3 and pair 4 go out to the fan? Maybe whoever wired this used the helpful ground wire as a neutral on the switch to the overhead light instead of that extra uncapped neutral? I think I'm still inclined to try and get an electrician to handle this, but it was really bothering me that I couldn't figure out what was happening with the wiring. Edit: To clarify one thing that I guess I never made clear: the overhead light and the fan are a single unit, but they are switched separately so they can operate independently. I assume that means that the spots for wiring them on the unit itself are probably all right next to each other. Danhenge fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 17, 2021 |
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May 17, 2021 19:01
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We just ordered an electric convection oven for our house. I found the product manual and install instructions online and it requires a dedicated 240V 50A circuit. Our house has a 100A panel, so how does that work out. Is that using a significant amount of our capacity, or is this 'fine' without upgrading the main? I need to check the water heater, AC, dryer/etc: is it as simple as just adding them up (assuming all running at the same time) and seeing how close they get us to 100 amps? Neighbors are running 40A ovens on 30A circuits but i'd like to not just copy bad practices (kitchen currently has 30A plug).
PageMaster fucked around with this message at 06:41 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 05:49
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To make a long story short, it's not as simple as adding everything up and you are almost certainly 'fine' as long as you put in a proper 240V 50A circuit to feed it. You absolutely don't want to copy what your neighbors are doing, that's a much less okay version of 'fine' but at least it'll trip their breaker before it burns down their house.
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May 18, 2021 06:02
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PageMaster posted:We just ordered an electric convection oven for our house. I found the product manual and install instructions online and it requires a dedicated 240V 50A circuit. Our house has a 100A panel, so how does that work out. Is that using a significant amount of our capacity, or is this 'fine' without upgrading the main? I need to check the water heater, AC, dryer/etc: is it as simple as just adding them up (assuming all running at the same time) and seeing how close they get us to 100 amps? Neighbors are running 40A ovens on 30A circuits buy if like to not just copy bad practices (kitchen currently has 30A plug). Convection ovens pull their full load on startup instantly to get their coils up to temperature. You really don't want to burn down your house trying to save $100 in copper and breaker between a 30a circuit and a 50a circuit. Do it right or cancel your order. They make 30a convection ovens I presume.
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May 18, 2021 06:15
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H110Hawk posted:Convection ovens pull their full load on startup instantly to get their coils up to temperature. You really don't want to burn down your house trying to save $100 in copper and breaker between a 30a circuit and a 50a circuit. Do it right or cancel your order. They make 30a convection ovens I presume. Thanks, I guess my more specific question was whether this was going to be a problem due to our panel size. From what you said, I'm thinking probably not since we're not actually pulling 50A continuously, but will be some lesser load for most of its use?
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May 18, 2021 06:31
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PageMaster posted:Thanks, I guess my more specific question was whether this was going to be a problem due to our panel size. From what you said, I'm thinking probably not since we're not actually pulling 50A continuously, but will be some lesser load for most of its use? Not enough information to know. If you're, for example, using electric baseboard heaters I bet this is fine all summer long but it's gonna be a rough winter. Or you can't run your electric dryer at the same time. Or maybe your water heater and microwave. Panels can absolutely be oversubscribed, but when you're talking 100 amps in a modern home things may start getting tight.
