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ninjewtsu posted:hey, was the alban in the after credits bit the racist uncle? don't get much of a look at him but they both have the same facial hair and the other facial details seem similar too Racist uncle?
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May 31, 2021 08:26
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ninjewtsu posted:hey, was the alban in the after credits bit the racist uncle? don't get much of a look at him but they both have the same facial hair and the other facial details seem similar too Do you mean in the scene with Shin and his brother? That's likely their Alban adoptive father.
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May 31, 2021 08:32
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Conspiratiorist posted:Racist uncle? yeah lena's uncle who's also a military officer who spent a decent chunk of this episode explaining why he doesn't help the 86 Kanos posted:Do you mean in the scene with Shin and his brother? That's likely their Alban adoptive father. yeah but is that the same dude
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May 31, 2021 08:39
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah but is that the same dude No, different guy.
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May 31, 2021 08:44
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I like the show but I'm getting really annoyed with Lena. If she doesnt get her poo poo together and do something, I don't think I can watch the rest. Please either start killing the Nazis or stop wasting my time. Also, Anette is a piece of poo poo, gently caress her.
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May 31, 2021 09:10
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I might be running against the general consensus, but I actually enjoy that the show is spending so much time on Lena having to come to terms with how much of a piece of poo poo she unintentionally was, and having to slowly realize that even the people she loves and respects are horrible pieces of poo poo and the system she works for is fundamentally evil and almost impossible to change on her own. It's a surprisingly grounded approach to how endemic racism is in reality. I think it would honestly make me like the show less if she could just convince people to not be racist with anime protagonist rhetoric, or if she could just bust in and kill A Racist Leader Dude to fix the racism.
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May 31, 2021 09:19
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Kanos posted:I might be running against the general consensus, but I actually enjoy that the show is spending so much time on Lena having to come to terms with how much of a piece of poo poo she unintentionally was, and having to slowly realize that even the people she loves and respects are horrible pieces of poo poo and the system she works for is fundamentally evil and almost impossible to change on her own. It's a surprisingly grounded approach to how endemic racism is in reality. I think it would honestly make me like the show less if she could just convince people to not be racist with anime protagonist rhetoric, or if she could just bust in and kill A Racist Leader Dude to fix the racism. I agree with all this pretty much, I don't want Lena to actually solve racism, because that would be dumb. But I want her to do something, instead of whining to her uncle and making sappy speeches to the 86. Like, idk, maybe she stages an escape attempt, or illegally sends support to the 86, and she gets punished by being sent to the front lines, finally becoming equal to the 86. Anything really, any act of defiance. Otherwise we're just watching Tale of a Good Nazi: the Anime, and I don't have time for that bullshit.
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May 31, 2021 09:45
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ninjewtsu posted:hey, was the alban in the after credits bit the racist uncle? don't get much of a look at him but they both have the same facial hair and the other facial details seem similar too I think it was Annete's dad the one who killed himself cause of his guilt.
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May 31, 2021 09:54
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Kanos posted:I might be running against the general consensus, but I actually enjoy that the show is spending so much time on Lena having to come to terms with how much of a piece of poo poo she unintentionally was, and having to slowly realize that even the people she loves and respects are horrible pieces of poo poo and the system she works for is fundamentally evil and almost impossible to change on her own. It's a surprisingly grounded approach to how endemic racism is in reality. I think it would honestly make me like the show less if she could just convince people to not be racist with anime protagonist rhetoric, or if she could just bust in and kill A Racist Leader Dude to fix the racism. I think you're correct. Its one of the more realistic portrayals of someone coming to terms with the fact their entire worldview is actually atrocious that I've seen in a show like this for quite some time. Its a very accurate portrayal of how she keeps going to her friends and loved ones because 'They just can't know what its like, if I explain it to them they'll agree with me' and then its shot into the floor because no, they know all about it and are just okay. Because thats what keeps their lives comfortable. I don't want a typical Gundam Princess speech that makes them all change their minds and rise up against the evil government because that's not how things like this work. The wider society have to be complicit in something like this for it to happen. And we have seen that the average Alba person not only believes the governments propaganda about the 86, but actively try and enforce it themselves. grate deceiver posted:I agree with all this pretty much, I don't want Lena to actually solve racism, because that would be dumb. But I want her to do something, instead of whining to her uncle and making sappy speeches to the 86. Like, idk, maybe she stages an escape attempt, or illegally sends support to the 86, and she gets punished by being sent to the front lines, finally becoming equal to the 86. Anything really, any act of defiance. Otherwise we're just watching Tale of a Good Nazi: the Anime, and I don't have time for that bullshit. Shes 16 and doing everything she can think of. Shes tried her uncle as he's the only parental figure she's known for a decade. Shes tried her best friend. She's tried going behind her superiors back to get the 86 supplies. She isn't sat their doing nothing. What we're seeing is a increase in her resistance to the Alba message and now shes out of options we might get something more drastic. Again, its just a very believable progression from where the character started out. serious gaylord fucked around with this message at 13:24 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 13:21
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Yeah, Lena is constantly making an active effort to try everything she can and learn everything she can. This episode was just her learning what is truly necessary and possible if she seriously wants to help Spearhead, and I assume next episode will be where she swings into action using the few resources she knows she can trust.
