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At times I am on the buy side of these things and I can assure you that at least some of them are quite legitimate.
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May 20, 2021 14:30
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Alright so the company (I will call Company C) I mentioned previously reached back out and wanted to restart discussions. I said sure, because why shut out any opportunities? I was kind of hoping they’d come back with a new offer, but they’re asking what I have in mind. My dual jobs (right now are going ~140 (90k full time/benefits [Company A] and same rate on contract [Company B] roughly half time), which I told C before, and they can’t get there. Long story short, I don’t even know what to reply aside from “let me think on it”. However, the dual roles will likely come to an end soon (Company B has just created the permanent role they’d promised me initially at the start in November). Job just posted, they told me the whole process will take a solid 6 weeks, by which time Company C will have long moved on. I might be able to make 105-110 plus project bonus with C, and transition to regional babysitter after project is done. I’m trying research the pay at the listed grades for B but not having any luck so far. I’m hoping if I pull ~90 after the staffing agency’s cut now (40 hrs) they’ll actually come in decently higher, but not sure it’s kosher to ask at this stage. A will continue to meander, I expect, with poor communication and management. Best plus there is staying mostly out of sight and making a solid check with decent slack in my day. Obviously I’m not used to this attention or any choices in job.
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May 22, 2021 00:41
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Just went from 75k /yr and unhappy and traveling 30% up to ~105k/yr with no travel. I was gonna be pleased if I kept it above 90k. Yowza. There are some wrinkles that make a 30k raise a *little* less amazing (new job is in a state with income tax, longer work hours, a commute), but I'll be working with actually competent people in a company that values its employees. Money is good, but it's more that I needed some validation after years of getting saddled with my lovely manager's fuckups and castigated when I couldn't work miracles. Remember folks, project confidence in your interviews, don't be overeager, and help them conclude that you're a good fit. I did what I could to find out typical compensation for my field/experience, which saved me from assuming I was only worth what my last job was paying me. And on that note, I strongly endorse not divulging your pay. I don't think I get a 30k delta if I did. This thread is the steadfast Yoshi to my bawling, screaming baby Mario. Thanks for the help. Excited to start something new.
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May 22, 2021 07:50
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So I have an offer on the table, it's less than i am used to making but it's a new role for me, ostensibly better work life balance, and it's in the same city as my wife's new job, which is a big step forward for her career/earning potential. Plus there seems to be a lot of room for advancement and salary increases in the long term. So I'm pretty happy with the offer, it solves a lot of issues/uncertainties for me. Part of me wants to ask for more salary, because this is the time when I have more leverage to ask for these things, but I'm not really sure what my angle is. It seems like what they're offering me is a competitive base pay for the position, even though it's less than what I'm making now. I'm able to look up the salaries of my colleagues because it's a public university, and they're higher than what I'm being offered, but they all have several years experience in the position. What I'm mostly interested in is relocation money, since I have an expensive and complicated move coming up. Should I just ask for that?
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May 22, 2021 08:24
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e: answered.
Banzai 3 fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 13:42
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dhamster posted:So I have an offer on the table, it's less than i am used to making but it's a new role for me, ostensibly better work life balance, and it's in the same city as my wife's new job, which is a big step forward for her career/earning potential. Plus there seems to be a lot of room for advancement and salary increases in the long term. So I'm pretty happy with the offer, it solves a lot of issues/uncertainties for me. You can ask for both in stages if you want, but if relo is valuable to you then you should ask for it.
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May 22, 2021 19:13
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I’m trying research the pay at the listed grades for B but not having any luck so far. I’m hoping if I pull ~90 after the staffing agency’s cut now (40 hrs) they’ll actually come in decently higher, but not sure it’s kosher to ask at this stage. They will almost certainly come in at less than the 90k you're making now. That's how contract-to-full-time conversions usually work because they are now adding benefits where you were only getting cash compensation before. You might be able to negotiate for them to go up to your current pay, but I doubt that you will be successful at getting them to budge anywhere significantly over 90 and certainly not the 105-110 you're going to try to get Company C to shoot for. If Company C indeed end up being able to offer that much, I'd say that's the route you should take.
