|
Pedestrian Xing posted:Guess what happens when your worst devs get put on automation duty? You end up with a monstrosity of Cucumbers and Gherkins and BDD DSL FUBAR with over 1500 public static global state variables that guarantee it can never run anything in parallel! Stop doxxing my interns. They are doing their best with no oversight, code reviews, or inclusion into the rest of the team.
|
#
?
May 18, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:07 |
|
|
Protocol7 posted:Have a project that we're trying to wrap up. For context, I work in utilities trying to help companies identify all kinds of insights on utility poles. Sounds like you should be asking (and getting in writing) what form they do want it in, instead of trying to discover it via putting a lot of effort into trying something to only then be told no.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2021 04:22
|
|
|
Pedestrian Xing posted:Guess what happens when your worst devs get put on automation duty? You end up with a monstrosity of Cucumbers and Gherkins and BDD DSL FUBAR with over 1500 public static global state variables that guarantee it can never run anything in parallel! Someone at my company picked https://robotframework.org/ for some reason 
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2021 14:45
|
|
|
Munkeymon posted:Someone at my company picked https://robotframework.org/ for some reason human readable test scripts / keyword driven testing is the root of all evil. the people writing your automated test scripts should just learn a programming language of any kind, and if not, they should not be automating. this robot thing is a wrapper for wrappers - if anything goes wrong good luck troubleshooting that.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2021 15:12
|
|
|
Pedestrian Xing posted:Guess what happens when your worst devs get put on automation duty? You end up with a monstrosity of Cucumbers and Gherkins and BDD DSL FUBAR with over 1500 public static global state variables that guarantee it can never run anything in parallel! Ugh. As a predominantly manual tester, it shits me to tears when managers think testing is something "anyone" can do, so they send the organisational dregs my way. I know my job generally isn't considered particularly interesting nor exciting to devs, but getting testing done well makes things so much better for everyone working on the application. My work is... Hectic. While I enjoy it for the sheer variety of stuff I've gotten to try, it's a small company, so while my job title says 'Software Tester', I'm really in a hybrid role where I test, do business analyst stuff, tier 2 or 3 support, ferret out weird bits of functionality and other errata everyone else has forgotten about as well as create demo scenarios. If that sounds like a lot... It is, and I'm probably doing about 3 jobs really crappily. To smooth out my workflow, I've got a bunch of templates, and judiciously use Excel macros and SQL scripts and also exploit the application I work on's API with Postman (I had to learn some JavaScript for that one, bleh). Anyway. This week at work I've gotten uncomfortable enough with how much institutional knowledge is just floating around in my head that I started writing down all the weird stuff that doesn't really belong anywhere in a central location. It's felt super awkward before now, but I've often pushed it off coz something more urgent needed handling. This time, I'm committing myself to at least writing down the stuff I had almost entirely forgotten exists in the app (usually because it's rarely used or only set up once in a blue moon). I think I'm at the point where I need to either find a new job, or demand a substantial pay rise. While I wouldn't say I'm fantastic at any one thing, I realised while writing things down today that being a generalist might be a speciality in and of itself, particularly given my role. I'm still going to really struggle with the asking, though. 
