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Megazver posted:I haven't had the chance to play it at a high level yet, but from what I hear, they're pretty balanced for the most part. All the classes don't develop along the exact same structure like pre-Essentials 4e, but to me having variety in that is a plus. In terms of damage effectiveness the martials definitely do really well, so that's not my problem, just many of the martial classes' high level options are really boring. Also, a lot is made by the PF2e community about how the attack penalty forces you to do things other than just attack and how just attacking is ineffective, but my party's martial characters had better luck with just attacking repeatedly (especially since most of the extra combat options that aren't attacking are Charisma-based).
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May 22, 2021 16:12
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PF2 takes some elements from 4e, but is very much an evolution of it. I’ve never had the combats take as long as 4es early stuff could. It’s to be commended for being an RPG you can actually play at high level/experience and the gameplay is still challenging and fun. If you want a crunchy tactical RPG, it’s probably the best on the market.
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May 22, 2021 16:22
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Zarick posted:In terms of damage effectiveness the martials definitely do really well, so that's not my problem, just many of the martial classes' high level options are really boring. It depends, there are funky high level options in there, fighters getting an extra reaction on every creatures turn sorta sounds boring, but it’s actually incredible and just lets you punish the opposition. Monks get to go Super Saiyan, Rangers get six attacks, Barbarians can stomp for earthquakes. They all play into the power fantasy of the class. Zarick posted:Also, a lot is made by the PF2e community about how the attack penalty forces you to do things other than just attack and how just attacking is ineffective, but my party's martial characters had better luck with just attacking repeatedly (especially since most of the extra combat options that aren't attacking are Charisma-based). The big trick in PF2 is that you need to find useful things you can do on a third action. Raise a Shield is great but even using your third action to stride away from a melee opponent can be worth it for some martials. I’d wholeheartedly recommend the Free Archetype rule as that’s great for grabbing an extra trick or two without having to agonise over giving up lots of your class feats.
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May 22, 2021 16:34
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Let me be entirely clear here: Free Archetype is a game-changer, should have been baseline, and will be a staple of every campaign I run from here on out. It's not about the power spike, it's about interesting build diversity and letting people take niche options while still being competent.
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May 22, 2021 16:38
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Toshimo posted:Let me be entirely clear here: Free Archetype is a game-changer, should have been baseline, and will be a staple of every campaign I run from here on out. It's not about the power spike, it's about interesting build diversity and letting people take niche options while still being competent. The Strength of Thousands adventure path, set in the Magaambya magical academy is almost certainly going to have Free Archetype as the default assumption from what they have said. Every character in the academy having some magic just makes sense as they are all meant to be students.
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May 22, 2021 16:43
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HidaO-Win posted:It depends, there are funky high level options in there, fighters getting an extra reaction on every creatures turn sorta sounds boring, but it’s actually incredible and just lets you punish the opposition. Monks get to go Super Saiyan, Rangers get six attacks, Barbarians can stomp for earthquakes. They all play into the power fantasy of the class. Two of those big powers are just "attack more". Monks and barbarians do make out better in interesting powers than other martials, I will admit that.
