|
CitizenKeen posted:Currently trying to picture the union of (a) people I play games with who love crunch, and (b) people who can reliably make it to more than one game. Turn your monitor on
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 12:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 13:51 |
|
|
Cross posting from the KS thread: The Witcher is live. Go get your minis. That said I am probably far more interested in Paris l'Étoile, which looks like it's pulling an AFFO:Norwegians trick and making the base game even better. It also said a magical combination of words I've never heard before, but am suddenly super intrigued by "Custom shaped 4mm thick wooden tiles with heat transfer printing". Wooden bits instead of cardboard? 
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 14:45
|
|
|
Infinitum posted:Cross posting from the KS thread: Is Paris any good? I've never actually heard of the game before the KS for the expansion was announced and I like K&K but this looks like another MWE with lovely components.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 16:36
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:Is Paris any good? I've never actually heard of the game before the KS for the expansion was announced and I like K&K but this looks like another MWE with lovely components. My video (with terrible hair) on Paris. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6gBJ744KI Video on Keyflower should be out this week btw.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 16:51
|
|
|
Mayveena posted:My video (with terrible hair) on Paris. Good video. You should be interested to know that a new version of Palaces of Carrara is launching on KS in December this year.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 17:02
|
|
|
Infinitum posted:Good video. I saw that. May wait for the retail version, unsure, I'll have to see what the KS looks like.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 17:22
|
|
|
Mayveena posted:Video on Keyflower should be out this week btw. I am very keen to hear your opinions on Keyflower.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 18:04
|
|
|
Finally managed to play A Feast for Odin. I did go ahead and use the Norwegians straight away, and don't regret it. Sadly my wife had a bit of a long week and wasn't up to learning the game at the weekend, so I played solo. Enjoyed it so much I played another game straight away. I scored 98 the first time and (using a 1st round strategy I read on BGG to get a whaling boat and 1st round island) managed 134 the second. Both times I aggressively went for income and bonus tiles, but I got the island a round earlier in the second game, and ended up with more boards covered at the end. It's immensely satisfying piecing it all together and seeing your engines grow as the game progresses. Now I just have to try and hold off playing again until the wife is ready to avoid too having too big a headstart when we do play together! I'm curious, does anyone here play 2-player using the 4-player side of the boards, in order to preserve the sandbox feel of the base game?
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 19:01
|
|
|
No, it’s better with the tighter spaces so you have a little tension. Still pretty open and sandbox compared to Agricola
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Finally managed to play A Feast for Odin. I did go ahead and use the Norwegians straight away, and don't regret it. Sadly my wife had a bit of a long week and wasn't up to learning the game at the weekend, so I played solo. Enjoyed it so much I played another game straight away. I scored 98 the first time and (using a 1st round strategy I read on BGG to get a whaling boat and 1st round island) managed 134 the second. Both times I aggressively went for income and bonus tiles, but I got the island a round earlier in the second game, and ended up with more boards covered at the end. It's immensely satisfying piecing it all together and seeing your engines grow as the game progresses. Now I just have to try and hold off playing again until the wife is ready to avoid too having too big a headstart when we do play together! We usually play with the 2 player boards but sometimes will use the 3 or 4 player ones for variety. We arent super competitive though and like to houserule stuff as we go. If one person goes heavy into raiding having 2 spaces to do it each round is a pretty big deal
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
Yeah, I didn't feel too constrained playing solo, with the same amount of action spaces blocked as if it were 2P, though I guess it's slightly better having control of the flow of those spaces than not. I'd heard of people using the other side for 2P, and in a way it appealed, but on the whole I agree it's still pretty open.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Finally managed to play A Feast for Odin. I did go ahead and use the Norwegians straight away, and don't regret it. Sadly my wife had a bit of a long week and wasn't up to learning the game at the weekend, so I played solo. Enjoyed it so much I played another game straight away. I scored 98 the first time and (using a 1st round strategy I read on BGG to get a whaling boat and 1st round island) managed 134 the second. Both times I aggressively went for income and bonus tiles, but I got the island a round earlier in the second game, and ended up with more boards covered at the end. It's immensely satisfying piecing it all together and seeing your engines grow as the game progresses. Now I just have to try and hold off playing again until the wife is ready to avoid too having too big a headstart when we do play together! Nice scores for your first games! We always use the two-player boards except when we manage to trick another one or two people into playing it. It's so odd that it's like pulling teeth trying to get Agricola ride-or-die types to try it and/or like yet (and I think I mentioned this a while ago) we taught the game to another couple almost a year ago whose heaviest experience to date was Monopoly and they grokked onto it like I couldn't believe and loved it. I think there's so much going on in that box that it can be overwhelming and easy to miss the subtleties.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 20:43
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:I am very keen to hear your opinions on Keyflower. Expect to hear the words "Once Seen, Always Seen". 