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May 18, 2021 06:40
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Motronic posted:Not enough information to know. We have a gas water heater so that helps, but electric dryer which doesn't. I haven't done panel load calculations in 18 years so I'll talk with an electrician for a better idea. PageMaster fucked around with this message at 06:51 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 06:48
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edit: removed unclear midnight post
ROJO fucked around with this message at 14:37 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 07:33
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Don't use the overcurrent device's ampacity to determine load FFS, use the rated wattage of the appliance. Google "free NEC" and use the load calculation guide to determine if you need to upgrade your service. E: Going from a normal oven to a convection oven is not going to overload your service unless you're borderline as gently caress. OP, I wouldn't worry about it unless you have electric heat and/or EV charging, q "50A" oven and a "30A" dryer is not 80A of your available 100, it's the combined wattage of the two devices, divided by voltage, of 24,000, you don't use the .8 derating factor in this case since both intermittently cycle their heating elements, and you're probably not drying clothes for 4 straight hours. You're on the right path of sitting down with your electrician and doing the load calcs. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 07:45 on May 18, 2021 |
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May 18, 2021 07:38
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I have a concrete wall that I am cutting a door into. Well, that a contractor is ideally cutting a wall into but contractors around here do not seem to have much interest in such small jobs, so it may end up my first door. Trouble is, there are some cables embedded into this wall. Can I just re-route them under the door? Is there some best practice I should follow?  Blue is existing cable location, red is new cable location. Everything is concrete - wall, ceiling, floor. I'll need to add a cable segment in between since the new route is longer, which does not make me super happy. Then again, I do not really see a way around it. Does this make sense? What is my best option here? If one of the cable joins gets hosed up over time due to bad karma, building shifting or excessive cat piss, what's the best way to ensure I have access to it later on?
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May 18, 2021 19:57
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What kind of "cable"?
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May 18, 2021 20:11
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Is this in the US? Any splices you make have to be in an approved enclosure (box) and remain accessible. You are talking about power cables, right? Is this in a living area? How much does appearance matter? Is that a solid concrete wall or block? A surface mount raceway like EMT or wiremould might be your best bets here.
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May 18, 2021 20:12
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Power cables embedded into a concrete wall and running inside it? Is that really a thing? Like did they bury conduit when they poured?
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May 18, 2021 20:19
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If it’s low voltage like coax, ethernet, or telephone, splice away. If it’s line voltage you should probably hire an electrician to unfuck it, because there are so many ways that could be a mess given the information we have right now.
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May 18, 2021 20:27
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This is power and Ethernet cables. Block wall might be the righ terminology to use here, yes - there are blocks inside and a finger-thick layer of some mix to even it out, there is conduit embedded into this mix, with occasional cavities drilled into the wall for the sockets/switches. This is based on what I found during unrelated work on neighboring walls - I intend to do some exploratory surgery in the near future to make sure where exactly the cables are in this particular wall. Glorious Eastern Europe here, so if there are written rules, nobody has read them since they were written and the only inspector I need to satisfy is myself. For splices, I am thinking a box on either side of the door might be suitably accessible - the walls to the side of the door will be more or less hidden behind furniture, so that might work out well visually.
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May 18, 2021 20:50
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Plastic boxes are not allowed to protrude from the wall/be exposed, right? I'm trying to unfuck yet another badly overloaded junction box, this time in the garage where the wall isn't deep enough for a plastic switch box. They left the Romex way too short for me to just move the box and pulling a new run for it is not going to happen at this point. If metal is allowed to surface mount or protrude, is there a type of box that'll accept a duplex receptacle? I have some 4" squares but I'm not really getting how to mount a yoke to them. Also, do I need to put any bushings on the openings to protect this Romex?
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May 19, 2021 19:15
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A plastic box protruding a little isn't a problem, if you want a receptacle in a surface mount 4 square that's easy too, just use this cover.
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May 19, 2021 19:28
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Elviscat posted:A plastic box protruding a little isn't a problem, if you want a receptacle in a surface mount 4 square that's easy too, just use this cover. That will work, thanks! It would be more than just a little, the space is only 1.5" deep
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May 19, 2021 19:33
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If it's a 1.5" deep a mud ring and a regular cover might get you flush with the surface and look a little cleaner.