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May 22, 2021 16:47
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HidaO-Win posted:It depends, there are funky high level options in there, fighters getting an extra reaction on every creatures turn sorta sounds boring, but it’s actually incredible and just lets you punish the opposition. Monks get to go Super Saiyan, Rangers get six attacks, Barbarians can stomp for earthquakes. They all play into the power fantasy of the class. My favorite high level barbarian thing is "When you rage everyone gets the buffs" turning you from a damage lord to a front line Leader. And yeah poo poo like "1 reaction per enemy per turn" sounds boring but if you've picked that you've probably picked up a lot of poo poo to do on reaction as fighter so then you're just constantly busting out your best poo poo every single time an enemy so much as thinks about doing something. You become a master of controlling the battlefield and protecting allies and punishing enemy aggression all at the same time and that's just as cool and flavorful as casting Casting Greg's Biggest Fireball
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May 22, 2021 16:48
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Zarick posted:In terms of damage effectiveness the martials definitely do really well, so that's not my problem, just many of the martial classes' high level options are really boring. Applying the multiple attack penalty to combat maneuvers feels like a bit of a mistake in some ways for this reason. (Though, arguably they’re too powerful without it. But it’d’ve been a great place to provide some more non-attack action options on the Athletics/Acrobatics skills)
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May 22, 2021 17:18
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CaptainPsyko posted:Applying the multiple attack penalty to combat maneuvers feels like a bit of a mistake in some ways for this reason. (Though, arguably they’re too powerful without it. But it’d’ve been a great place to provide some more non-attack action options on the Athletics/Acrobatics skills) A general favourite trick is to use Assurance Athletics with a third attack to ignore the penalties. You can get a surprising number of things with that guaranteed number on the weak save. Aid is also surprisingly good. It's really easy to crit at later levels (since the usual DC is 20), and you can give an ally a massive bonus. The big downside is it eats your reaction.
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May 22, 2021 18:53
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CaptainPsyko posted:Applying the multiple attack penalty to combat maneuvers feels like a bit of a mistake in some ways for this reason. (Though, arguably they’re too powerful without it. But it’d’ve been a great place to provide some more non-attack action options on the Athletics/Acrobatics skills) It definitely feels like it’d be too strong for them to not increase MAP. I think there was a ruling at one point where they weren’t affected by MAP but increased MAP which was reversed super fast and that was almost at the right level. The problem is that then everyone spends their third action tripping everyone else and Acrobatics becomes a must take for Kip Up. Shove is niche useful though, it could probably get a skill feat to ignore MAP.
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May 22, 2021 19:29
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CaptainPsyko posted:Applying the multiple attack penalty to combat maneuvers feels like a bit of a mistake in some ways for this reason. (Though, arguably they’re too powerful without it. But it’d’ve been a great place to provide some more non-attack action options on the Athletics/Acrobatics skills) It's fine because there's a bunch of attacks that let you ignore or delay or otherwise plan around MAP. It's a limitation that opens up design space and keeps them from going too bonkers.
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May 22, 2021 20:26
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's fine because there's a bunch of attacks that let you ignore or delay or otherwise plan around MAP. It's a limitation that opens up design space and keeps them from going too bonkers. Yeah to be clear I don’t think maneuvers as is are bad and need buffed so much as I think there is a missed opportunity in the design space for more combat skill actions that aren’t charisma based. Maneuvers are an obvious place to do more, but far from the only one.
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May 22, 2021 21:26
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Just wanted to inform you guys about two sales that might interest you: the Humble Pathfinder 2e Bundle has a ton of PF2E books, the entire Extinction Curse Campaign, the bestieary, core rulebook and more for like 25$. These get processed via the Paizo website, so will have the watermarks (so work with Foundry import and for Pathfinder Society play). Speaking of Foundry, they have a one year anniversary sale going with 20% off for the rest of may.
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May 22, 2021 22:42
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Cyouni posted:A general favourite trick is to use Assurance Athletics with a third attack to ignore the penalties. You can get a surprising number of things with that guaranteed number on the weak save. There's a hilarious wit based ranged swashbuckler build I'm using with One for All, aid allies attacks by shouting about how good they are and Cooperative nature for an extra +4. At level 5 that's a +17 on an aid roll each turn and I get panache on a 25 or better.
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May 23, 2021 20:16
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Harold Fjord posted:There's a hilarious wit based ranged swashbuckler build I'm using with One for All, aid allies attacks by shouting about how good they are and Cooperative nature for an extra +4. At level 5 that's a +17 on an aid roll each turn and I get panache on a 25 or better. Fellow Cooperative Nature wit swashbuckler person! Flying Blade, I assume? I'm playing one with Twin Parry with a rapier/shifting whip and Dual Finisher. It's pretty nice.