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 20:49
|
|
|
Memnaelar posted:Expect to hear the words "Once Seen, Always Seen". Booooo
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 21:13
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:Booooo Not my personal preference for that game either, but I've seen Mayveena's thoughts on the topic a few times and just thought I'd drop the teasing comment because I'm 99% sure it'll turn up in her video. I think there's a sound logical basis behind it, but it just *feels* wrong for my tastes.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
Memnaelar posted:Not my personal preference for that game either, but I've seen Mayveena's thoughts on the topic a few times and just thought I'd drop the teasing comment because I'm 99% sure it'll turn up in her video. Yup! Bugged my son to get the editing done, we'll see. Hiding things I've already seen behind shields assumes I'm too stupid to remember what's behind the screen. And while that's true I don't need to be reminded of it
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:10
|
|
|
keeping seen meeples visible is a disrespect to the intent of the game. That's why I don't let anyone use calculators, rules reminders, glasses, or chairs at my games.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:12
|
|
|
I don't like open perfect info in games like Keyflower/T&E/High Society etc because it turns the knobs for some players' brains to full AP while they calculate every move. Memory heuristics in these types of games are simple enough ("I remember player Y got a boat with a lot of red") that it's worth the trade off of unoptimized play to make the game play twice as fast. On the opposite end, someone with perfect memory doesn't have a leg up on other players any more than someone that's played the game more times anyways. I don't see what you gain from open info that makes it worth the slowdown in play.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:25
|
|
|
Is Keyflower perfect info? I thought certain meeples were pulled from the bag in secret? Edit: Yeah, just looked at my rulebook. Keyflower isn't perfect info. I agree that perfect information games shouldn't hide info ("once seen, always seen"), but Keyflower has secret info as well. CitizenKeen fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:39
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I don't like open perfect info in games like Keyflower/T&E/High Society etc because it turns the knobs for some players' brains to full AP while they calculate every move. Memory heuristics in these types of games are simple enough ("I remember player Y got a boat with a lot of red") that it's worth the trade off of unoptimized play to make the game play twice as fast. On the opposite end, someone with perfect memory doesn't have a leg up on other players any more than someone that's played the game more times anyways. I also think there's a certain beauty in "forgetting" what someone did. I dunno. It's a weird argument because, yeah, I get the entire hyperbolic argument behind "well then forbid player aides, glasses and chairs at the table!" and there's logic there, but games test people's skills in a lot of different ways, be it memory, negotiation, spatial awareness, calculation of risk, etc. I think there's a middle ground that needs to be reached between perfect information and completely unassisted skill to make a game enjoyable. That space is going to vary from game to game and, likely, will be perceived differently by different players. For me, with Keyflower, I prefer "once seen, now the screen" to "once seen, always seen" but I don't fault people who feel differently. I'd just prefer to play that game with people who feel the same way I do.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:42
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Is Keyflower perfect info? I thought certain meeples were pulled from the bag in secret? Mayveena likes to play these games with open info. In Keyflower that means the meeples you take from public tiles stay in front of the screen. The topic comes up from time to time with this type of game because some people don't like the memory component of skill these games ask of players. I had a player that was adamant about note taking in High Society and that game just stops functioning if you allow open info, because no one would ever make the bid that makes them the player with the least money left. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:44
|
|
|
Oh, I get that info that's once public should stay public. It's dumb to hide things that you knew once. Glory to Rome says you have to say what you're putting in the vault but nobody (including you) can know what's in your vault. But that's dumb. But Keyflower, some things you take are from public info, and some are secret, and the comingling is important because it then turns the known into the unknown. No Screen Scenario: I take two Red Meeples from the table and put them in front of my screen. I take two (Red) Meeples from the bag and place them behind the screen (secretly). I then spend two Red Meeples from behind the screen. You know I still have two Red Meeples. Screen Scenario: I take two Red Meeples from the table and put them behind my screen. I take two (Red) Meeples from the bag and place them behind the screen (secretly). I then spend two Red Meeples from behind the screen. You don't know if I have any Red Meeples left. Those are two different games.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:50
