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Torrannor posted:This is the kind of discussion that inevitably ends with goons claiming that Wiz is a racist, isn't it? If they're getting equal  from tankies here and fascists on Steam they're probably doing their job correctly.
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May 28, 2021 23:06
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My dude Wiz quoted Mao so whoever you think are tankie are not upset
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May 28, 2021 23:07
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DrSunshine posted:If they're getting equal show me a single "tankie" complaint
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May 28, 2021 23:10
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The good news is that they finally got the Vic3 economy working in a way that makes the game mostly playable and fun, even though it breaks if you add China to your market. The bad news is that the only way they could get it to work was by having goods produced within a market get duplicated across the individual markets of each member nation, with a penalty based on foreign investment by countries outside the market.
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May 28, 2021 23:10
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Crazycryodude posted:I don't particularly want a detailed alt-hist world slave trade simulation I just want the US and Brazil to deal with some historical-ish realities of their pre-existing slave populations Don't think of it as wanting a detailed alt-hist world slave trade simulation; just think of it as suggesting a robust system wide applicability and symmetry so modders aren't stuck with mechanics that don't make sense and they can't adjust to suit their needs. Like a robot steampunk mod. Where the production and purchase of steampowered gun turrets who can somehow tell friend from foe might make sense to have a dynamic underlying system.
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May 28, 2021 23:13
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AnEdgelord posted:show me a single "tankie" complaint I was being facetious, but I do remember Wiz being driven off in the old Paradox thread by people going way too far, and accusing him of being a racist while criticizing something -- I think it was the term "Westernization"? Anyway it was a long time ago. EDIT: I just thought it was funny seeing criticism of Paradox games coming from both left and right perspectives, is all. DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 23:28
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AnEdgelord posted:show me a single "tankie" complaint it's p sus that they're showing anarchism to be a viable alternative but i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt
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May 28, 2021 23:29
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DrSunshine posted:I was being facetious, but I do remember Wiz being driven off in the old Paradox thread by people going way too far, and accusing him of being a racist while criticizing something -- I think it was the term "Westernization"? Anyway it was a long time ago. interesting
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May 29, 2021 01:35
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goddammit i hate the liberals and the UK in V2. cruising along toward making colombia a great power when i get hit with the double-whammy of being sphered and forced into laissez faire by a liberal party. now all of my goods sell for pennies to london, my beautiful industrial sector is in freefall, and britain seized a province to make a stupid canal for imperialists game is good can't wait for V3
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May 29, 2021 01:53
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Jazerus posted:goddammit i hate the liberals and the UK in V2. cruising along toward making colombia a great power when i get hit with the double-whammy of being sphered and forced into laissez faire by a liberal party. now all of my goods sell for pennies to london, my beautiful industrial sector is in freefall, and britain seized a province to make a stupid canal for imperialists Avoiding getting sphered before you can build the Panama canal yourself is basically the #1 challenge of a Gran Colombia run.
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May 29, 2021 02:42
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I dont know how you'd deal with at least like, people like Tippu Tip and the polities that he lived in without making some sort of population exchange involving slavery possible. I can understand not wanting to be so simulationist as to model that as well though.
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May 29, 2021 03:14
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vicky II where soviet style communism is objectively the best type of gov being anti tankie is deffo a take
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May 29, 2021 05:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:It'd be interesting to include slavery is a proper contentious issue; especially for megacampaigns where maybe there's alternate histories where slavery is still going strong and its the minority of nations who are trying to fight the slave trade and to make it possible for Abolition to be a more robust mechanic that any nation can try to deal with. I.e see Serfdom in Russia. That said, perhaps serfdom should be just one end of a spectrum dealing with the emancipation of rural laborers, which prevents them from emigrating, with the other end being peasants having ownership over the land they work (thus getting the full profits), the equivalent of the co-ops of urban laborers. The lack of ability to move off the land is probably the most important thing separating serfs and other agricultural laborers in terms of what Vicky models. e: Also the fact that serfdom made it easier for less advanced states to conscript the populace. Administrative reforms making the state less dependent on local landowners is at least the reason why serfdom was ended in Denmark. Serfdom giving a bonus to available recruits until you've sufficiently upgraded your administrative capabilities would be a pretty good way to make the player want to maintain it for a while. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 05:41 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 05:36
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Vasukhani posted:vicky II where soviet style communism is objectively the best type of gov being anti tankie is deffo a take I think from a metagaming perspective, fascism is actually the best type of government in V2 because when they're in power, they'll always support any law changes you want to make, plus you can still manually create and upgrade factories with state capitalism.