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May 23, 2021 23:28
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Anything I should know about The Extinction Curse before running it? I'm already looking at math fixes for the circus rules, cutting down the number of encounters 25%-35%, and finding an excuse to keep the evil catlady and friends around past Book 2.
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May 25, 2021 17:53
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Claytor posted:Anything I should know about The Extinction Curse before running it? I'm already looking at math fixes for the circus rules, cutting down the number of encounters 25%-35%, and finding an excuse to keep the evil catlady and friends around past Book 2. That sounds about right. I'm running it right now, up to chapter 3, and did all the things you mentioned. I use the Circus Rules Plus and culled quite a few encounters in the first couple chapters. Some other things of note: - I had the chapter 1 boss run away to return in chapter 3 - Told my players in session 0 that they are adventurers first, circusfolk second, and that the circus can take a backseat for elongated periods of time, to set expectations - watch out for the back-to-back sever fights in chapter 2 at the church, I nerfed one of them, and the retainers in chapter 3, who are a bit too tough for their level; I nerfed their hit and damage output a little - all books are part of the humble bundle I posted earlier if you think of a way to keep evil catlady alive, let me know! I've heard of people who had Balenni take her place, which sounds pretty cool, but I'm not sure how to add her again later.
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May 25, 2021 19:09
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I would say definitely take a clipper to some of the early encounters in the first book -- I've seen many people complaining they found it discouragingly lethal. Again, adventure writers seem to have been slow to get the message that in PF2, unlike PF1, you can't expect the players to reliably faceroll through level+3 encounters.
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May 25, 2021 20:20
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I'm real interested in any Extinction Curse tips as well. We're jumping into that after the beginner box dungeon (which is taking longer than I expected, but it's fine). To smooth moving from one to the other, I've been telling the players that since they have the most fighting experience of the other circus people (leaving the reason for that up to them), they got tasked with going to a nearby village to clear out the "basement" of this fishery. In exchange, the fishery will supply the circus with some fish and stuff for people and animal food, and the players get to keep what was down there. After they finish off the beginner dungeon, I'll have them taking a wagon back to the circus with some barrels of fish (with a promissory note of more later or something). I'll give an exposition dump for the backstory of the AP then, as well as let them discuss with each other their respective backgrounds with the circus in as much detail as they like. Also warn them that they're going to have to figure out what they do at the circus. The head of the circus will be waiting anxiously for them, so they'll get to meet him before the adventure starts, and give them half a day or something to mess around and meet circus people before the start of the campaign. Ideally this will drag out long enough that we push back actually starting the AP until the following week, where they have to actually perform a show. One tip I've read for the start of book one is to let the players meet the circus people and the dude that dies before you actually begin, else it's just some dude that dies and they may not care about him. I intend on giving them the history with Mistress Dusklight on the wagon ride back, I've been making notes on why exactly she was hated. All of the current circus people finally were fed up with her and took what little they had saved and struck out on their own, and having no other skills they decided to try to put on a circus show. The circus is otherwise flat broke along with most of the people in it, that's why the players in my game were sent off to pacify a rats in the basement of a fishery in exchange for some supplies. I'm tossing in a couple of NPC's I'm creating in the circus, one of which I'll have doing something or other over by where the cockatrice is hiding. I'll have that NPC warn any PC's that wander over that way (before the show, ideally) that something doesn't seem right about the rocks... I'm thinking it will be a Lizardfolk monk and so I'll flavor it as that NPC generally being very perceptive. If they do need to fight the cockatrice, I can use that NPC to assist them in the fight if it becomes needed. I think I'll change the circus mechanics as well, I haven't figure out what I'll be using, though. Would it be reasonable to just sent the full set of rules for putting on a show to the players so I don't have to narrate the mechanics of everything? I already snipped the section about equipment and character options out of the book and sent it to them. I told the players that they could have a free proficiency with any one of the new weapons, provided they used it in a performance at least once. I want someone to use the fire poi, but I don't think it's going to happen. Oh well, that's one of the reasons for the DM NPC's.