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May 31, 2021 14:30
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grate deceiver posted:I agree with all this pretty much, I don't want Lena to actually solve racism, because that would be dumb. But I want her to do something, instead of whining to her uncle and making sappy speeches to the 86. Like, idk, maybe she stages an escape attempt, or illegally sends support to the 86, and she gets punished by being sent to the front lines, finally becoming equal to the 86. Anything really, any act of defiance. Otherwise we're just watching Tale of a Good Nazi: the Anime, and I don't have time for that bullshit. She's been doing what is in her power to try to ease the 86s' burden emotionally - she speaks to them like they're human beings now and doesn't talk down to them or patronize them, and she's shown bribing a requisition officer to smuggle them a small crate of fireworks so they could actually have a holiday celebration and a proper sendoff for their dead friends. It's not much, but it's more than any of the other fascists have ever done for them, and they are shown to actually appreciate her efforts even when she's not talking to them. As far as her whining to her uncle, she's an altruistic kid who fundamentally believes in her heart that her country reflects the values it was founded on, and that friend and her uncle are good people who simply need to be roused to action, and if she only begs them earnestly enough, or presents enough information about how the 86s are actually good people who deserve help, or explains logically and concisely enough how there is practical military benefit in assisting the 86s, she can surely win them over to her side. The point of this episode was to hammer home, brutally and with finality, that no, they're not good people, and no reasoned, logical argument is going to penetrate the walls they've built. She understands now, irrevocably, that there's no one she can depend on to fix this for her and she's going to have to come up with something herself. As for her getting caught and shipped off to the front lines and away from any position to actually affect the situation, that's pretty much the opposite of what I want. It would mean that all of this buildup would be for nothing, the fascists win(until the robots break them and everyone dies), and the moral would be "there's no point in resisting entrenched racism in power because you won't change it at all and it will get your life ruined if you do, so just go with the flow if you're lucky enough to have the right skin color".
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May 31, 2021 14:42
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i was nearly put off the show by the stupid uniform Lena wears, but the reveal that magnolia is a fascist society explained it nicely. it's a uniform designed to look good during a victory parade or on a poster, completely impractical in any kind of field exercise, just the way the SS like it. read this poo poo: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3950461&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post510517644 and you'll never look at those stupid garter hooks the same way again thatbastardken fucked around with this message at 15:10 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 15:05
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It's a twelve episode series (yes I know theres another twelve episodes coming later) you can't expect Lena to have her "Hans, are we the Baddies?" moment at like episode 2. Seeing as last episode seemed to set up the Final Boss fight for the season, it seem obvious that this is the point here Lena will try to do something more substantial.
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May 31, 2021 16:04
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This show is really good, and is making me want to pick up the novels. Waiting every week for the next episode is tough! Is it true that a second cour has been confirmed?
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May 31, 2021 16:40
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yes it's a split 2-cour show. hasn't been announced yet whether the second half will be ready for fall season
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May 31, 2021 17:49
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I'd assume if it's happening in the fall there will be a teaser of some kind announcing such at the end of s1's final episode
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May 31, 2021 17:55
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ninjewtsu posted:yeah lena's uncle who's also a military officer who spent a decent chunk of this episode explaining why he doesn't help the 86 That's not racism, it's defeatism. thatbastardken posted:i was nearly put off the show by the stupid uniform Lena wears, but the reveal that magnolia is a fascist society explained it nicely. As we aren't shown San Magnolia having a strongman-style leadership or worshipping the military - which by all indications seem to be subordinate to the civilian government - I'd refrain from calling it a fascist society. It seems to be an ethnocentrist liberal democracy.
