(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
|
Nuns with Guns posted:The mess around 4e is actually funnier and more multilayered than that. Let me see if I can run off a few of the compounding disasters around its launch and lifecycle by memory: 6. And while all that was going on 4e was actually a really good system!
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 05:51 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/ichika_mo/status/1395328155313868801
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:24
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:
Sweet tapdancing jesus this explains so, so much about how little staying power 4e has in the cultural memory. Like this is just straight up "did Wizards WANT this to fail" tiers of self-sabotage.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
fun hater posted:dropping a bomb in here as a last means resort to destroy snyderchat This rules. Truth-iricy is my new favorite word. I hope this guy didn't shoot a bunch of people.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:30
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:I hope this guy didn't shoot a bunch of people. the biggest mood when it comes to outsider art lmfao
|
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:34
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:This rules. Truth-iricy is my new favorite word. I hope this guy didn't shoot a bunch of people. the original video was much, MUCH longer (20+ mins) and it loving ruled and i never thought to downloa dit and then youtube nuked his account for understandable reasons even if this video is literally the best video ever made?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:44
|
|
|
When I bought my 3.X edition of the rules it came with a character creator. The horrific murder-suicide of the computer team does explain why the 4th edition did not come with any extras. D =
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:45
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/InnuendoStudios/status/1396145296212647936?s=20
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
Can Luffy beat up superman
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Twincityhacker posted:When I bought my 3.X edition of the rules it came with a character creator. The horrific murder-suicide of the computer team does explain why the 4th edition did not come with any extras. D = I think the distinction is that 4E was where they wanted to go all-in on the holy grail of "everyone just goes online and everything is easily accessible right there and maybe you can even play the whole game online with minimal fuss". Which I'm pretty sure even now isn't really a thing yet, though I haven't payed close attention to D&D for years.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
roll20, forge, and syncrpg are all attempts to reach that at varying points. Which would probably be there if they were trying for just one system they owned instead of going for every rpg people want to play online.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
Violet_Sky posted:Can Luffy beat up superman He can kill him with his stench.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
John Murdoch posted:I think the distinction is that 4E was where they wanted to go all-in on the holy grail of "everyone just goes online and everything is easily accessible right there and maybe you can even play the whole game online with minimal fuss". Which I'm pretty sure even now isn't really a thing yet, though I haven't payed close attention to D&D for years. people are absolutely playing the hell out of D&D entirely online at this point, but not thanks to anything wizards did. Discord+roll20/tabletop simulator give you all the pieces you need to do it
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:27
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:He can kill him with his stench. i dont think superman smells that bad
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:28
|
|
|
yeah i’m pretty sure it’s batman who smells
|
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:33
|
|
|
These days you can get versions of the D&D books to run in most of the popular virtual tabletops so you can just have everything right in the program and searchable, and even drag and drop spells and equipment onto character sheets. Pathfinder and other major games are also pretty good about this, to varying degrees of support. Most other games will at least have an official character sheet for use in Roll20.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:33
|
|
|
Luffy and Superman would be bros. They wouldn't fight because they have no reason to
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:33
|
|
|
Wasn't a big criticism of 4E that it was too combat focused and left the social aspects undercooked or something?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
the new multidimensional dc turbovillain, the batman who smells
|
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:35
|
|
|
Jamie Faith posted:Luffy and Superman would be bros. They wouldn't fight because they have no reason to All it takes is putting them in a fighting game. People are always ready to tear each other's heads off for the slightest transgression in those, like they've all got road rage 24/7
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Wasn't a big criticism of 4E that it was too combat focused and left the social aspects undercooked or something? This is a fairly accurate statement, but it also happens to be true about every other edition of D&D as well, so it's a bit disingenuous to leverage it at 4e in particular like it's a new problem.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:40
|
|
|
A lot of criticisms of 4E were totally applicable to earlier versions but people just houseruled them to hell and back so perspective was a bit skewed
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:45
|
|
|
Vanguard Warden posted:This is a fairly accurate statement, but it also happens to be true about every other edition of D&D as well, so it's a bit disingenuous to leverage it at 4e in particular like it's a new problem. 4th ed makes no pretenses about being anything other than a good dungeon crawler/combat game, which made it a pariah among a certain subset of players that love pretenses and hate good games.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
There is nothing wrong with wanting to roleplay in DnD I say.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
Goa Tse-tung posted:6. And while all that was going on 4e was actually a really good system! I like 4e, and while it has flaws I think most of those are things it inherited from 3e or are applicable to D&D in general.  :Twincityhacker posted:When I bought my 3.X edition of the rules it came with a character creator. The horrific murder-suicide of the computer team does explain why the 4th edition did not come with any extras. D = The murder-suicide was the e-tools project lead killing his wife (they might've been divorced, can't recall) and himself, not the rest of the team. But I imagine it's a hard job to recruit for when people of that skill level could probably find better pay in a million tech jobs. CmdrKing posted:Sweet tapdancing jesus this explains so, so much about how little staying power 4e has in the cultural memory. Like this is just straight up "did Wizards WANT this to fail" tiers of self-sabotage. D&D is interesting because like, it's a notable IP in the public consciousness, but it was only seen as marketable and profitable enough to have any care or strategy put into marketing it and rolling out new things in like the past 5 years. And only because independent streaming and actual play groups made it successful. John Murdoch posted:I think the distinction is that 4E was where they wanted to go all-in on the holy grail of "everyone just goes online and everything is easily accessible right there and maybe you can even play the whole game online with minimal fuss". Which I'm pretty sure even now isn't really a thing yet, though I haven't payed close attention to D&D for years. 5e has D&D Insider now, which seems pretty successful, and direct support of adventures and tools on roll20. 4e was right that online play is the future. It was just Dreamcast-tier ahead of its time.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
