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lilljonas posted:Israel. Israel never changes. A nuclear winter sounds pretty good right about now 
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May 21, 2021 15:36
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Stay the gently caress out of their mosques Israel this isn’t difficult.
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May 21, 2021 15:58
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:95% of water in gaza is unfit for human consumption. So by bombing the water supplies the Palestinians must buy the water from Israel. Just water? Also electricity. If they could bomb Gaza's oxygen they would do it too. In West Bank they already collect the taxes as well and withhold them at will. MiLiTAry OcCuPation
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May 21, 2021 16:30
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:95% of water in gaza is unfit for human consumption. So by bombing the water supplies the Palestinians must buy the water from Israel. As a reminder Ramallah gets more rain than London. But most of their water is taken by Israel.
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May 21, 2021 18:04
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Orange Devil posted:Hmm yes violence in the service of enacting apartheid, settler colonialism and genocide is the same as violence in the service of defending yourself from those things. Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified.
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May 21, 2021 18:15
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. i'm pretty sure israel is aiming at hospitals, residential areas, and water treatment with precision bombs.
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May 21, 2021 18:28
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. why can't the palestianians just shut up and die like civilized people?!?! it's so hosed up that they are responding by resorting to terrorism. the same way every single culture has responded to a powerful country occupying them.
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May 21, 2021 18:54
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. One country has been military occupying and blockading the other for decades, and using civilians to actively destroy the other's contiguity and existence for decades. What would you consider acceptable action on the part of Hamas?
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May 21, 2021 18:56
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If you think about it, every slave rebellion was actually bad. Taking people's property outside the legal system? I think you'll find there were bad people on both sides.
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May 21, 2021 19:13
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Jaxyon posted:As a reminder Ramallah gets more rain than London. But most of their water is taken by Israel. I had to look this up to believe it, and yeah this seems accurate. Definitely wouldn't have guessed that.
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May 21, 2021 19:25
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. Agreed, the Irgun should of been arrested and put in Jail by the British in Mandatory Palestine. Frankly the fact they were allowed to get away with close to 500 terrorist murders, many of whom were civilians, is astonishing. What's even worse is the plaques put up to commemorate their atrocities.
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May 21, 2021 19:29
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Drone_Fragger posted:Agreed, the Irgun should of been arrested and put in Jail by the British in Mandatory Palestine. Frankly the fact they were allowed to get away with close to 500 terrorist murders, many of whom were civilians, is astonishing. What's even worse is the plaques put up to commemorate their atrocities. Agreed that the Irgun were terrorists. I'm kind of surprised though at the defense and justification for Hamas here though. Are goons longing for the days of bus bombings too?
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May 21, 2021 20:41
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Madkal posted:Agreed that the Irgun were terrorists. I'm kind of surprised though at the defense and justification for Hamas here though. Are goons longing for the days of bus bombings too? Hamas is what happens when you occupy a country and ethnic cleanse them. They're not good, theyre a consequence of colonialism.
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May 21, 2021 20:43
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If there was no militant action by Hamas in the last two weeks, there would have been exactly no meaningful (to the powers that be) defense of the Palestinians of East Jerusalem being evicted from their neighborhood by a society opposed to their continued existence there or anywhere, by anyone, period. Or any meaningful consequences for the encroachment on al-Aqsa. If Fatah had teeth, I would prefer them (as an outsider with no skin in the game) over Hamas, but Fatah hasn't any teeth, sorry.
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May 21, 2021 20:47
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Madkal posted:Agreed that the Irgun were terrorists. I'm kind of surprised though at the defense and justification for Hamas here though. Are goons longing for the days of bus bombings too? Hamas doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's good that leftist circles of discussion are embracing and selling the holistic view of the oppression and apartheid of the Israeli state, and not getting bogged down by "But do you condemn Hamas??"
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May 21, 2021 20:48
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Ham posted:Hamas doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's good that leftist circles of discussion are embracing and selling the holistic view of the oppression and apartheid of the Israeli state, and not getting bogged down by "But do you condemn Hamas??" By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified, and because Hamas is targeting civilians every civilian death will be justified too
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May 21, 2021 20:51
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. It is though. Hamas is shooting rockets randomly at cities, like shooting into a crowd with a shotgun, how can you justify that? Meanwhile the IDF is conducting war as mercifully as possible using precision weapons, more akin to headshotting individual children using a sniper rifle.
