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Noblesse Obliged posted:left needs to stop making enemies and start making friends IMO by "the left" do you mean people who are frustrated because they are poor and have no power? cuz no one is going to ally with people who have no power, its not a matter of being more polite
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May 29, 2021 15:39
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DariusLikewise posted:if you are mad about homeowners getting money wait until you hear how much money im supposed to get this month for having kids Kids aren't a money making asset that provide stability and are a distinct marker of where you stand in society. I'd rather more government money goes to (poor) people with kids.
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May 29, 2021 15:45
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Virtual Russian posted:Kids aren't a money making asset that provide stability and are a distinct marker of where you stand in society. I'd rather more government money goes to (poor) people with kids. but then they might by a home and you’d have to guillotine them
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May 29, 2021 15:54
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Every time people talk about how they aren't actually rich from their house appreciating 30-300% in the past year or five years or whatever it loving blows my mind. Do you understand you have all kinds of ways to access that equity if you want to? Are you really that financially stupid that you don't understand an appreciating asset is free money? There is a massive industry that revolves around refinancing mortgages and houses so you can take those gains and use it to do whatever the gently caress you want while still living in your house. Half our goddamn economy revolves around this at this point. Just stop with the bullshit. You're not fooling anyone.
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May 29, 2021 15:56
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no one wants to guillotine home owners. we do want to completely ruin your investment though and if you want us to stop complaining you're going to have to swallow that bitter pill
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May 29, 2021 15:57
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Rutibex posted:no one wants to guillotine home owners. we do want to completely ruin your investment though and if you want us to stop complaining you're going to have to swallow that bitter pill I want to ruin it too believe it or not. I don’t think this situation is good for society or for my children or anyone else’s. i don’t want my security to be a matter of good luck. I want it to be a function of a proper society
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May 29, 2021 16:00
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flakeloaf posted:what if airbnb, but it were for independent old people there was an idea (i don't know if it made it all the way to pilot project) in toronto back when airbnb was lobbying real hard to avoid having to take responsibility for loving up the rental market here. you'd pair an old person with a house that they can't really maintain, too big, etc. with a renter in need. i haven't heard about it in years, so i doubt it got very far.
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May 29, 2021 16:01
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day after Pfizer, shoulder is sore but outside of that I don’t feel all that bad, I even had some drinks last night
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May 29, 2021 16:02
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the day after my shot it felt like i had pulled every single muscle in the entire length of the one arm. that was it though, and it was back to normal by the following day
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May 29, 2021 16:04
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Virtual Russian posted:Oh please, I would hope you'd have enough awareness to see that those nearer the bottom rungs of society have been ground to absolute paste this last year while the government steps in to protect homeowners. If ever there was a time to not to try to pretend being "house poor" is the same as being regular poor it is now. Where's this government protection I'm supposed to be getting? Was there a cheque in the mail I missed? Because I've all I've experienced in the last year is a loss of income and constant fear that as an "essential worker" I'm gonna get covid, or get stabbed by a covid denier, all for minimum wage. Rutibex posted:no one wants to guillotine home owners. we do want to completely ruin your investment though and if you want us to stop complaining you're going to have to swallow that bitter pill See I'm fine with the housing bubble popping and every building on the planet dropping wildly in price. This isn't an "investment", its a roof and walls. If it's value drops, the amount of taxes that I, a poor person, struggle to pay will also drop. If every house in this country had its value reduced by 9/10ths, we'd all be better off.
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May 29, 2021 16:09
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i think the argument is the protection you receive as a homeowner is the government helping to maintain and increase the value of the asset you own via policies that continue to inflate housing values nation wide they're protecting your investment, whether or not you personally consider it an investment rather than say a place to live you can say "i don't care about that", and that's fine, but you still own something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars that is appreciating in value significantly every year.
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May 29, 2021 16:13
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infernal machines posted:i think the argument is the protection you receive as a homeowner is the government helping to maintain and increase the value of the asset you own via policies that continue to inflate housing values nation wide yes, and the thing is that even if you only consider it a place to live it is still an appreciating asset that is accumulating wealth under your feet. When someday you inevitably either die or want to move to a new place, even if that's fifty years from now when you have to move to a
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May 29, 2021 16:16
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as someone who does not and will not have access to that, it becomes increasingly difficult to sympathize with complaints about property taxes and the general costs of home ownership. i have no doubts that it's difficult for many, but it's the cost of holding an asset worth more than i'll make in many years, that you also get to live in without concern for capricious landlords. home ownership is incredible privilege, even if it is a pretty common one infernal machines has issued a correction as of 16:27 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 16:23
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nah, just take out a 3% heloc and buy a bunch of consumer bullshit you don't need, and after the bubble pops and they call in your loan, you learn how to turn a smart tv and a persian rug into a serviceable lean-to
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May 29, 2021 16:29
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infernal machines posted:i think the argument is the protection you receive as a homeowner is the government helping to maintain and increase the value of the asset you own via policies that continue to inflate housing values nation wide That is quite true. Like I'm not trying to be callous of people who dont have houses and try and say some "just bootstrap yourself until you have one" bullshit. I know the housing market is hosed, the whole industry is hosed, and I'm extremely lucky to be a poor person who's income isn't just supplementing some boomer's retirement. But just because I have access to this doesn't mean I'm not a front line worker who's struggling to pay bills, and who's mental and physical health has rapidly deteriorated during this pandemic.
