|
regulargonzalez posted:Lots of unnecessary stuff that could / should have been cut: everything with Jerry, Red, Shelly's daughter, Truman's wife, all pointless. Fight me IRL
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:Lots of unnecessary stuff that could / should have been cut: everything with Jerry, Red, Shelly's daughter, Truman's wife, all pointless. Keep Wally Brando forever though. You fool. It's there because it's pointless!
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 17:45
|
|
|
Twin Peaks: It's a show about nothing
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 17:50
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:Just binged the entire series with my gf (her first time, my nth time except for S3 which was my second time). Picked up a lot more on this watch of season 3 but still so many questions. The Laura as garmonbozia bomb theory rings pretty true to me but there's still a ton of other stuff. Why is Cooper's face overlaid on screen in e17, saying "we live in a dream"? Is the entirety of TP s1-2 and most of 3 just some Judy pocket universe? If Audrey is in a coma and just dreaming, how is her story about Billy, Tina et al basically repeated by Tina herself in the roadhouse? (Maybe Tina is a nurse and Audrey heard a conversation and incorporated it into her coma dream?) Why is there a recurring theme of "I had forgotten about that but it's coming back to me now, like a dream I had almost forgotten". Weird timeline stuff like the Mr C text of "Las Vegas?" being sent after Diane received it, seems impossible to make work within any time frame. The entirety of reality is a dream. I hope this help's explain things.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
I mean, that seems both too easy and lazy an explanation, and unsatisfying.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:09
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:I mean, that seems both too easy and lazy an explanation, and unsatisfying. You already know the answers, you just don't think you know them
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
It’s all dreams within dreams. Richard is just as real as Cooper is/was. At least that’s how I choose to interpret it. e: either that, or S3 explored the different “layers” to reality, with Richard-verse being the top actual world, Twin Peaks being the shared dream layer where ideas and thoughts intermingle, the Lodges being the next layer down, and so forth. I dunno man, it’s just Lynch and his delightful kookiness. It could be anything. HD DAD fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 21, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:22
|
|
|
its not "reality is a dream" in the sense that it was all some kid's snowglobe. its "reality is a dream" in the sense that the nature of our reality is predicated on our flow of consciousness and memory. loss in or flux of memory/consciousness ensuing in identify crises is one of the central reoccurring motifs in season 3. Cooper can't return home in the end not because Twin Peaks, the place, is a dream, but the Twin Peaks of 1989 that he called 'home' might as well be. between the passing of 25 years, and being stuck in an alternate dimension, and all the other poo poo he goes through, those connections he had there have been severed. As such, being literally torn away from his reality and being made to sacrifice a portion of his humanity, 'Cooper' is rendered a dream, and he becomes 'Richard', a new identity unmoored from that history.
DOPE FIEND KILLA G fucked around with this message at 18:57 on May 21, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:48
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:It’s all dreams within dreams. Richard is just as real as Cooper is/was. I mean, I do kind of buy that. Two different worlds, each existing as a dream of the other. But is there an underlying reality? Did episode 8 exist in that reality or was it a dream? What is the dream, and who is the dreamer?  I do find it interesting that Jennifer Lynch's directorial debut, Boxing Helena, takes the "it's all a dream" motif as literally as possible and got blown tf up in reviews for it. Even naked Sherilyn Fenn couldn't save it.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
The thing with S3 is that, if any other show or creator had pulled the same poo poo (ie nothing makes sense, it's all a dream, what is real?), I would have been pissed. I don't know what it is about Lynch's presentation that makes it feel so much more compelling and deep but here we are. I watched S3 for the first time last fall and I still find myself chewing it over from time to time.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
I think a significant factor is that, even putting aside his thematic choices or personal interests, he is one of the most technically skilled directors of all time. He has a mastery of mood and tone that is up there with Kubrick and Hitchcock. There are at least 3 scenes in Mulholland Dr (hitman scene, dumpster scene, Club Silencio) that I'd put up there with any Spielberg oner. Club Silencio, man. Here's how good Lynch is. He tells you exactly what the trick for this scene is ("nothing is real") and immediately makes you forget it when the trumpet player plays. Then you realize he's not playing and you're like, oh yeah, I'm a dumbass, he just told me everything was a recording. And then! He does the same loving trick again and you fall for it again! A true master of his trade. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 02:55 on May 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