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May 25, 2021 21:59
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PF1, anyone want to help me pick a decent discipline for a psychic? Either unarchetyped or amnesiac, probably going to do just normal human? Mostly thinking dream, haunted, or symbiosis, but if anyone has a strong case for another one I may be flexible.
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May 26, 2021 02:49
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jesus did the new adventure path get delayed again?
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May 26, 2021 11:30
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Blockhouse posted:jesus did the new adventure path get delayed again? In practice it got delayed one time to July more than it got delayed again. Apparently the first book got held up in customs limbo at the port forever, so they can't ship it out. Seems like they might have book 2 but feels a little weird to ship book 2 without book 1. Edit: July not June, I guess the sub auth is June is why I remembered it that way.
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May 26, 2021 16:42
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So I’m considering running a PF2e play by discord on here starting a recruit in a couple weeks (well, that’s happening regardless of system but yeah). Anyway, are there any house rules that are good and/or essential for pf2e? I’ve never run pf2e before, but I come from dnd4e where you give three free feats out at character creation to keep the math smooth and working right, and I was wondering if there’s anything similar here, or even just tweaks that make it more fun.
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Jun 3, 2021 06:40
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The only house rule I would suggest is the Free Archetype variant, which adds some fun flavor to characters without dramatically affecting balance. Other than that, I have had a great time with strictly interpreted, fully vanilla rules.
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Jun 3, 2021 07:06
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Look Around You posted:So I’m considering running a PF2e play by discord on here starting a recruit in a couple weeks (well, that’s happening regardless of system but yeah). You can use 4e-style diagonals with absolutely no problems, and I recommend looking at the guidelines for splitting and combining movement actions. All of this plus the free archetype variant mentioned are in the GameMastery Guide, or available on aonprd.com.
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Jun 3, 2021 08:34
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I'd also recommend with the Free Archetype letting people ignore the "you must take x feats before moving on", mostly because it makes some archetypes a lot harder to take at all: there are a few with a level 2 feat then the next one is later. Though you'll definitely want to do what the Free Archetype thing says about keeping a restriction on the feats that give you extra HP from the "fighting" classes.
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Jun 3, 2021 13:58
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Free archetype owns. Everything else is just rule of cool.
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Jun 3, 2021 14:49
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Free Archetype good; if you're worried about power scaling, discourage martial classes from multi classing other martial class archetypes (i.e. Fighter/Barbarian at high levels is really the only way free archetype starts to get into math that might occasionally be described as 'busted'. But also, doing Fighter/Barbarian is boring and dumb. Tell your players to do something interesting!)
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Jun 3, 2021 15:16
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I'd also recommend Automatic Bonus Progression, for the same reasons as Inherent Bonuses in 4e.
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Jun 3, 2021 17:16
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Ineffable posted:I'd also recommend Automatic Bonus Progression, for the same reasons as Inherent Bonuses in 4e. Going to disagree on this one; inherent bonuses in 4e are a math fix for a magic item system that created tension between "get a +2 longsword, or get a longsword that does fire damage! YOU MUST CHOOSE". But Pathfinder has the nifty rune system that basically throws the appropriate bonuses onto whatever item, and makes magic weapons and armor scale pretty naturally anyway. As a bonus, as a GM using milestone progression, you can hand out a batch of runes between levels as a way to do a half-step progression. The system doesn't really need the math fix unless you or your group finds the idea of loot and magic items boring for some reason and you would rather just scale the math and never deal with treasure.
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Jun 3, 2021 17:54
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Relics are a way more fun way of doing ABP too if you don't want loot, the gifts basically function as consumables so you can almost do away with loot entirely if you give everyone weapons/armor. You'd still need item bonuses to skills though.
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Jun 3, 2021 18:05
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M. Night Skymall posted:Relics are a way more fun way of doing ABP too if you don't want loot, the gifts basically function as consumables so you can almost do away with loot entirely if you give everyone weapons/armor. You'd still need item bonuses to skills though. Item bonuses to skills are... eh. I don't think the system is anywhere near that dependent on the math there. And besides, the flavor attached to doing skills with magic items is a lot more fun, IMO.