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May 19, 2021 19:42
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BonerGhost posted:badly overloaded junction box, this time in the garage where the wall isn't deep enough for a plastic switch box. Sounds like you have a plan, but going to throw these out there for wire fill/ shallow spaces. Pretty sure they make them in "nail-on" but I assume you are cutting in a box. https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lighting-and-electrical/boxes-fittings-and-conduit/boxes/3296688 I've never used them and can't vouch for them, but they might work in a pinch. When the wires are too short like your case they might not help as any wirenuts or other connectors will be right behind where the device mounts anyway, and you'd be better off w/ a 4" shallow metal box/ring as posted. edit: my link is for 2" deep boxes, nm Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 21:00
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Blackbeer posted:Sounds like you have a plan, but going to throw these out there for wire fill/ shallow spaces. Pretty sure they make them in "nail-on" but I assume you are cutting in a box. https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lighting-and-electrical/boxes-fittings-and-conduit/boxes/3296688 Funny you posted this, I did use this on a too-shallow interior wall last summer and it worked great. Fun fact, they actually open up so you don't have to do contortionist bullshit with your fingers and the wires! (I did not learn this until this week when I saw a new work version and thought, "huh why's it got that flange?" and a lightbulb went off.)
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May 20, 2021 05:34
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They're good for walls that are built with the studs on-edge
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May 20, 2021 06:03
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NYC, how long until my father kills himself via electrical fire. I just got a call from my father. He wanted me to buy an SL 20 amp fuse, since the fuse for the AC blew. I do that. I come home and I notice all the other fuses in the box are also SL 20 amp fuses. The busted fuse is missing. The Sl 20 amp fuse I bought does not fit the empty socket, its loose. The fuse socket is too big. My father has the blown fuse on the dining room table. The blown fuse is... a type S 15 amp. It also has the fuse socket torn out stuck around it.  My father then proceeds to simply unscrew the 15 amp fuse out of the torn out socket, and then screw in my 20 amp fuse.... and then he walks over and shoves the new assembly (SL 20 amp fuse+ torn fuse socket) into the fuse box. The AC turns on immediately. Is this bad? How bad is this? Edit; The torn out socket may be a converter, but that still means the type and amps changed and I dont know enough about lighting to say if thats ok. Gaj fucked around with this message at 19:39 on May 20, 2021 |
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May 20, 2021 19:24
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May 20, 2021 19:49
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The adapter thing may or may not be a problem, but the 20 amp fuse in a 15 amp circuit is absolutely a problem. 10 out of 10. If the wire is only rated for 15 amps there's a huge fire risk because the fuse might not trip until it's too late. Fuse (or breaker) has to match the capacity of the wire.
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May 20, 2021 20:21
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That's bad because: 1: He didn't shut off house power before removing/inserting fuses which will cause arcing and ruin the contacts and/or start a fire 2: Hes up amping and has the capacity to run more current through the wires than they support and start a fire 3: The fuse socket should absolutely not come out. Meaning it's barely being held in there and will come loose and arc/catch fire eventually Basically  Edit: if it's truly an adapter that's fine but it should be screwed in, not jammed in. Also, if you need a whole lot of proper sized fuses I just replaced my fuse panel with a breaker and I will mail you all my fuses for the cost of shipping. PM me if interested. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 20, 2021 |
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May 20, 2021 20:22
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And if the AC is blowing the fuses try replacing the start/run cap, assuming it's central and not a window unit.
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May 20, 2021 20:54
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Ugh the building super is stoned. 1338 apartments and he doesnt know off hand what the standard fuse amps are. Also said its ok to go over amps for "high btu ac units" ok. Im also not entirely sure if my father is giving me facts....he kept mistaking the blue 15 amp for the orange 20 amp...so I dont even know if the original fuse was 15 or 20 because hes confused himself. Fantastic.
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May 20, 2021 21:11
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Is it not written anywhere on the panel? It should be. You could also take the cover panel off and physically look at the wires. Although for the love of god flip the main disconnect before messing with it at all and be careful.
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May 20, 2021 23:18
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Labels, switch? This my unit, parents unit just has 2 more slots.  Though there is a "Union Made" sticker so I guess its somewhat better.