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May 31, 2021 19:35
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I think the big thing is the theme about using drones and "push button" pilots. The military by all accounts seems to be viewed contemptuously, as a place for failchildren and is a dead end that won't help you get a good job in the civilian sector after the war ends. Lena was specifically warned about this by Annette. There seems to be an undercurrent theme about how by outsourcing the military, have made themselves as a society weak; and whats left of the military is hollowed out and staffed by people who just wanna party. It kinda feels like you had at the end stage of the Ming dynasty but was an liberal democracy that didn't care for anything that disturbed the image of the perfect country.
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May 31, 2021 19:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think the big thing is the theme about using drones and "push button" pilots. The military by all accounts seems to be viewed contemptuously, as a place for failchildren and is a dead end that won't help you get a good job in the civilian sector after the war ends. Lena was specifically warned about this by Annette. That'd be part of it. Willing to look the other way both out of convenience and, charitably, in response to the national trauma of losing an entire generation in the outset of the conflict, San Magnolia expelled their "undesirables" to set up as proxies to fight their battles for them, while their own ostensibly high-tech military languishes in corrupt apathy as the citizenry lost interest in the war they did their hardest to push out of their minds. While one could read some sort of Japanese jingoistic messaging here re outsourcing the military, I'm more inclined to believe it's commentary on the ease with which most modern liberal democracies, while spouting high-minded values, are willing to look away from their messes, be it oppression of their underclasses or the military conflicts they get involved in (so long as it's not *their* people dying). Characters like Jerome and Annette highlight how, realistically, you don't need to be a turboracist to contribute to such systems - you need merely be willing to live out your life looking the other way, in both their cases achieved by in despair internalizing that the world is too big and hosed up for them to change. All the life advice Annette gives Lena? Exact same energy as friendly "just stop watching the news and take care of yourself" advice for people who comment on feeling depressed over Climate Change or the Israel-Palestine conflict etc.
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May 31, 2021 20:10
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Conspiratiorist posted:While one could read some sort of Japanese jingoistic messaging here re outsourcing the military Oh my god. That's kinda brilliant. The 86 are Gaijin/Americans/Other Asians who want to live in Japan and be seen as equal. San Magnolia is Japan. Japan promises it'll be nice if they take care of their defence burden for them. The Legion is China, who steals IP and military technology to improve their own military and is increasingly more capable at possibly breaking through each year to the point that the US Navy might no longer be able to stop them; leaving Japan wide open (Taiwan is the bait). I assume this kind of mapping is completely coincidence and I assume 86 author isn't like GATE's author; so I can find this amusing instead of disturbing.
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May 31, 2021 20:18
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IIRC, the opening established that every nation mostly relies on drones for warfare, with the Legion only being unusual for their extreme autonomy. The 86 plan was just San Magnolia replacing their Juggernauts' crappy, primitive AI cores with human pilots and pretending it was a technological advance. They weren't traumatised by mass Alban casualties, but by the possibility of mass Alban casualties.
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May 31, 2021 20:20
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Darth Walrus posted:IIRC, the opening established that every nation mostly relies on drones for warfare, with the Legion only being unusual for their extreme autonomy. The 86 plan was just San Magnolia replacing their Juggernauts' crappy, primitive AI cores with human pilots and pretending it was a technological advance. They weren't traumatised by mass Alban casualties, but by the possibility of mass Alban casualties. I'm not sure, I think we're supposed to take Annetts marriage difficulties as most males her age being dead like post-WW1 france.
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May 31, 2021 20:21
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San Magnolia totes had a conventional army, and it got loving bodied in the opening stages of the war. The Juggernauts themselves are reverse-engineered from recovered Legion frames; despite how janky they look, they really are the top of the line of the Republic's military tech. That's how outclassed their army was (and still is) by Legion.
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May 31, 2021 20:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not sure, I think we're supposed to take Annetts marriage difficulties as most males her age being dead like post-WW1 france. Annette looked like she was like, seven when the purge of the 86 happened.
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May 31, 2021 21:03
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Conspiratiorist posted:As we aren't shown San Magnolia having a strongman-style leadership or worshipping the military - which by all indications seem to be subordinate to the civilian government - I'd refrain from calling it a fascist society. when the state is running death camps for ethnic minorities and dissenters that seems like a distinction without a difference.