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May 21, 2021 20:51
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Madkal posted:By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified Um, what? That's a pretty insane leap of logic from what Ham said. "Doesn't exist in a vacuum" is not the same as "anything goes, nothing matters"
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May 21, 2021 20:58
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Madkal posted:Unlike your aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations my aimlessly firing missiles at civilian populations if fully justified. It actually is justified when one side is trying to genocide the other.
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May 21, 2021 21:03
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Madkal posted:By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified, and because Hamas is targeting civilians every civilian death will be justified too Israeli society in the aggregate has no problem justifying the continued oppression, apartheid and ethnic cleansing of the native population - it's much more worthy of your indignation than Hamas firing rockets with minimal effect to human lives as compared to Israeli "surgical" bombing and sniping.
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May 21, 2021 21:06
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Madkal posted:By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified, and because Hamas is targeting civilians every civilian death will be justified too Please outline, specifically, the path of action Hamas should take to end the occupation and other assorted crimes against humanity perpetrated against their people. Keep in mind that "lie down and die without inconveniencing anyone" is not an acceptable answer.
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May 21, 2021 21:16
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I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians.
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May 21, 2021 21:18
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Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. Probably the best option available to them, but I'm sure they'll appreciate your input
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May 21, 2021 21:21
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Using the only military force they've managed to accrue in the only way possible to use it. when all other avenues have been shut off from them is better than not doing anything at all, yes.
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May 21, 2021 21:22
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Madkal posted:By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified, and because Hamas is targeting civilians every civilian death will be justified too This is a neat rhetorical trick to deflect from the fact that out of two groups doing harm, one of them is slowly succeeding in wiping the other off the map while pretending it has no other option to resolve conflict. Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. Likewise, let us consider whether or not apartheid and genocide is the best option available to Israel.
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May 21, 2021 21:22
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Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. People aren't trying to justify or moralize the killing of Israeli civilians - what they're doing is apportioning blame for all the deaths and suffering in this 73 year period, leading up to the present condition, to the correct party - the same party that perpetuates the occupation and apartheid and massacres hundreds of civilians every few years for daring to exist.
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May 21, 2021 21:25
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Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. How much is the IDF paying nowadays out of curiosity?
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May 21, 2021 21:30
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Nobody here wants civilians to die, but they are interested in seeing blame correctly apportioned.
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May 21, 2021 21:45
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Madkal posted:By all means but then you have to admit that all actions are justified, and because Hamas is targeting civilians every civilian death will be justified too If someone fires a gun at you, you're not just allowed to blow up a crowded neighborhood in response.
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May 21, 2021 21:53
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progressive zionists, no longer able to reconcile the increasingly obvious incompatibility between the two ideologies, are now advocating openly for Cowardice
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May 21, 2021 21:56
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Also, isn't this kind of an arugment for Hamas having the same kind of JDAMS and other hitech weaponry Israel does? So their attacks can be more tightly targeted and directed away from civilian populations?
Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 21:56
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Herstory Begins Now posted:If someone fires a gun at you, you're not just allowed to blow up a crowded neighborhood in response. This works both ways. Israel is absolutely not in the right and neither are Hamas. At least that's the way I see it but apparently that makes me a paid IDF person or something. As for what Hamas can do, they can always take a play from MK, the military arm of the ANC who preferred sabotage and such to murder. Or promote civil disobedience, general strikes etc. Or just try kill a whole bunch of Israelis I guess.