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Jun 3, 2021 18:21
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CaptainPsyko posted:Item bonuses to skills are... eh. I don't think the system is anywhere near that dependent on the math there. And besides, the flavor attached to doing skills with magic items is a lot more fun, IMO. If you're playing a swashbuckler of any kind, or a trip focused warrior you will be very sad without your item bonuses. Probably other stuff but those are just the ones I have in my current party.
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Jun 3, 2021 19:16
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In my experience, Pathfinder 2e still has that same kind of tension - the rune system only helps somewhat. Frankly, I would much rather the game take care of the numbers it expects the PCs to have for me, rather than needing me to worry about having and using level-appropriate items/runes (as a player) or giving them out (as a GM). I admit it's a preference - you do lose some of the thrill of finding incrementally more powerful gear. For me, the trade-off is worth it, and my personal opinion is that it makes for a (marginally) better game, but I acknowledge it won't be for everyone.
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Jun 3, 2021 19:38
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What's the thread opinion on the 2e alchemist after the APG + errata? I know the general consensus on release was that they were a bit lacking at first compared with other classes. To what degree is that still the case?
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Jun 7, 2021 05:57
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I kinda like the idea of the 2nd edition alchemist but I dunno about the mechanics. Kinda want to try to backport something more actual-alchemical-item-based and less potions-that-only-you-can-drink-based to 1e
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Jun 7, 2021 06:04
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VikingofRock posted:What's the thread opinion on the 2e alchemist after the APG + errata? I know the general consensus on release was that they were a bit lacking at first compared with other classes. To what degree is that still the case? The bomber is pretty good at this point. They’re still lower tier among the classes, but the kit functions, the whole thing works more or less, etc. Poisoners are also interesting and there’s probably a neat build there if you’re interested. Chirurgeon remains really bad. Mutagenist is… still kind of awkward, though medium armor is a massive help. The fact is that mutagens themselves are still kind of mediocre outside of a few key level power spikes, unless you decide to go all in on abusing the probably unintended Energy Mutagen shenanigans. Honestly, I feel like Alchemists benefit from Free Archetype more than most classes; the biggest problem the class has is that the best thing that you can do is often hand out potions at the start of the day for your allies to use. But that leaves your own turns in an unsatisfying state. Picking up a wizard dedication to get a reliable damage cantrip or a martial dedication to boost your attacks goes a long way to giving you something more interesting to spend actions on.
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Jun 7, 2021 13:49
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Worth noting also that the alchemist will likely get better as more/better alchemical items become available through supplements (case in point, the energy mutagen, which was from an adventure I think). They may have tuned it with that in mind, though, and undershot it a bit.
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Jun 7, 2021 14:38
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GetDunked posted:Worth noting also that the alchemist will likely get better as more/better alchemical items become available through supplements (case in point, the energy mutagen, which was from an adventure I think). They may have tuned it with that in mind, though, and undershot it a bit. This is arguably true of all caster classes though, and isn't really a good excuse. The energy mutagen is specifically something that I expect to be erratted at some point. Being able to double brew two 120 minute duration Energy Mutagens and then drink and free action end them at level 12 for 48d6 of frontal cone damage is Pretty Pretty Good
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Jun 7, 2021 16:19
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I'm not trying to excuse it for sure, core alchemist is kind of a hot mess for anything but Bomber (and I'm not even sure on that). I already have to point my alchemist hopefuls who are reading the (physical) book at a laundry list of functional errata just to get their class in a finished state. I wasn't involved in the playtest, but I read somewhere Alchemist received a lot of emergency changes right before release, which would explain a lot. I'm just not sure that Paizo would be willing to throw even more errata at the core book just to give those two subclasses good options when they could do it by printing more and better mutagens/elixirs, especially if that was already content they were working on.
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Jun 7, 2021 21:46
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