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May 31, 2021 22:31
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thatbastardken posted:when the state is running death camps for ethnic minorities and dissenters that seems like a distinction without a difference. Fascism has a definition though and as depicted San Magnolia doesn't really meet most of Eco's 14 points. It meets arguably, maybe like 5. Cult of Tradition, Fear of Difference, maybe Obsession with a plot, the enemy is strong and weak, and maybe newspeak.
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May 31, 2021 23:49
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There's a difference in which societies are being criticized by the allegory
ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 23:54 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 23:51
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Listen we know they are terrible and horrible, despite matter too much. What words are used for their horribleness? Also on other things, I am surprised Spearhead is down to it's last five members. Though I was also kind of shocked at Daiya and Haruto's sudden deaths. (Haruto particularly cause it was almost off screen)
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Jun 1, 2021 02:19
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5 people left had me pretty confused until i put together that the artillery fire the previous episode killed 4 people in one scene
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Jun 1, 2021 06:24
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The couple of shots in the last episode after the artillery that still have those four in them do not help with that. One of them even has a speaking line.
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Jun 1, 2021 06:33
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LibrarianCroaker posted:The couple of shots in the last episode after the artillery that still have those four in them do not help with that. I think the artillery multi-kill was a flash-forward that happened chronologically after this scene, but the show has been kind of vague about skipping around the timeline.
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Jun 1, 2021 06:39
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It's very confusingly executed, since the artillery strike is the only thing in the episode that seems like it would cause Lena's freakout about them needing reinforcements immediately, but. There's just nine members of spearhead alive there. So like you said, the artillery multikill has to come after that.
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Jun 1, 2021 06:50
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I'm expecting the heaps of death to be subverted a bit by the five remaining Spearhead members all living through the coming battle and finishing off Shin's brother, though I expect most of them (Shin for sure) to be really beat up and bloody from it. With them taking all those supplies with them and being sent on a suicide mission anyway, I think they'll take advantage of the disruption when a Shepherd is killed to book it like hell to the east and blow the lid on these fascists to another nation, while also pointing out that they've got valuable resources that should be commandeered and put to better use. Lena's gonna come up clutch in the coming battle and put either those mortars she talked about before or some other kind of artillery support into play for Spearhead, probably by doing some kind of hacking that'll let her control it remotely (which I guess would eliminate the mortars as a possibility, since the hangup there was that Alba had to be put into ~danger~ firing stuff from waaaay behind the battle lines). I totally want to see her in her command room going FULL LELOUCH and hitting all the keys while the displays go crazy as she does wild techie stuff to help them out. Artillery support is also a way to turn their weakness (low numbers) into an advantage, since friendly fire should be much less of an issue. Maybe Fido will bite the dust heroically saving the team? I think having a friendly ai save them from the evil ai would be a fun moment. Now that we know the Legion's working on that insane artillery tech and they aren't about to all run out of juice, and Magnolia hasn't been using proper military tactics at all (no fire support for 86's, send em' on suicide missions we've got plenty more!), Magnolia is for sure doomed to some degree in the very near future. I expect robots will be swarming through a big hole in the wall in no time, and that development seems like a solid cliffhanger to put at the end of the cour and pick up from at the start of the next one. We've got a few episodes to go after all, and while the coming battle could stretch across two episodes I feel like it'll be done in one. Honestly, the way to make this series way more interesting the second cour would be to have the fascists held accountable (robots kill a bunch of them and what they've done becomes known on the world stage) and then the gears shift to another nation (or alliance of nations, man what a wild thing it'd be if the future U.N. forces show up and freak out over this Magnolia situation) totally taking over Magnolia with fancier robots of their own (and I certainly wouldn't turn down full Gundam-style mobile suits for that, though they'd seem out of place here. I'm thinking something that's still scuttling around the ground, but with cooler high-tech elements to it). Then this new nation shames the Albas a bunch, probably occupies them or implements measures (since it'll still be a desperate situation) that make the new nice nation have some shades-of-grey to them, and we'll get to see Lena in the mix with actual competent commanders and soldiers (and in an environment where she'll face prejudice since she's "the good Nazi" but the people who she's fighting with are disgusted by what her nation and people have done). If it goes down like that, I really hope the robots breach the walls before Magnolia finds out the cavalry's coming to help them. This show has been plenty dark already. I really don't want or need to see a rushed attempt at killing all the 86's and trying to hide the bodies, and I think that becomes a much lower priority to the Republic if they're already being swarmed by killer robots. If that swarming is across the whole perimeter though I think the 86's would be doomed anyway, so maybe it'll just be one big hole in the wall/gap in the defenses, similar to the wall breach at the start of Attack on Titan? Oh, and you may as well have Lena start turning into an ace pilot as well because why the hell not, that sounds like a good time and a scene with Lena and Shin doing an insane battlefield ballet together would be a lot of fun. Anyway, those are my theories for where things could go and what I think would be cool to see. I think the story possibilities of the current status quo are pretty much used up, but the overall story and setting still have a lot of interesting elements.