|
|
|
Impermanent posted:keeping seen meeples visible is a disrespect to the intent of the game. That's why I don't let anyone use calculators, rules reminders, glasses, or chairs at my games. I'm sorry but that's crazy. 18xx games are MEANT to be used with calculators. And as a designer myself, and if you choose to watch the video, you'll see exactly how wrong you are. Tom Lehmann, Richard Breese, Alexander Pfister, Joeren from Splotter, my co-designers, Bruce Harper the project lead on several Avalon Hill games back in the day, have no issue with house rules. I have no idea why you would think that somehow the designers are at your table watching what you do.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:52
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I don't like open perfect info in games like Keyflower/T&E/High Society etc because it turns the knobs for some players' brains to full AP while they calculate every move. Memory heuristics in these types of games are simple enough ("I remember player Y got a boat with a lot of red") that it's worth the trade off of unoptimized play to make the game play twice as fast. On the opposite end, someone with perfect memory doesn't have a leg up on other players any more than someone that's played the game more times anyways. My experience has been the opposite. When they don't know, then they sit there forever trying to remember. When they can see they make their decisions way faster. Also in general (although cons/meetups can change things) I don't play with slow players anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:54
|
|
|
I am currently yelling at my son to get the drat video done as concerns may or may not be addressed in it .
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:54
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I don't like open perfect info in games like Keyflower/T&E/High Society etc because it turns the knobs for some players' brains to full AP while they calculate every move. Memory heuristics in these types of games are simple enough ("I remember player Y got a boat with a lot of red") that it's worth the trade off of unoptimized play to make the game play twice as fast. On the opposite end, someone with perfect memory doesn't have a leg up on other players any more than someone that's played the game more times anyways. Have you played Keyflower with "once seen, always seen"? I have played both ways and the "slowdown" doesn't seem to exist. The "calculation" with the open information amounts to "is 3 > 5?" and takes about as long as surveying one's memory of others' inventories.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:55
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:No Screen Scenario: I take two Red Meeples from the table and put them in front of my screen. I take two (Red) Meeples from the bag and place them behind the screen (secretly). I then spend two Red Meeples from behind the screen. You know I still have two Red Meeples. Players would generally spend the known meeples first if playing open. Slightly changes things but yeah, your overall point is rihgt. homullus posted:Have you played Keyflower with "once seen, always seen"? I have played both ways and the "slowdown" doesn't seem to exist. The "calculation" with the open information amounts to "is 3 > 5?" and takes about as long as surveying one's memory of others' inventories. Yeah, I've tried Keyflower and T&E with open info and hated the changes to both. If I could draw a parallel to another game that had a similar feel it would be Five Tribes. Perfect info on the board state caused players to get lost calculating moves and possible outcomes. T&E probably had a more dramatic effect on a turn to turn basis than Keyflower but the overall playtime was noticeably longer because end of round actions in KF would drag a lot more for us. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 23:02 on May 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 22:58
|
|
|
Mayveena posted:I'm sorry but that's crazy. 18xx games are MEANT to be used with calculators. And as a designer myself, and if you choose to watch the video, you'll see exactly how wrong you are. Tom Lehmann, Richard Breese, Alexander Pfister, Joeren from Splotter, my co-designers, Bruce Harper the project lead on several Avalon Hill games back in the day, have no issue with house rules. I have no idea why you would think that somehow the designers are at your table watching what you do. I'm pretty sure the voice there was presenting those options as "a modest proposal".
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:Players would generally spend the known meeples first if playing open. Slightly changes things but yeah, your overall point is rihgt. I don't think the point is right either. So long as meeples are always spent from the front of the screen first, unknown information will remain unknown exactly as it would with full screening. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think keyflower has any situations where spending open-information meeples gives information about hidden meeples. Such situations would mostly only arise under rules that require trusting the player to follow certain conditional rules without verification, which most hidden-information games rightly avoid (ie "you must spend a red meeple unless you have none, in which case you may spend a yellow meeple").