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May 29, 2021 05:40
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In the VIP mod for Vicky 1 the serfs were a non accepted culture so they couldn't be promoted to craftsmen or clerks. Once you emancipated them they became an accepted culture.
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May 29, 2021 05:40
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In Vicky any government which gives the player full control is going to be the most effective type. I doubt politics factors into much. It’s why 3 has already been stated that state capitalism is going to be the default in every country. With only the income source being different
CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 09:46 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 09:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That said, perhaps serfdom should be just one end of a spectrum dealing with the emancipation of rural laborers I think something like this would be ideal. If the pop system is able to model complicated interactions of wages, quality of life, political power, migration rights etc. then you would hope that serfdom and slavery could be represented as a particularly extreme set of circumstances within this system rather than requiring a unique mechanic. This would avoid the difficulty of deciding what "counts" as slavery, so the devs can concentrate instead on trying to model the unique circumstances of a given region. (More controversially, it would help demonstrate the continuation of exploitation under different circumstances, rather than assuming that every "non-slave" pop is entirely free.)
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May 29, 2021 10:30
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Yeah, honestly, I think Russian serfs would probably be better modeled as peasants as 'peasants' is a much more useful catch-all for pre-modern subsistence agricultural workers. American chattel slaves are really not in the same category as Russian serfs.
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May 29, 2021 10:34
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, honestly, I think Russian serfs would probably be better modeled as peasants as 'peasants' is a much more useful catch-all for pre-modern subsistence agricultural workers. American chattel slaves are really not in the same category as Russian serfs.
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May 29, 2021 10:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:They pretty much are for the purposes of the game though, unless Paradox has expanded the mechanics. A specific pop for pre-modern agricultural workers was added for victoria 3. That's what peasants are for.
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May 29, 2021 10:58
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Panzeh posted:A specific pop for pre-modern agricultural workers was added for victoria 3. That's what peasants are for.
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May 29, 2021 11:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A serf isn’t just a pre-modern agrucultural worker, they’re a pre-modern agricultural worker who is not free to emigrate or change their class. Well serfdom is not in itself about class. Serfs are form of tenants farmers. In fact the poorest in eastern Europe were not serfs.
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May 29, 2021 12:10
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Yeah even after serfdom was abolished changing class from a tenant farmer was functionally impossible. Serfdom works better as a descriptor for a system not so well for an individual pop
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May 29, 2021 12:20
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Gladi posted:Well serfdom is not in itself about class. Serfs are form of tenants farmers. In fact the poorest in eastern Europe were not serfs. In Russia serfs were also used in industry for a long time. IIRC during the time of Peter the Great tzar has allowed weapon manufactories to buy or rent serfs from aristocracy. Later aristocrats themselves sometimes tried to create businesses. Some serfs became known actors and bought themselves. Some became merchants - aristocrats rarely managed estates themselves and quite often a village would have someone managing selling grain on the market to pay their master. Naturally those people got rich sometimes and even if they didn't they probably stopped being farmers. But of course it's a thing you can easily abstract, restricting serfs to lower classes and making factory worker serfs a rarity.
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May 29, 2021 12:33
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CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah even after serfdom was abolished changing class from a tenant farmer was functionally impossible. Serfdom works better as a descriptor for a system not so well for an individual pop
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May 29, 2021 12:41
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Torrannor posted:This is the kind of discussion that inevitably ends with goons claiming that Wiz is a racist, isn't it? Johan probed me on the Paradox forums in the leadup to V2 because I made fun of how badly Africa was modeled and I will never get over it OctaviusBeaver posted:In the VIP mod for Vicky 1 the serfs were a non accepted culture so they couldn't be promoted to craftsmen or clerks. Once you emancipated them they became an accepted culture. Krepostnoy! That mod ruled, even if it was the height of "it's 1882, here's some free land" style determinism. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 13:14 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 13:10
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ilitarist posted:In Russia serfs were also used in industry for a long time. IIRC during the time of Peter the Great tzar has allowed weapon manufactories to buy or rent serfs from aristocracy. Later aristocrats themselves sometimes tried to create businesses. Some serfs became known actors and bought themselves. Some became merchants - aristocrats rarely managed estates themselves and quite often a village would have someone managing selling grain on the market to pay their master. Naturally those people got rich sometimes and even if they didn't they probably stopped being farmers. But of course it's a thing you can easily abstract, restricting serfs to lower classes and making factory worker serfs a rarity. This makes a good case for having something like a spectrum of bondage status for pops, similar to stellaris's slavery mechanics. Because it sounds like serfs are functionally similar to slaves but with extra steps. That they can be bought/rented in addition to not being free is I think what groups them with chattel slavery. With a spectrum we can also represent the gulags and political prisoners for Proletarian Dictatorships. Vasukhani posted:vicky II where soviet style communism is objectively the best type of gov being anti tankie is deffo a take On the other hand, its also a very inefficient economy with a lot of wasted pops working in unprofitable factories for the sole purpose of "make number bigger" (quotas) and a LF economy with comparable population but with enough sufficient literacy and a critical mass of capitalists is going to outperform planned economy nearly everytime. And of course the constant rebellions a Prol. Dictatorship has to inevitably deal with. I can see it happening because there can be times it hits too close to home.