I still think the Richard/Carrie Page universe is like a pocket universe created by Judy
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 19:15
|
|
|
I kinda love the idea that Laura might be doomed to never be able to be "saved" (in the literal, prevent her being murdered sense) but that Cooper will NEVER stop trying. Ever. It's who he is, and it's sad and beautiful and inspiring that the moment he fails he almost seems to be looking for the next path to take to try again, and he always will. That's my read on that final scene with his little stutter step outside the Palmer house, anyway. From memory it is the same stutter step he uses to step through into the Richard & Linda reality in the first place.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 00:53
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:The thing with S3 is that, if any other show or creator had pulled the same poo poo (ie nothing makes sense, it's all a dream, what is real?), I would have been pissed. I don't know what it is about Lynch's presentation that makes it feel so much more compelling and deep but here we are. I watched S3 for the first time last fall and I still find myself chewing it over from time to time. I remember reading an interview with Abrams and lindelof. it was right before the release of the final season of lost and I was incredibly hyped to finally get some answers... then in the interview they admitted they had no plan and they were just making poo poo up as they went along and got incredibly pissed lol. Lynch is an extremely competent and confident director. Even though there's a lot of wacky poo poo in twin peaks I think it's all there for a reason. There is an internal logic to twin peaks and it's up to the viewer to come to their own conclusions. The Klowner fucked around with this message at 04:51 on May 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 01:18
|
|
|
What makes Lynch's works different for me is that they always feel like there is some internal logic to it. He's really good at seeing connections where none existed and even though they don't make sense to me I'm sure they make some sense to him, and that's good enough for me
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 04:47
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:I mean, I do kind of buy that. Two different worlds, each existing as a dream of the other. But is there an underlying reality? Did episode 8 exist in that reality or was it a dream? What is the dream, and who is the dreamer? I like to think Lynch is trying to say that "we" are the dreamer because during the Monica Bellucci dream and the Cooper close up, both are looking directly at us as they speak. And to say what "we" are, well we can only learn that if we learn Transcendental Meditation like Lynch I suppose. Or did he get these ideas before that?
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 08:10
|
|
|
I think it’s the same as trying to make a “so bad it’s good” movie. If you set out to do that, it will fail. Same thing with trying to make something random/whacky/Lynchian. It has to come from a place of sincerity to work.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 19:58
|
|
|
The Klowner posted:I remember reading an interview with Abrams and lindelof. it was right before the release of the final season of lost and I was incredibly hyped to finally get some answers... then in the interview they admitted they had no plan and they were just making poo poo up as they went along and got incredibly pissed lol. Ngl I think Lost was the show I was unknowingly comparing Twin Peaks against when I said that. I watched the first two seasons of Lost and felt like it was SUCH a waste of time knowing that it ultimately goes nowhere. I think you guys are right that it's the technical skill and originality that really does it. I think Lost was such a cynically produced mess that it felt inauthentic. No matter what Lynch does, you know he's in it for the artistic expression, not just to make a buck.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 20:08
|
|
|
The most pointless scenes Lynch’s work are there to poke and prod you into feeling something, having to process that feeling, not really knowing what to do with it, then learn to let it go and get back into the flow of the art. It’s special.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 20:13
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:I kinda love the idea that Laura might be doomed to never be able to be "saved" (in the literal, prevent her being murdered sense) but that Cooper will NEVER stop trying. Ever. It's who he is, and it's sad and beautiful and inspiring that the moment he fails he almost seems to be looking for the next path to take to try again, and he always will. I don't think it's terribly admirable of Coop though, it's exactly the same pattern of behavior he inflicted on Caroline and Annie where they end up paying the price for his well-intentioned hubris. Like Season 3 starts with Laura being snatched from the only measure of peace she's ever had and forced back into the world to be 'saved' by Cooper with predictable results, it's horrible!