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May 24, 2021 13:50
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I managed to avoid giving a salary range and I have now received an offer. Unfortunately it's below my current salary. I realize this is just a starting point for negotiations, but how do I word my counter offer? I would be moving from working for the state to working for a private company, which is usually a large jump in salaries looking at statistics. Do I mention that their offer is below my current salary? Do I justify my counter offer with anything but how valuable I am. Some might say the offer is a bit shameful, but I don't actually want to come across as shaming them for it in my counter offer.
thotsky fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 24, 2021 |
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May 24, 2021 18:43
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m0therfux0r posted:They will almost certainly come in at less than the 90k you're making now. That's how contract-to-full-time conversions usually work because they are now adding benefits where you were only getting cash compensation before. You might be able to negotiate for them to go up to your current pay, but I doubt that you will be successful at getting them to budge anywhere significantly over 90 and certainly not the 105-110 you're going to try to get Company C to shoot for. If Company C indeed end up being able to offer that much, I'd say that's the route you should take. So I just stumbled upon a way to get the range w/ Company B, 41-116. I’m hoping they won’t lowball me, but I guess I won’t be surprised when we get to that stage. Given that I have history with C now and they asked to re-open discussions but appear to have no new offer, what in the world do I even say? I wish the timelines were a bit closer but C will want an answer before B is even very far along in interviews (no reason to expect that I wouldn’t be the front-runner).
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May 24, 2021 19:12
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thotsky posted:I managed to avoid giving a salary range and I have now received an offer. Unfortunately it's below my current salary. I realize this is just a starting point for negotiations, but how do I word my counter offer? I would be moving from working for the state to working for a private company, which is usually a large jump in salaries looking at statistics. Do I mention that their offer is below my current salary? Do I justify my counter offer with anything but how valuable I am. Some might say the offer is a bit shameful, but I don't actually want to come across as shaming them for it in my counter offer. Just tell them you can do it for [x] amount of money, with [x] being whatever you want plus 15% (unless it looks insane with the extra 15%, then just what you actually want). No need to explain why- if they ask or say they're having trouble getting to that, then tell them what they offered was below your current salary.
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May 24, 2021 19:24
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"Thanks a ton for the offer, I would love to join your team. I'm sorry but the salary offered is not realistic for me. I would require $BIG_BUCKS_PLUS_10-15_PERCENT to make this work, can you meet me there?" Gotta be prepared to hold firm and let them walk away. Never, ever, ever take a pay cut, unless it's something like moving from the Bay Area to Tennessee where it would still constitute a raise in terms of spending power or switching from a heinous 1.5 hour commute to work from home, or something along those extreme lines. "I hate my current job" is not adequate reason to take a pay cut, because you have no idea whether or not you will hate the new job too.
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May 24, 2021 19:38
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Yeah just something along the lines of I'm really excited to join the team, I can do it for x salary. Make sure you leave yourself some room for them to talk you down and make sure you don't agree to a cent less than what you predetermined your floor to be to get you to move jobs.
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May 24, 2021 21:23
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asur posted:You can ask for both in stages if you want, but if relo is valuable to you then you should ask for it. I went ahead and made a counter, reiterating my interest in the position while asking for a modest increase in my starting salary as well as some money for relocation assistance. Not sure what to expect, but I figure this is all a bonus since I'd probably be content to take their initial offer as-is.
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May 25, 2021 07:33
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So that senior director thing finally came back to me after so many goddamned interviews with literally everyone, and even a few re-interviews with the same people. They've decided to in fact offer me senior director (instead of the bait-and-switch director thing) @ I see my options like this: * Just accept. Tempted to not do this as literally every time I've negotiated it's worked out well for me, but the hiring manager did say he 'fought for a higher comp' for me on this offer (which seems kinda ridiculous that you'd ever comp a senior director at less than this in a HCOL area, even though this is a remote job) * Counter at $200k-ish. I really, really want to earn $200k because * Counter at my current job. I know this is usually a bad idea, but we just hired another person at the same level on my team and they earn $11k more than I do. Earning $11k more at the chill job seems pretty sweet too, and even if I piss off my current employer I feel pretty confident at finding a similar job pretty quickly.
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May 25, 2021 17:52
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Dying from laughter at the idea a "discretionary bonus" would ever be paid. To be honest, from my seat on the sidelines their behavior throughout this process has put a seriously sour taste in my mouth, and at this point I would be telling them gently caress You, Pay Me or I'm walking. Counter at $200, don't accept a dime less than $195. The longer this process goes the less enthusiastic I get about working for this outfit. Don't accept a counter from your current job. Please don't be that guy. You will get burned.
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May 25, 2021 17:59
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stellers bae posted:So that senior director thing finally came back to me after so many goddamned interviews with literally everyone, and even a few re-interviews with the same people. What about instead of counter at your current job, you just ask for $11k more without disclosing that you have another offer on the table?