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May 29, 2021 15:20
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I’m confused your describing LF economies for both those points. Unless thousands of unprofitable clipper factories opening and closing while only one cement factory exists is efficient
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May 29, 2021 15:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:This makes a good case for having something like a spectrum of bondage status for pops, similar to stellaris's slavery mechanics. Because it sounds like serfs are functionally similar to slaves but with extra steps. That they can be bought/rented in addition to not being free is I think what groups them with chattel slavery. Spectra are harder to make game mechanics around though
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May 29, 2021 15:35
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Enjoy posted:Spectra are harder to make game mechanics around though Are you doubting the glory of sliders comrade?  More seriously is you could have something similar to stellaris with drop down boxes and different categories. You could create a dropdown box that even lets you abolish any kind of imprisonment.
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May 29, 2021 15:38
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I mean at that point you have to model the internment camps for the western colonies or the arrests that happened during the war for being dissidents but those are mostly only gonna be useful as role playing and doesn’t accomplish much
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May 29, 2021 15:49
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean at that point you have to model the internment camps for the western colonies or the arrests that happened during the war for being dissidents but those are mostly only gonna be useful as role playing and doesn’t accomplish much Yeah, if we're going to get into spectrums of unfree labor, you really can't ignore the colonies, where even though the colonial power officially banned slavery, debt peonage was very common.
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May 29, 2021 15:56
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, if we're going to get into spectrums of unfree labor, you really can't ignore the colonies, where even though the colonial power officially banned slavery, debt peonage was very common.
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May 29, 2021 15:58
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In the african theatre of the great war, there were a few thousand british, portuguese, and german kia and tens of thousands of "porters" who just so happened to die of extremely natural causes during the campaign, volunteers all of course. They just really loved being subjects of an empire.
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May 29, 2021 16:04
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, if we're going to get into spectrums of unfree labor, you really can't ignore the colonies, where even though the colonial power officially banned slavery, debt peonage was very common. In regards to the main point (representing the unfree labour from colonialism) You can segregate it a bit, like in some cases its because of the Trade Company that's administering the colony right? I think the Belgian Congo being directly administered by the King and being one of the worst atrocities was a bit of an outlier? The choices of whether to integrate the colonies into the home country (like France did, where I think after a point everyone got French citizenship?) or delegated down to dominions; and the process of trying to unfuck up the colonies could be a part of the game's challenge. Do you throw your morality to the winds for a short term benefit now but then probably cost yourself those colonies in independence movements later; or do you immediately try to crack down on the various interests groups that would really like to continue feeding on that and risk anger at home from your elites? CharlestheHammer posted:I mean at that point you have to model the internment camps for the western colonies or the arrests that happened during the war for being dissidents but those are mostly only gonna be useful as role playing and doesn’t accomplish much Internment camps don't make much sense to model as they were largely POW camps or either extremely specific to just one conflict (the Boer War) or took place after the time period of the game. While an early Socialist revolution could happen so it makes sense to model gulags. Where it makes sense to model unfree labour from "western" nations is things like convict colonies like Australia (because there is a non-trivial economic effect). Representing the extraction of wealth/labour from colonies in a similar abstract way makes more sense to me.