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 21:04
|
|
|
Is it Laura, though? She's kind of zapped upwards in a strange digital effect. We see that effect a few other times, always when it's a tulpa / doppelganger being moved and never with a real person.
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 21:22
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:Is it Laura, though? She's kind of zapped upwards in a strange digital effect. We see that effect a few other times, always when it's a tulpa / doppelganger being moved and never with a real person. Do we ever see anyone else get yanked out of the frame like that? But it would basically have to be her regardless as we find out later on that she *is* bought back from the dead from the White Lodge and that's pretty much what the scene is conveying
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
multijoe posted:Do we ever see anyone else get yanked out of the frame like that? But it would basically have to be her regardless as we find out later on that she *is* bought back from the dead from the White Lodge and that's pretty much what the scene is conveying Not-Diane vanishes like that
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 21:33
|
|
|
Could be that’s just the way Judy yanks folks, tulpa or not
|
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 21:36
|
|
|
I finally loving watched this entire series over the last couple months. We ended up watching S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> FWW, which, while not the uhhhhh preferred order (or correct order) it was fine. What a wild ride. end of S2 the end of s2 was such a gut punch, I loving loved it. So gd dark! related to s3 characters TBH I was kinda of disappointed, but not hugely, that it felt like they retconned the apparent on-screen deaths of so many characters from the end of s2. ziasquinn fucked around with this message at 01:53 on May 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 01:50
|
|
|
No need for spoiler tags. So many deaths from the end of s2 were retconned? I can see that for Audrey but what other character deaths were retconned? I guess an argument could be made for Laura even though she didn't die at the end of s2, and Cooper was shown to be in the red room at the end of s2 and never died. Will Hayward? A knock on the head is pretty mild by end of season cliffhanger standards. E: and Doc Hayward was basically included because 1) he is co-creator Mark Frost's father, and 2) he was dying of Alzheimer's. It was basically so fans of the actor or his character could see him one last time, similar to Catherine Coulson (the log lady). regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 02:56 on May 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 02:49
|
|
|
regulargonzalez posted:E: and Doc Hayward was basically included because 1) he is co-creator Mark Frost's father, and 2) he was dying of Alzheimer's. It was basically so fans of the actor or his character could see him one last time, similar to Catherine Coulson (the log lady). I knew about coulson but everything else is  to me
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 03:15
|
|
|
multijoe posted:I don't think it's terribly admirable of Coop though, it's exactly the same pattern of behavior he inflicted on Caroline and Annie where they end up paying the price for his well-intentioned hubris. Like Season 3 starts with Laura being snatched from the only measure of peace she's ever had and forced back into the world to be 'saved' by Cooper with predictable results, it's horrible! I'm thinking in terms of the great good he does in the process of his (impossible) quest: the joy and success and happiness he brings in his wake as Dougie, the bittersweet reunion with all his old friends (sans Harry  ) in Twin Peaks, the saving of Diane from her limbo between reality etc. Then he pursues his quest to save Laura and it fails, and he's stunned and upset.... but he's willing to do it again, and in the process he will continue to make the world just that little bit a better, happier place. Which is probably what the residents of the White Lodge want from him, to be an agent of positive change against the relentless onset of the dark.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 04:23
|
|
|
I am not so sure that he has made the world a better and happier place with his actions post-orb defeat
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 05:53
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Which is probably what the residents of the White Lodge want from him, to be an agent of positive change against the relentless onset of the dark. What makes you think there is a White Lodge, at all? Or that characters like the Giant / Fireman have any sort of benevolent intentions?