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May 25, 2021 18:23
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Mantle posted:What about instead of counter at your current job, you just ask for $11k more without disclosing that you have another offer on the table? I like this idea as a starter
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May 25, 2021 18:39
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It's not a bad idea but my current employer is super bureaucratic - I don't think they'd realistically be able to give me a response within the timeframe that I have to accept/reject the offer.
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May 25, 2021 19:46
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I have not heard back about my counteroffer. I hope my email did not get stuck in the HR software; it's a pain when people use automated emailing systems. Maybe they're letting me sweat. I'll give it another day before trying again.
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May 25, 2021 20:11
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stellers bae posted:It's not a bad idea but my current employer is super bureaucratic - I don't think they'd realistically be able to give me a response within the timeframe that I have to accept/reject the offer. The point is that there is a nonzero chance that they give you $11k, and no downside to asking (since you didn't disclose the other offer). If they say no, and then you immediately give notice that's a pretty strong signal to them to stop dicking their best employees around over $11k which raises the tide for all boats.
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May 25, 2021 21:56
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They got it, they're just dragging their feet. Seems like the HR person does not have authority to negotiate and any statements have to get passed on to management in a different country :\
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May 26, 2021 14:31
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Going to have a conversation with the recruiter in a few hours. Do I need to substantiate my request for $200 versus $180? Because I’m not sure how to do that beside “that’s more in line with what people in these positions normally make”.
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May 26, 2021 15:20
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gently caress that noise. "It would have to be $200K for this to work for me." Trying to justify yourself weakens your position in their eyes, it doesn't strengthen it. You want $200K because that's what you're worth and if they don't want to pay it, their loss. IMO they've already jerked you around more than enough. Time to put up or shut up. Be honest with us, though: have you already decided that if they hold firm at $180 you'll take it?
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May 26, 2021 15:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:gently caress that noise. "It would have to be $200K for this to work for me." Trying to justify yourself weakens your position in their eyes, it doesn't strengthen it. You want $200K because that's what you're worth and if they don't want to pay it, their loss. I'm not gonna take it at $180k. Working super hard for $180k vs. being laid back af at $144k isn't worth it to me.
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May 26, 2021 15:50
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stellers bae posted:I'm not gonna take it at $180k. Working super hard for $180k vs. being laid back af at $144k isn't worth it to me. Tell them you want 240k then. Make it reeeeeeeeeeeeealy worth the job change
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May 26, 2021 16:08
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I’m potentially walking into a timing issue and would appreciate this thread’s advice. I’ve been interviewing for job A. I anticipate final round interviews and an offer communicated to me middle of next week. This job is an improvement and I would be willing to accept. I’ve more recently started the interview process for job B. Job B is a stretch that I never expected to be considered for but have two different teams interested. Comp and benefits would be significantly better than job A, and I am more interested in this job. However, the earliest I would know if I am entering final round interviews is the beginning of the week following next. This is the job I am more interested in. While I am not dying to leave my current job, I would like to leave sooner than later. In a vacuum, job A would be good, but when job B is on the table, I would ideally like to see where that goes. How do I buy myself more time with job A to not lose a positive thing in the uncertainty of trying to evaluate the more valuable and interesting job B? Or am I going to have to make a hard decision, or level with A that they are my second fiddle?
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May 26, 2021 16:45
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stellers bae posted:I'm not gonna take it at $180k. Working super hard for $180k vs. being laid back af at $144k isn't worth it to me.
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May 26, 2021 17:03
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Banzai 3 posted:I’m potentially walking into a timing issue and would appreciate this thread’s advice. If Job A gives you an offer, contact Job B to see if they can expedite their process to getting you an offer. If Job B can't expedite and Job A gives you an offer, take it. If Job B then gives you a great offer after you've accepted Job A, you can tell Job A to take a hike. If the tables were turned and they could significantly benefit from laying you off after you were only there for a week, they'd absolutely do it. You don't owe them anything. For the latter option, there are ways you can finesse it so you aren't necessarily burning a bridge- "This is my dream job and I can't pass it up", etc. May or may not work, but you'll still be making more at Job B so gently caress em.
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May 26, 2021 18:00
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So, they've responded to my counter offer saying they had to "adjust the budget for the role to get as close as we can to your requested number". and that "X is as high as we can go for this particular role" They're still below what I consider my minimum. Overtime compensation is apparently completely off the table, but expected, so I really wanted more. Do I counter offer again with something closer to their offer or do I take them on their word that this is a high as they can go? Does the wording regarding role mean I could argue for a different / expanded role definition or something or am I grasping at straws? I know Americans don't like using offers in negotiation with current employers, but that's pretty common here. I'm already in negotiation with them and will see if I can get them to match it. Would the increased BATNA from such a thing be relevant at all or do I have to take their word for it that they've gone as high as they can (keep in mind I know for a fact that people in equivalent roles are being paid more)?