Jamie Faith posted:Luffy and Superman would be bros. They wouldn't fight because they have no reason to They'd be friends but only after a brief scuffle based on a misunderstanding where Supes is immediately wary of a group of superpowered pirates and Luffy thinks that the Justice League
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
Wasn't the actual problem with 4E was that it's design aped video games a little too hard and made it so you had to keep track of a million things and made turns go on for way too long? Like this video demonstrates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpmUxfS4LF8
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:Wasn't the actual problem with 4E was that it's design aped video games a little too hard and made it so you had to keep track of a million things and made turns go on for way too long? No, that's the bad faith criticisms that also applied to every edition that had been released before 4e. When 3.0 came out the bad faith criticism was that it was aping Diablo As someone who's favorite edition is 3.5, that edition was worse about fiddly bonuses than 4E
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:56
|
|
|
Neo_Crimson posted:Wasn't the actual problem with 4E was that it's design aped video games a little too hard and made it so you had to keep track of a million things and made turns go on for way too long?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:Wasn't a big criticism of 4E that it was too combat focused and left the social aspects undercooked or something? Social aspects of D&D are: 1. Freeform rp ungoverned by the rules. 2. Bluff/diplomacy/intimidation or another skill check. 3. Casting an ambiguously ethical mind control or persuasion-boosting spell to make someone do something. 4e still allows for all of this. 4e-undercooked noncombat thing was the idea of Skill Challenges to try to make skill checks interesting. The final version of those rules is alright but I don't know if it succeed at making skill checks consistently interesting.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
4E has basically exactly the same level of non-combat interactions that aren't based on spells just skipping that part entirely, which a lot of those spells were removed or made more limited. That unfortunately exposed how much of dealing with non combat stuff in previous editions was based on being able to cast a spell to ignore it entirely If you want to slam on 4E for something, it did a good job of actually making a good combat system but mostly just kept the same base non combat system as every other edition Piell fucked around with this message at 19:06 on May 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
Some people just don't like having things in tabletop that they could imagine on their hotbars in an MMO.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:05
|
|
|
The strength of the non-combat seconds of D&D for pretty much any edition are almost entirely reliant on the GM and the players themselves. A GM telling a good story with interesting characters who's willing to give rewards or leeway to players who work to engage with that out of combat don't really need much there mechanically to bolster a fun social dynamic to the adventure. If the GM is uninterested or if the players don't do anything but grunt at NPC's about quests or "I roll for charisma" then poo poo's gonna suck even if a robust mechanical system is being used. Spoony did a really good Counter Monkey episode back in the day about how if you're GM'ing you should never let your players get away with poo poo like "I roll for bluff" to get out of a situation. They have to actually, you know, roleplay their character trying to bluff and the GM can force dice rolls as they see fit. And hey, if it's a loving phenomenal bluff plan, maybe don't roll at all and just let the player have a well earned victory.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
It’s interesting the way that Pathfinder was made so that Paizo could keep selling adventures. I think the adventures are probably the best part of Pathfinder 1e, they really play to the game’s strengths. I can’t imagine dming a custom game in Pathfinder 1e, but I’d absolutely dm the Pathfinder Society scenarios or the longer adventures they put out, those were often a blast
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:12
|
|
|
I like rolling for bluff or whatever because much as a strength check lets me roleplay someone stronger than I am, a diplomacy check lets me play as someone more charismatic than I am.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:21
|
|
|
Was 4e the one that gave us Bear Lore or was that some 3.5 supplemental? I think it might have actually been the latter but I'm not sure.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:25
|
|
|
MechanicalTomPetty posted:Was 4e the one that gave us Bear Lore or was that some 3.5 supplemental? I think it might have actually been the latter but I'm not sure.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:28
|
|
|
4e's tactical grid combat would probably be better received now as an alternative to all the RP-first games for people who just wanna crack a beer and blugeon some kobolds and goblins without contemplation on the ethics of being an itinerant professional graverobber. Especially since everyone plays on a VTT now which can handle all the extra calculations, grid measurements, and fiddly modifiers without the players trying to figure it out when they're 4 hours in and got too high again.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:29
|
|
|
Sydin posted:Spoony did a really good Counter Monkey episode back in the day about how if you're GM'ing you should never let your players get away with poo poo like "I roll for bluff" to get out of a situation. They have to actually, you know, roleplay their character trying to bluff and the GM can force dice rolls as they see fit. And hey, if it's a loving phenomenal bluff plan, maybe don't roll at all and just let the player have a well earned victory. That's best way to do it if you can manage it but it being a good idea really depends on the group. I usually GM for a group of socially awkward nerds putting them on the spot like that will probably just make them clam up and discourage them from trying more social stuff. If you can roleplay a character who is strong without going to the gym you should also be able to roleplay a witty charismatic guy while not being one. Andrast fucked around with this message at 19:39 on May 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 05:51 |
|
|
Andrast posted:That being a good idea really depends on the group. I usually GM for a group of socially awkward nerds putting them on the spot like that will probably just make them clam up and discourage them from trying more social stuff. If you can roleplay a character who is strong without going to the gym you should also be able to roleplay a witty charismatic guy while not being one.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:38
|
|