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
Last project was canceled after a round of lay offs that you mysteriously survived? Haven’t had anything to do for a while? New boss scheduled a meeting with just me called “Business Update”? You’re getting laid off! Time to figure out my state’s unemployment website.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2021 18:26
|
|
|
I hate cucumber/gherkin. I had a perfectly usable Selenium test suite written with Spock, but then management heard about cucumber and said, "We can have <greybeard in non-dev role> write tests!" I told them switching was a bad idea and the person in question would never read or write tests because they were always busy on other things. Of course, they put the new hire on doing the test conversion. They ran into tons of issues, involved multiple other devs for weeks of person-hours, and then bailed before finishing. I got left with the mess and had to rewrite most of it. It still couldn't be run in parallel and updating tests was painful, much less writing new ones. And the above greybeard in question never looked at the tests.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 00:49
|
|
|
The secret to using cucumber is to do as little as possible to get to the point where the greybeared/non-developer business person/etc. can start writing tests and only build it out properly if you actually find yourself with some tests that you can't run. You can even take this as far as starting by just manually translating tests that they write into your existing test framework and only automating that with cucumber if they write enough tests to justify automating it.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 04:39
|
|
|
Using Gherkin is like trying to get the Zork text parser to understand you while six coworkers yell about how your phrasing is wrong. I did actually get Cucumber/Gherkin tests running in parallel though so I feel very smug now.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 09:57
|
|
|
The most difficult thing I found when working with Cucumber is that, while it promises you can write tests in natural language, you need to be very strict in how you construct these test sentences because otherwise you end up having to implement 10 glue methods all doing more or less the same thing. There was also no real good way for test authors to discover which sentences were allowed, unless they'd scan the existing tests and infer the structure from there. Sagacity fucked around with this message at 13:40 on May 20, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 10:00
|
|
|
My tech lead proposed gherkin tests a while back that we'd have to maintain and I died a little inside. Luckily, we ran into huge resourcing issues right after and that particular initiative fell off a cliff, and now our QA team has their own plans so I think I can consider that particular bullet dodged.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 13:18
|
|
|
Sagacity posted:The most difficult thing I found when working with Cucumber is that, while it promises you can write tests in natural language, you need to be very strict in how you construct these test sentences because otherwise you end up having to implement 10 glue methods all doing more or less the same thing. OK so I read this post and got really curious, so I thumbed through the Cucumber reference and... uhh...  Yeah, there's no way this isn't going to cause some kind of issue down the road, not at all.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 15:41
|
|
|
Well, perhaps there are IDE plugins that can help with this via some sort of autocompletion mechanism. But, no, your business people will never be writing these tests.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2021 18:41
|
|
|
What drives me nuts is how most people only use cucumber for UI testing but the tutorial examples are always testing functions that add numbers or poo poo. https://www.npmjs.com/package/@maxired/jest-cucumber Feature: Rocket Launching Scenario: Launching a SpaceX rocket Given I am Elon Musk attempting to launch a rocket into space When I launch the rocket Then the rocket should end up in space And the booster(s) should land back on the launch pad And nobody should doubt me ever again
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 12:55
|
|
|
"Oh, I've heard of Cucumber, but never looked at it, wonder what everyone's freaking out about." *checks docs* 
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 13:19
|
|
|
cypress is pleasant to work with
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 13:39
|
|
|
smackfu posted:What drives me nuts is how most people only use cucumber for UI testing but the tutorial examples are always testing functions that add numbers or poo poo. From the outside, you might think that cucumber is either a) A test runner b) An automation tool that lets you do some kind of UI testing. That's not actually what cucumber does - e.g. if you look on their website on how to actually do testing, it just redirects you to tools that actually do the work on their own (e.g. selenium for browser testing, jest as a test runner). Cucumber is just a tool from translating scripts written in its own pseudo-English "cucumber" language to code that you've written in a some other language that actually tests a product (oh, and you have to write that poo poo yourself anyway). That's why the examples don't go into actually using it to do things.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 14:48
|
|
|
Where's that guy who was using GPT-3 to generate applications on the fly? That seems a hell of a lot more useful than Cucumber, even if that GPT-3 app generator thing was probably bullshit.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:04
|
|
|
Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:From the outside, you might think that cucumber is either Who wants that?
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:07
|
|
|
“If we could just use the acceptance criteria directly as the test suite, there would be no missed requirements.”