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May 26, 2021 18:34
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thotsky posted:So, they've responded to my counter offer saying they had to "adjust the budget for the role to get as close as we can to your requested number". and that "X is as high as we can go for this particular role" They're still below what I consider my minimum. Overtime compensation is apparently completely off the table, but expected, so I really wanted more. Do I counter offer again with something closer to their offer or do I take them on their word that this is a high as they can go? Does the wording regarding role mean I could argue for a different / expanded role definition or something or am I grasping at straws? What's not clear is what you actually want. Your offer is for less than what you're currently making, yet you're still considering a move. This indicates to me that there's something other than money motivating you, but it seems like you are only considering salary as part of your BATNA. BATNA is not just about money, it's about your alternative as a whole. If the offer isn't better than your BATNA, you never take it-- this is an objective statement.
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May 26, 2021 19:18
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If it's below your minimum tell them you can't accept the offer. You'll find out real quick if they're bluffing or not when they either say "okay" or suddenly find room in the budget. If the later, congrats, if the former, sorry that you can't switch jobs, but it's better than getting ripped off.
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May 26, 2021 19:41
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Mantle posted:What's not clear is what you actually want. Your offer is for less than what you're currently making, yet you're still considering a move. This indicates to me that there's something other than money motivating you, but it seems like you are only considering salary as part of your BATNA. BATNA is not just about money, it's about your alternative as a whole. Ah, let me be clearer. Their counteroffer is better than my current job, but not by much. I would be taking a big risk by moving at the current offer, for not that much of a reward. I am quite happy with my current job. It's extremely safe. Risk might however be quite fun, but I'd like to be compensated better for taking it. I'm not taking the offer if they can't reach my minimum. After reading some articles, I'm getting the idea that "HR only allows this much for this position" is probably bull, and counter-counter-offer. thotsky fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 26, 2021 |
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May 26, 2021 19:43
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Yeah, my read on this is that they're hoping you're a softy and will cave after getting minimal pushback. Always remember: everything is negotiable. People will lie to your face and say they can't negotiate. They absolutely can.
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May 26, 2021 20:03
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Ok so dumb question: I haven’t been able to get my email back to answer the “what are you looking for/what can we do to make this work?” with company C to sound worth a drat, I’m about to just call the guy (their CEO) and talk to him. I’m no whiz on the phone, but is this a really bad idea?
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May 26, 2021 21:52
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Just dropped my $200k ultimatum and, after (not) explaining myself to the somewhat confused and annoyed recruiter, they'll have an answer back by tomorrow AM. I totally hosed this negotiation by letting slip my current salary as they explicitly targeted a percent increase over what I currently earn, instead of what people at this level actually earn. Let this be a lesson to never do that 
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May 26, 2021 22:16
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You do know that the fact you disclosed your current salary changes everything, right? IMO when they inevitably refuse to budge an inch you should hold firm, let them walk, and stay where you are.
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May 26, 2021 22:22
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and also NEVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN
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May 26, 2021 22:25
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Just playing devil's advocate with myself here, on the other hand, as a pragmatic matter, if you're currently so drastically underpaid that they can offer you a 25% increase and still be under budget, it might be worth biting the bullet and jumping just to get your salary more in line with market
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May 26, 2021 22:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:Just playing devil's advocate with myself here, on the other hand, as a pragmatic matter, if you're currently so drastically underpaid that they can offer you a 25% increase and still be under budget, it might be worth biting the bullet and jumping just to get your salary more in line with market Nah, because next negotiation, they just don't reveal their current salary and it doesn't matter.
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May 26, 2021 23:39
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stellers bae posted:Just dropped my $200k ultimatum and, after (not) explaining myself to the somewhat confused and annoyed recruiter, they'll have an answer back by tomorrow AM. OOF Yeah, I feel like I've hosed up when I've said a number before, but when I've done that it's what I think I should expect to be making, rather than what I'm CURRENTLY making. Which, the answer is: not enough, apparently, because here I am, talking to you, Friend Recruiter  How early in the process did you let that slip? Or what that a recent development? (If you don't mind my asking! Just curious how it played out is all, since I've been following your saga for a bit here.)
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May 26, 2021 23:45
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