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May 29, 2021 16:14
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I mean there was also the US and it’s fairly brutal dealing with the Philippines and if we are assuming early events firing then it should be possible for any country dealing with potential colony break aways
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May 29, 2021 16:24
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean there was also the US and it’s fairly brutal dealing with the Philippines and if we are assuming early events firing then it should be possible for any country dealing with potential colony break aways This actually gives me a thought. What about having something like the "government in exile" mechanic from Hoi4; to represent independence movements? Instead of being a Number That Goes Up (militancy/consciousness); you actually have an AI entity that based on a random seed that determines its outlook, tries to win either more autonomy, or equal rights within the empire all the way to straight up independence (Your Bolivar types vs Sir Wilfred Laurier types). And the more radical the pops get the more changes the AI ticks up towards starting to advocate for independence and a player can play as these movements; and try to combine and take over other movements in a parallel game; imagine being able to play as the Communist International? So the more brutal the player/AI is, the more powerful you as a radical movement gets to recruit militants, conduct an insurrection, and try to break away. But if they play nice, there's a chance to try to get independence movements to stand down and chill as moderates gain legitimacy and slowly become more willing to negotiate for dominion status.
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May 29, 2021 16:43
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:In the african theatre of the great war, there were a few thousand british, portuguese, and german kia and tens of thousands of "porters" who just so happened to die of extremely natural causes during the campaign, volunteers all of course. They just really loved being subjects of an empire. A lot of people simply don't grasp just how much Europeans didn't care about the African as a human being. Raenir Salazar posted:
The French declaring everyone to be French doesn't mean that everyone was equal on the eyes of the government, had equal responsibilities or were even considered citizens in any realistic sense of the term. The Senegalese fought and died in the trenches and the survivors were returned without much care. Independence movements only got enough strength to be an active challenge well after 1936, so the idea of treating the colonies with care, respect and sustainability, while laudable, were simply not the case for any of the Europeans in Africa. It might be a choice in vic3 (I certainly hope so), but for the person who a few pages back wanted an incredibly detailed development of Japanese political society, this is a weird turn into fiction. It's doubly weird to let communist revolutions to open "gulags". The GULAG had no relevant economic contribution to the soviet economy and their peak was during the war, specifically due to prisoners of war. In game terms, what would it accomplish? Let communist states create gulags for economic and political bonuses, which is an absolutely horrifying and whitewash thing to do? Your argument gets even worse on the last argument. Convict colonies in Australia were absolutely meaningless in economic value compared to the millions of Indians and Africans who went through "totally voluntary" labor for the empires in Africa and India, but that doesn't mean they should develop a "coerce millions into legal slavery while pretending it isn't" mechanic. Mozambique was a never ending trading post of human trafficking, in legal Victorian terms. Maybe we shouldn't let Communists create a GULAG system, the fascists create death camps or the capitalists create concentration camps and maybe let's hope they focus on actually making good gameplay that doesn't turn horrifying concrete moments in history into "+3 productivity, -1 unrest". Vasukhani posted:vicky II where soviet style communism is objectively the best type of gov being anti tankie is deffo a take playing as communist Russia and having to deal with creating every single factory myself was hell. I literally let the social democrats coup me just so I could focus on other things. I hope this changes in Vic 3
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May 29, 2021 16:52
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OctaviusBeaver posted:In the VIP mod for Vicky 1 the serfs were a non accepted culture so they couldn't be promoted to craftsmen or clerks. Once you emancipated them they became an accepted culture. Were black Americans an accepted culture?
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May 29, 2021 16:53
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand, its also a very inefficient economy with a lot of wasted pops working in unprofitable factories for the sole purpose of "make number bigger" (quotas) and a LF economy with comparable population but with enough sufficient literacy and a critical mass of capitalists is going to outperform planned economy nearly everytime. And of course the constant rebellions a Prol. Dictatorship has to inevitably deal with. I can see it happening because there can be times it hits too close to home. the factories are supposed to be "unprofitable". they are being run for the benefit of the people not the state, to produce goods for internal consumption. feeding internal consumption and getting industrial points to become/stay a GP are by far the most important role factories play throughout most of the campaign for most tags in V2; you might make more in tax revenue from a late-game LF economy, but it's not flatly superior because the capitalists are very stupid and producing for profit is very volatile so factories close all the time and have to be reopened by pouring money in, which also takes them back to level 1, wasting even more money, and your craftsmen will be constantly facing cycles of unemployment that waste the potential of their labor. admittedly i haven't played as a top-5 great power like the UK or Prussia in years so maybe the conditions are there for a smoothly running LF economy in those tags, but that's a rare exception founded more on the fruits of imperialism than anything superior about LF itself
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May 29, 2021 17:02
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