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:10
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Who wants that? Business people in my experience
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Who wants that? i imagine people who don't look into it for more than ten minutes and think the tool is actually useful from the description on the website.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:22
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Who wants that? Given that I am not a technically strong person And I want to maximize my bonus When I select a test framework for my organization Then that test framework should look like natural language that ~anyone can write~ And I should be able to lay off all the test automation developers
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:30
|
|
|
smackfu posted:“If we could just use the acceptance criteria directly as the test suite, there would be no missed requirements.” My old PL tried to get QA to write acceptance criteria in Cucumber syntax. After like 2 to 3 weeks of "practice", the whole thing was dropped.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:32
|
|
|
Yeah my experience is that a team where people know wtf is going on and feel empowered to use their judgment is the real solve.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:47
|
|
|
Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Cucumber is just a tool from translating scripts written in its own pseudo-English "cucumber" language to code that you've written in a some other language that actually tests a product (oh, and you have to write that poo poo yourself anyway). That's why the examples don't go into actually using it to do things. Yeah, it’s kind of funny how little it does. Like I have definitely spent more time trying to configure Cucumber than it would take to write a simple implementation. We’ve also had good success with “fake” Cucumber for UI tests where you just write lines like: whenIClickOnThe ButtonNamed(“Submit”); thenIShouldSeeTheConfirmationPage(); Which gets most of the benefit for a developer and requires zero config or packages.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:54
|
|
|
smackfu posted:Yeah, it’s kind of funny how little it does. Like I have definitely spent more time trying to configure Cucumber than it would take to write a simple implementation. Yeah, that's what I would recommend doing instead of using cucumber - write your tests in a programming language of any kind, and give the functions useful names. This gives you side benefits like actually being able to put breakpoints in your tests and debug, etc.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
Managers have been trying to remove programming from programmers since COBOL. It’s doomed to failure.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
Space Gopher posted:Given that I am not a technically strong person Lol But also this highlights something that annoyed me writing the tests: people naturally write “Then the page should do something” rather than “Then the page does something”. This is a waste of typing time but also, being extremely pedantic, even if the page actually does nothing then the statement “the page should do something” is still true since you’re making an assertion about how things SHOULD be rather than about how they ACTUALLY ARE vs the test execution. This bothered me wayyy more than it should
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 18:01
|
|
|
lifg posted:Managers have been trying to remove programming from programmers since COBOL. It’s doomed to failure. Low code is the future!
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 19:03
|
|
|
What's a good web platform for sharing documentation or whatever with your team? We already use Jira for tickets if that matters. Just need something super basic so me and my team can compile shared info like remote access connection information in one spot. Is that like, what Confluence is? I feel like an idiot for asking, but I've never really been in a position to set something like this up myself.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
Protocol7 posted:What's a good web platform for sharing documentation or whatever with your team? We already use Jira for tickets if that matters. Yeah, that's basically Confluence. It's fine and has some good plugins like draw.io integrations.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
Confluence predates markdown which is kind of annoying. But it does the job and non technical people can handle it.
|
|
#
?
May 21, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
As long as you never need to search for anything because holy gently caress is Confluence search useless. Exact title match? Yeah, let’s put that on page 7 of the results. chglcu fucked around with this message at 02:13 on May 22, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 22, 2021 02:03
|
|
|
I may be biased, but if you don't already have Atlassian products I would strongly suggest avoiding new instances. They EOL'd their "server" product range a while back, so your options now are either use their cloud-hosted offerings or move to their "datacentre" products which are just self-hosted version of the cloud stuff, but a lot more expensive than the equivalent server product (minimum seat count is 500 users). As a small shop (<100 users) with a hard requirement not to move to cloud due to the nature of our industry this has been a huge pain in my rear end - we'd be looking at going from low-ish five figures annual maintenance on server to six figures if we moved to datacenter, which my boss has understandably not been happy about. I also hear that performance in cloud/datacentre is a lot worse than the server products.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
I'd treat anything Atlassian as a last resort. Their software isn't great. The licensing is absurd. Most of it half works around the edges. The killer features are that they play nice together and something like Jira is infinitely customizable (in theory, not in practice). They built a business successfully on marketing their tools to middle manager types who want to see shiny charts and graphs while having no idea how to actually audit the strengths and weaknesses of the software.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 08:35
|
|
|
Bitbucket used to be waaaay cheaper than GitHub if you wanted to have lots of private repos, not sure if that's still the case
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 14:22
|
|
|
it isn't. github gives you private repos for free and now you pay for code review, CI/CD type stuff, project management, etc. same with gitlab pretty much
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2021 15:16
|
|
|
Has anyone used Notion as an alternative to Confluence? Our docs are spread across Confluence, Google docs, GitHub wikis, and more, and we don’t particularly love any of those locations, they all have their faults. Some people on my team and I thought Notion looked nice, and a few have used at other places, but we never pitched adopting it, we joked about how we would be adding to the problem with yet another place
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 04:07 |
|
|
Bitbucket is known at our org as shitbucket.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2021 07:18
|
|