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May 29, 2021 16:31
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infernal machines posted:as someone who does not and will not have access to that, it becomes increasingly difficult to sympathize with complaints about property taxes and the general costs of home ownership. Complaining about being asked to fund the purchase of weapons of war for the police is good and just; other complaints about property taxes are invalid. I'd wager the bulk of the complaints are from people who don't recognize the duty their privilege places on them to help the less-fortunate by funding municipal services. RARGH BLARGH WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR THE STUPID BUS; that kind of poo poo.
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May 29, 2021 16:36
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i don't even mean the "why the hell do i have to pay property taxes?" kind of complaints, which are just lol. i mean that while i can appreciate the difficulty in finding more money every year to keep up with the increasing valuation of your home, it's difficult for me personally to sympathize with your plight since, well, rent goes up every year too and i'm not sitting on something worth a decade's wages at the end of the day. i understand that it's a struggle for many and no doubt a constant source of stress. otoh the whole reason you have to pay more is because the thing you own keeps going up in value and welp.
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May 29, 2021 16:42
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Fashionable Jorts posted:See I'm fine with the housing bubble popping and every building on the planet dropping wildly in price. This isn't an "investment", its a roof and walls. If it's value drops, the amount of taxes that I, a poor person, struggle to pay will also drop. I agree with this. I just don't get the obvious resentment (or blame) directed towards people who literally did nothing to see the value of their home appreciate. Just seems the sentiment expressed itt is it's preferable everyone rent and be mad at landlords together (in solidarity!) than for everyone to own a home  "If I can't have it, why should you?"  doesn't make you a leftist, it makes you a crab in a bucket
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May 29, 2021 16:42
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okay, but as noted, the class division is quite literally "home ownership", so idk where you are with solidarity there
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May 29, 2021 16:45
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:I agree with this. I just don't get the obvious resentment (or blame) directed towards people who literally did nothing to see the value of their home appreciate. Just seems the sentiment expressed itt is it's preferable everyone rent and be mad at landlords together (in solidarity!) than for everyone to own a home People itt who own homes may not be representative of home owners as a general political bloc, who tend to be quite conservative about anything that might affect their property values, since their property values are what keep them in the homeowning middle class and facilitate their ongoing wealth accumulation and intergenerational transfer.
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May 29, 2021 16:51
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flakeloaf posted:Complaining about being asked to fund the purchase of weapons of war for the police is good and just; other complaints about property taxes are invalid. I'd wager the bulk of the complaints are from people who don't recognize the duty their privilege places on them to help the less-fortunate by funding municipal services. RARGH BLARGH WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR THE STUPID BUS; that kind of poo poo. That’s presuming those people are paying for the bus at all: https://www.thestar.com/local-stoney-creek/opinion/2021/05/24/hamilton-needs-to-evolve-beyond-area-rating.html?itm_source=parsely-api
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May 29, 2021 16:55
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Ahh yes, stock traders who are renting penthouse suites downtown Vancouver for $5k/month are definitely lower class than the people in my neighbourhood who own their 900 sq ft houses.
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May 29, 2021 16:56
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infernal machines posted:okay, but as noted, the class division is quite literally "home ownership", so idk where you are with solidarity there Making it about what you are vs what you believe in is the kind of purity test that only serves to cleave people away from common cause, which the left time and again is wont to do
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May 29, 2021 16:58
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RBC posted:Every time people talk about how they aren't actually rich from their house appreciating 30-300% in the past year or five years or whatever it loving blows my mind. Do you understand you have all kinds of ways to access that equity if you want to? Are you really that financially stupid that you don't understand an appreciating asset is free money? There is a massive industry that revolves around refinancing mortgages and houses so you can take those gains and use it to do whatever the gently caress you want while still living in your house. Half our goddamn economy revolves around this at this point. Just stop with the bullshit. You're not fooling anyone. Sounds like you would choose to make the problem worse were you in that situation. I am making a different choice.
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May 29, 2021 17:01
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i get that everyone loves to be real obtuse when it comes to class divisions, but you can at least acknowledge that ownership of a high value appreciating asset is one of them. it isn't the only one, it may not even be an important one in many cases, but it is a significant difference in "wealth" in our society. i don't have any malice or ill will towards people who own their home, in this thread or otherwise, i'm just pointing out that this is a division that exists and means that in certain cases the hypothetical homeowners interests will be very different from mine.