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 06:05
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:What makes you think there is a White Lodge, at all? Or that characters like the Giant / Fireman have any sort of benevolent intentions? Well apart from the fact I find the idea that there are actively malevolent forces like Bob out there with no counter-balance incredibly depressing, characters like the Fireman are shown multiple times to be concerned for/worried about trying to help people avoid hardship/pain/horror - the one that stands out the most to me is the Fireman silently pleading with Cooper not to let somebody (Annie?) join the beauty pageant. I always felt like the town/area of Twin Peaks itself is largely a reflection of the wider cosmic forces seemingly at play: there's an underlying darkness and danger but also people who are invested in guarding against that and working their best to prevent harm, and not letting evil run around unhindered. Remind me: in the scene in Fire Walk With Me where the Arm sits with Bob demanding his share of Garmonbozia, while many other figures are present like the (a) Woodsman and even Mrs. Tremond and her grandson, the Fireman himself is not present, right? Plus we see him present alone in his "home" in episode 8 seeing the "birth"/ejection of Bob into the world, and immediately taking steps to try and bring about his capture/confinement within the Lodge. Unless I'm remembering wrong, he never shows any interest in or desire for the "pain and sorrow" the other characters seem to covet. But also, going back to the first line: I just find it depressing to think there isn't some benevolent force out there trying to help, and when I watch Twin Peaks I don't see it as a depressing show despite all the darkness and horror often present in it. There always seems to be an underlying current of people working their best to fight evil, but to also be happy and enjoy good lives because life isn't just about stopping badness, it's about enjoying the good. If that wasn't in there, I don't think I would enjoy the show anywhere near as much.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 11:20
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Well apart from the fact I find the idea that there are actively malevolent forces like Bob out there with no counter-balance incredibly depressing, characters like the Fireman are shown multiple times to be concerned for/worried about trying to help people avoid hardship/pain/horror - the one that stands out the most to me is the Fireman silently pleading with Cooper not to let somebody (Annie?) join the beauty pageant. Also he's called the Fireman (i.e. one who puts out fires), I don't think it's a reach to conclude he has genuinely positive intentions
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 11:34
|
|
|
Watching this show and thinking The Fireman isn’t a force of good is a hell of a take
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 11:37
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Well apart from the fact I find the idea that there are actively malevolent forces like Bob out there with no counter-balance incredibly depressing, Bob is Mike's familiar. Mike is hellbent on stopping him. He also severed himself from evil (the Arm) when he "saw the face of god." Maybe a god, or some general supernatural force for good... the Fireman.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 14:24
|
|
|
The Klowner posted:I remember reading an interview with Abrams and lindelof. it was right before the release of the final season of lost and I was incredibly hyped to finally get some answers... then in the interview they admitted they had no plan and they were just making poo poo up as they went along and got incredibly pissed lol. Lynch doesnt try to bamboozle his audience they know exactly what they're getting into, from the first frame. I think ppl get pissed when a filmmaker promises one thing from the beginning qnd fails at delivering it. Like a captain ineptly running into iceberg. Lynch promises you that he'll hit that loving iceberg, because the waters of the North Sea is loving good for you.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 14:48
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Lynch doesnt try to bamboozle his audience they know exactly what they're getting into, from the first frame. First time I watched Mulholland Drive, I almost turned it off because I didn't see how it could possibly turn into anything worthwhile. And then the whole movie post-Silencio happened. It's an absolute masterclass in storytelling. Twin Peaks is just a bit harder to parse out after s3 because there's so much going on. It's really more like being given Lego pieces that you can fit together to make whatever final vision of the show you like. But I do agree that it's very fundamentally about light and dark in the world and the constant tug-of-war to keep a balance.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 18:02
|
|
|
Lord Krangdar posted:What makes you think there is a White Lodge, at all? 
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 18:31
|
|
|
shoeberto posted:I think about this a lot with Mulholland Drive. Very few mindfuck movies ever make good on the little in-universe fractal of mysteries that they set up. They just do weird poo poo for the sake of it. The constant cock tease of a revelation that never comes makes them sort of worthless beyond being a stoned 18 year old. First time I watched Mulholland drive I fell asleep during the club silencio moment. In the morning I texted my buddy and told him I though the movie was kinda lame. A week later he convinced me to finish it and now it's one of my favorite movies.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
I watched Mulholland drive for the first time this past week, and it's basically all I can think about. I also just started season 3 for the first time, and holy cow, I think I might have OD'd on Lynch.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 20:44 |
|
|
I remember watching Mulholland Drive with my buddy when we were like 17-18 and taking a smoke break halfway through where we just stood outside going "what the gently caress" at each other. makes me wish we'd had Twin Peaks S3 back then, holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 19:44
|
|