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:11
|
|
|
Keyflower isn't a game that's fundamentally about memorization, it's not like you've compromised some core facet of the gameplay by removing the memory element. Whichever way of playing yields the better experience for your specific group, is the right way to do it.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:14
|
|
|
FulsomFrank posted:Nice scores for your first games! We always use the two-player boards except when we manage to trick another one or two people into playing it. It's so odd that it's like pulling teeth trying to get Agricola ride-or-die types to try it and/or like yet (and I think I mentioned this a while ago) we taught the game to another couple almost a year ago whose heaviest experience to date was Monopoly and they grokked onto it like I couldn't believe and loved it. I think there's so much going on in that box that it can be overwhelming and easy to miss the subtleties. Thanks - I was really pleased with both. It was fun getting things to balloon more for the higher one. Just really getting tile generation going early, and not being afraid to take another island just before the last turn because I knew I could fill it enough to be worthwhile. I think the first game aside from the home board I filled the Shetlands and a shed (with several emigrations) and the second I filled Isle of Skye, Labrador, a shed and a house, with one emigration thrown in. Had several occuptions both times. I know the Norwegians is meant to have buffed a more animal-focused approach, but it's tricky for me as novice to see how I could score similarly going that way. I'm sure it's entirely possible though, indeed, to score much higher. Might have a try next time round. I'm sure using occupations to their fullest can give a huge boost to most types of strategy. I think learning the game entails a real spike in the work required at the very beginning, but once the information is absorbed it all feels really elegant, given the overall complexity. Pretty cool that a non-gaming couple were able to jump in that smoothly.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:14
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:Players would generally spend the known meeples first if playing open. Slightly changes things but yeah, your overall point is rihgt. I don't think open helps T&E as much as it helps Keyflower so I'd probably agree to closed T&E vs closed Keyflower.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:16
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Oh, I get that info that's once public should stay public. It's dumb to hide things that you knew once. Glory to Rome says you have to say what you're putting in the vault but nobody (including you) can know what's in your vault. But that's dumb. Spoiler  We absolutely play with screens as the opening meeples aren't known and neither are the ones you add from the bags. We also play Paris with once seen always seen and play with the end game chits face up too.
|
|
#
?
May 25, 2021 23:17
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I had a player that was adamant about note taking in High Society and that game just stops functioning if you allow open info, because no one would ever make the bid that makes them the player with the least money left. Taking notes in a 15 minute breezy filler game like High Society seems double goony. Sure, if I had an eidetic memory I'd know you only have a 3, 6 and 15 left, but I don't, so gently caress me. I don't want to win that badly I am willing to be an inconvenience.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 00:16
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:Taking notes in a 15 minute breezy filler game like High Society seems double goony. Sure, if I had an eidetic memory I'd know you only have a 3, 6 and 15 left, but I don't, so gently caress me. I don't want to win that badly I am willing to be an inconvenience. *carefully scribbling down on a notepad every card you pick up in Gin Rummy*
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 00:38
|
|
|
I agree that I am okay with hidden trackable information as a means to prevent AP. Libertalia does it.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
Mayveena posted:I'm sorry but that's crazy. 18xx games are MEANT to be used with calculators. And as a designer myself, and if you choose to watch the video, you'll see exactly how wrong you are. Tom Lehmann, Richard Breese, Alexander Pfister, Joeren from Splotter, my co-designers, Bruce Harper the project lead on several Avalon Hill games back in the day, have no issue with house rules. I have no idea why you would think that somehow the designers are at your table watching what you do. haha yes, as pointed out by someone else earlier I meant this satirically - overall I'm fine with altering rules like that to fit the needs of players at the table (and I need a personally need a calculator to play any game that adds numbers together larger than 5.) But I was talking with someone earlier about this and they mentioned how hiding some information helps reduce AP and I've also seen that, so I would basically take it on a table-by-table basis.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 05:06
|
|
|
Has anyone here played Kings Dilemma? I have a copy and finally lockdown is relaxing here (UK). But we have a choice between playing now with four players or waiting until the next stage of lockdown easing and play with five. Does it need to be five player to get the full experience?
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 08:00
|
|
|
King of Bleh posted:Keyflower isn't a game that's fundamentally about memorization, it's not like you've compromised some core facet of the gameplay by removing the memory element. Whichever way of playing yields the better experience for your specific group, is the right way to do it. The hidden information in Keyflower isn't even the bad part of Keyflower, it's everything else.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 08:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 13:51 |
|
|
Could I get some recommendations for some board games to play with my 5 year old? It'll generally be just me and her playing, with maybe another kid or adult now and then. She likes candy land and has somewhat outgrown the random Haba games that I have. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
May 26, 2021 15:15
|
|