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May 29, 2021 17:07
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vyelkin posted:yes, and the thing is that even if you only consider it a place to live it is still an appreciating asset that is accumulating wealth under your feet. When someday you inevitably either die or want to move to a new place, even if that's fifty years from now when you have to move to a New homeowners don't realize appreciated assets. That's most people's grandparents. In the last decade the cost of replacement or new construction offsets any change in value. Borrowing off of home equity is either a sign of wealth and stability or of circling the drain financially. My mortgage is going to be paid off in 7.5 years. I have 10-15 more years of being able to work like I am for the median wage. Then my kids will most likely have to live in it and I will die. Living the loving dream friend.
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May 29, 2021 17:09
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I'm a renter and I say kill 'em all 
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May 29, 2021 17:12
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Nobody: Posters itt: my 6 figures of equity in an appreciating asset is actually bad, because,
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May 29, 2021 17:12
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The thing is I'm not confident the market is on a permanent upward trajectory. I think (I certainly hope) there'll be a crash to level out the playing field, and that the ordinary people wiped out or put underwater by that won't still be the subject of undue scorn. Most people are bystanders to this and aren't scheming to profit off human misery like the actual architects of the system do. Have vs Have not is not such a simple distinction as "do they have this one thing y/n, no other aspects considered or examined" Also whoever's talking about reverse mortgages being some store of free money, lol. Probably one of the worst things you can do
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May 29, 2021 17:15
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Making it about what you are vs what you believe in is the kind of purity test that only serves to cleave people away from common cause, which the left time and again is wont to do Material conditions very strongly influence behavior regardless of what beliefs people claim to hold in their heart of hearts. Recognizing privilege is the absolute baseline for someone in higher strata expressing solidarity. Call that "purity" if you want, but the alternative is movements get co-opted and killed by moderate "allies" who won't accept any sort of shift in the status quo.
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May 29, 2021 17:15
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drat horror queefs posted:Nobody: Working class people don't think like landlords. It's not an appreciating asset if you don't realize it. Conditioning society to see homes as appreciating assets is the entire problem.
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May 29, 2021 17:17
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:The thing is I'm not confident the market is on a permanent upward trajectory. I think (I certainly hope) there'll be a crash to level out the playing field, it's been about 25 - 30 years depending on where you live, but yeah, one day. Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Working class people don't think like landlords. It's not an appreciating asset if you don't realize it. Conditioning society to see homes as appreciating assets is the entire problem. the point is whether you "realize" those potential gains (in any sense of the word), they're still there. just because you don't acknowledge them doesn't mean that you don't have access to them if and when there's a reason to do so. as opposed to people who literally do not have that. infernal machines has issued a correction as of 17:20 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 17:17
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I demand that anyone not residing in a drainage ditch must wear sackcloth and spread ashes in their hair for Crimes Against Socialism
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May 29, 2021 17:20
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i live in a rather nice barrel by the roadside
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May 29, 2021 17:21
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drat horror queefs posted:Nobody: I think I can recognize that what may be personally good for me, is actually really bad for society as a whole.
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May 29, 2021 17:24
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infernal machines posted:it's been about 25 - 30 years depending on where you live, but yeah, one day. Realize means receiving money. You've described a situation where I should feel happy for no reason other than abstract feels towards number up. Lmao.
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May 29, 2021 17:25
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Working class people don't think like landlords. It's not an appreciating asset if you don't realize it. Conditioning society to see homes as appreciating assets is the entire problem. yes they do, all the boomers are counting on being able to sell their house in order to afford retirement. if house prices crash than 20 years of poor credit choices are going to bite all of them in the rear end very hard
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May 29, 2021 17:26
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Rutibex posted:yes they do, all the boomers are counting on being able to sell their house in order to afford retirement Thats not being a landlord that's selling an asset.
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May 29, 2021 17:26
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infernal machines posted:it's been about 25 - 30 years depending on where you live, but yeah, one day. The only sane reason I can think of to do that would be to pay for some wildly expensive medical treatment, and that's more of a condemnation of the way the public health care system is funded (RAISE OUR TAXES). I mean, there's the "fix a thing wrong with the house whose value funds the repair" but that's not a peril that threatens people who do not own [some of] a home.
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May 29, 2021 17:27
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Realize means receiving money. You've described a situation where I should feel happy for no reason other than abstract feels towards number up. Lmao. You only realize gains from insurance when you make a claim. Until then it's just numbers on a paper. Yet would you claim that the difference between having and not having insurance is unsubstantial because it's an abstract difference?
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May 29, 2021 17:28
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