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Jun 1, 2021 06:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:Fascism has a definition though and as depicted San Magnolia doesn't really meet most of Eco's 14 points. It meets arguably, maybe like 5. Cult of Tradition, Fear of Difference, maybe Obsession with a plot, the enemy is strong and weak, and maybe newspeak. I'd definitely add Disagreement is Treason with the reaction to Lena trying to talk around the students, Contempt for the Weak is evident in the attitude towards the 86 and Selective Populism from general uncle claiming the will of the people without evidence. 8/13 is good enough for me to call it. MonsterEnvy posted:Listen we know they are terrible and horrible, despite matter too much. What words are used for their horribleness? in the case of fiction it doesn't matter at all, but it's interesting to talk about. the show is trying to say something about society and there are a couple of different ways to interpret that message.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:31
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So given the plot twist that Shin’s brother is “alive” in psychotic robot form I wonder if that’s how the legion went rogue and started harvesting brains. Say one of the engineers responsible for designing the Legion thought it would be a great idea to use actual human brains as the core of the Shepherd units and then they went all Robocop 2 on them.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:36
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thatbastardken posted:I'd definitely add Disagreement is Treason with the reaction to Lena trying to talk around the students, Contempt for the Weak is evident in the attitude towards the 86 and Selective Populism from general uncle claiming the will of the people without evidence. The important thing that is missing is the cult of manhood, a worship of death, an obsession with blooding your society to demonstrate your warfighting prowess. This is missing from Alban culture and the Republic. Which leads me to conclude that this is a racist devolved liberal democracy, not explicitly fascism. It's not the only show whose society demonstrate these characteristics, Shinsekai Yori was terrifyingly totalitarian yet is also less fascist, and more of a devolved liberalism.
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Jun 1, 2021 10:09
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LibrarianCroaker posted:The couple of shots in the last episode after the artillery that still have those four in them do not help with that. I thought there was another artillery strike at the start of 8 that killed the last four.
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Jun 1, 2021 14:39
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thatbastardken posted:I'd definitely add Disagreement is Treason with the reaction to Lena trying to talk around the students, Contempt for the Weak is evident in the attitude towards the 86 and Selective Populism from general uncle claiming the will of the people without evidence. I think the show has been a bit unclear just what exactly the consequences are for protesting the actions of the government; I vaguely remember that maybe Anya was an Alban whose family was arrested but I don't remember for sure. While lena is simply being refused/stonewalled and doesn't seem to actually be risking her life/freedoms by doing what she's doing (yet). If Lena's dad could simply have been arrested for his lobbying on behalf of the 86 I think they would have instead of (presumably) being killed via a conspiracy. Contempt for the Weak doesn't really fit when Alban society basically seem like silver haired elves who detest the very idea of risking human life in war. Something fascists governments live to die for. I'll grant selective populism but mainly due to the way they do have total control of information and the subsequent TV broadcasts but this is less necessary if they actually still have elections and the people actually might be on board with it?
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Jun 1, 2021 17:30
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lena tried shocking people with the harsh truth that the unmanned drones actually had 86 pilots and they didn't really care. it's an open secret that doesn't make waves because the premise that 86's aren't human is widely accepted.
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Jun 1, 2021 17:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:I think the show has been a bit unclear just what exactly the consequences are for protesting the actions of the government; I vaguely remember that maybe Anya was an Alban whose family was arrested but I don't remember for sure. While lena is simply being refused/stonewalled and doesn't seem to actually be risking her life/freedoms by doing what she's doing (yet). If Lena's dad could simply have been arrested for his lobbying on behalf of the 86 I think they would have instead of (presumably) being killed via a conspiracy. You mean Anju? She is half Alba. Shin and Haruto's families were said to be from the Empire originally though they were born in San Magnolia. Also I took at look at some supplemental details on the Legion Drones and man the Self Propelled Mines that killed Daiya are probably the closest to Warcrime stuff the Legion does. 
MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 18:27
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