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May 21, 2021 22:00
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one side uses white phosphorous in areas where children play
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May 21, 2021 22:00
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Madkal posted:This works both ways. Israel is absolutely not in the right and neither are Hamas. At least that's the way I see it but apparently that makes me a paid IDF person or something. Interesting example because Mandela specifically did not denounce violence and had to do like an extra decade on Robben Island because of that refusal E: ok I checked and it was like 5 years extra and he had been moved from Robben Island to another prison by then, but nevertheless E2: Zulily Zoetrope posted:"Best" is a relative term; it doesn't mean "good" or even "not terrible," it just means "preferable to any alternative." Yeah, in negotiationspeak this would be the BATNA - best alternative to a negotiated agreement Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 22:10 on May 21, 2021 |
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May 21, 2021 22:03
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Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. It's pretty pointless to argue if something is "the best option" when there have been no other options presented. They can't make their case at the ballot box because a) Fatah cancelled elections in the Palestinian Authority again & b) it doesn't have any say in the government of the country that is blockading Gaza. They can & do appeal to the international community but that makes no difference. If they were to reclaim arable land confiscated by Israel to create a buffer around the border there'd be bloodshed. They can't enact a massive public works programme to ameliorate the massive unemployment levels because the blockade means they simply do not have the resources available to build power stations, water treatment facilities, hospitals, schools, not to mention rebuilding the airport or constructing the seaport they were supposed to be allowed to build under the Oslo Accords. How are they to build homes for the 1.3m living in Gazan refugee camps? It's lashing out in desperation. Whether it is right or moral is so far beyond the point as to be irrelevant. It's whatabouttery, obfuscation. Desperate people turn to desperate measures because at they end of the day they are fighting for their lives. Ultimately the onus to end oppression is, oddly enough, always on the oppressor.
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May 21, 2021 22:03
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Madkal posted:I'll try think of what Hamas should do besides killing civilians when I get home but can I ask if people really think Hamas best option is to kill civilians. "Best" is a relative term; it doesn't mean "good" or even "not terrible," it just means "preferable to any alternative." I do understand where your objection is coming from; I had the same thought until I started actually looking into the situation myself and had to agree that they have literally no other options besides making less or no effort to fight the occupation, which is ultimately choosing more civilian killings.
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May 21, 2021 22:04
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Madkal posted:This works both ways. Israel is absolutely not in the right and neither are Hamas. At least that's the way I see it but apparently that makes me a paid IDF person or something. The IDF HQ is in Tel Aviv. Thusly, by the logic Israel uses for its own targeting, Hamas is firing at a military target.
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May 21, 2021 22:21
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Madkal posted:This works both ways. Israel is absolutely not in the right and neither are Hamas. At least that's the way I see it but apparently that makes me a paid IDF person or something. Interesting you bring up uMkhonoto we Sizwe. According to South African police, between 1976 & 1986 MK were responsible for 100 civilian deaths, plus 30 more from various South African security agencies. Wikipedia keeps an updated list of the fatalities from Gazan rocket attacks. So, 2021, 10. 2020, 0. 2019, 3. 2018, 0. 2017, 0. 2016, 0. 2015, 0. 2014, 8. 2013, 0. 2012, 6. 2011, 3. Which is to say that MK killed more people than were killed by rocket attacks from Gaza by Hamas, Islamic Jihad & anyone else in a similar period of time.
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May 21, 2021 22:22
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forkboy84 posted:Interesting you bring up uMkhonoto we Sizwe. According to South African police, between 1976 & 1986 MK were responsible for 100 civilian deaths, plus 30 more from various South African security agencies. Wikipedia keeps an updated list of the fatalities from Gazan rocket attacks. So, 2021, 10. 2020, 0. 2019, 3. 2018, 0. 2017, 0. 2016, 0. 2015, 0. 2014, 8. 2013, 0. 2012, 6. 2011, 3. Which is to say that MK killed more people than were killed by rocket attacks from Gaza by Hamas, Islamic Jihad & anyone else in a similar period of time. Yea going through wiki now and seeing a whole bunch of bombings and such. I just remember reading the start of MK about how they went the more civil disobedience route and the 80s when there was a lot of internal fighting and violence.
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May 21, 2021 22:28
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Madkal posted:Yea going through wiki now and seeing a whole bunch of bombings and such. I just remember reading the start of MK about how they went the more civil disobedience route and the 80s when there was a lot of internal fighting and violence. So it's fair to say we should ignore you when you make these kind of posts, then
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May 21, 2021 22:40
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