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May 21, 2021 02:02
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Gaj posted:Labels, switch? This my unit, parents unit just has 2 more slots. Has your dad considered moving? That must be subpanel or something. There should be a main switch and main fuse, or something. I'd pop that cover off and investigate but I can understand why you might not want to.
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May 21, 2021 02:15
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Gaj posted:Labels, switch? This my unit, parents unit just has 2 more slots. The labels are clear enough to me! There's a 1, 2, 3 (L), and 4 (AC). What more do you want to know? How do your parents get insurance? fyi these are a thing, which would at least prevent having to interact with the innards
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May 21, 2021 02:23
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The screw in breakers are great, my house subpanel is all fuses, which the PO had "helpfully" replaced with all 30A. As soon as I replaced them all with 15A, one of them kept blowing, and once I mapped out the circuits it turned out that all 3 bedrooms, on bath, the one outdoor outlet and the laundry were one circuit. So now I do my best not to say, run a sanitize cycle which uses a heater while I'm vacuuming, but when I forget I press a button rather than replacing a fuse or burning the house down.
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May 21, 2021 02:32
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Can anyone explain this breaker to me? I get that it's AFCI, what I don't understand is why it's a double pole breaker for two circuits, with the only connection between the two being the bar that connects the two switches? FISHMANPET fucked around with this message at 04:03 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 03:59
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This is just a guess because IANAE, but I think that's being used as a multiwire branch circuit where both circuits return on the same neutral. They have to be on different split phases because if they weren't the neutral would be overloaded with double the current. Here's a video that explains https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qynp92rIlYg SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 04:28 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 04:05
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SpartanIvy posted:This is just a guess because IANAE, but I think that's being used as a multiwire branch circuit where both circuits return on the same neutral. They have to be on different split phases because if they weren't the neutral would be overloaded with double the current. The bar tying the two breakers together is not needed but doesn't really hurt either. If you are sharing the neutral the bar is absolutely needed. Otherwise one side could open and the other leg would still be feeding power to the neutral. I assume that's a serious case of "on the truck" given it's combo 240v cafci. Spendy breaker.
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May 21, 2021 04:21
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H110Hawk posted:If you are sharing the neutral the bar is absolutely needed. Otherwise one side could open and the other leg would still be feeding power to the neutral. You're absolutely right. This is why IANAE! 
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May 21, 2021 04:27
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H110Hawk posted:If you are sharing the neutral the bar is absolutely needed. Otherwise one side could open and the other leg would still be feeding power to the neutral. It also appears to be a 15A feeding 12/3, including for a bathroom, which is... a choice.
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May 21, 2021 06:00
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Last post, just to show how irregular my building's electrical is. This is my friends fusebox, different building but same complex. Her apartment is supposed to be a mirror of my parents, but her box is completely different. I figure this would get a chuckle on reflection. 
Gaj fucked around with this message at 07:25 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 07:23
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Elviscat posted:It also appears to be a 15A feeding 12/3, including for a bathroom, which is... a choice. That's way thicker wire than is needed for just 15 amp, right? I spent time last night trying to map circuits to fixtures, and I discovered that in my 2 story 1288 sqft house, that breaker controls all the lights and outlets on the second floor (with the exception of the bathroom GFCI) plus most of the overhead lights on the main floor. Is it a thing for an electrician to come in and just do a deep dive on all the wiring and everything in the house? No changes, just discovery. Because I have no idea what's going on, and I've got older wiring (cloth wrapped) but maybe it's all super thick. There are way more 20 amp breakers in the panel than seem normal, not sure of that means thicker wire everywhere or dangerously overloaded breakers. And I'd like to get some advice on capacity of the system (amps and breaker spots) as I've got a 100 amp service panel with only 16 breaker spots and a desire to install some new circuits and electric appliances.
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May 21, 2021 13:14
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