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Raenir Salazar posted:I think the show has been a bit unclear just what exactly the consequences are for protesting the actions of the government; I vaguely remember that maybe Anya was an Alban whose family was arrested but I don't remember for sure. While lena is simply being refused/stonewalled and doesn't seem to actually be risking her life/freedoms by doing what she's doing (yet). If Lena's dad could simply have been arrested for his lobbying on behalf of the 86 I think they would have instead of (presumably) being killed via a conspiracy. Anju I think has been mentioned as being part-Alban, which apparently isn't good enough. Other than that I can't think of any indication of actual legal consequences for any Alban dissenters. The only Alban who has been mentioned as fighting with the 86 was the man with the fox insignia and they made it pretty clear that he was there entirely by choice. Seems like the way they deal with it is just by socially ostracizing and then ignoring them. The majority of Albans are to happy to do this, they live peaceful lives and the ongoing genocide is just something that they Don't Talk About. If someone shows up and starts talking about the thing that we Don't Talk About then they're the rear end in a top hat for making a scene. If we're going by the most charitable interpretation of the uncle's character then he's the intended result: someone who was beaten down by years of everyone around him resolutely refusing to care and eventually gave up completely(this hasn't been firmly established and it's entirely possible that he was always a prick, but based on his brother's beliefs and the way he talks I think there's a good chance this is him). They don't have to send dissenters to the camps or punish them in any way: there aren't many of them and nobody wants to listen to them. Punishing them would just undermine the carefully maintained illusion that the republic is a perfect society where nothing bad ever happens to anyone.
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Jun 1, 2021 18:28
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Probably the only way to help the 86 at this point is if Shin can punch through the Legion and alert the rest of the world to what the Alban government is doing, like NowonSA said. That way their whole plan of wiping out the 86 to cover all of this up is no longer viable and they'll have to consider how to minimise the war crime instead of pretend it never happened. If he manages to get the communication device to another country Lena could even be the one to reveal everything and officially negotiate with them.
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Jun 1, 2021 19:57
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The fact that military service is seen as a dead end job rather than glorified definitely gives san magnolia a very different feel than traditional fascism
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Jun 1, 2021 20:27
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ninjewtsu posted:The fact that military service is seen as a dead end job rather than glorified definitely gives san magnolia a very different feel than traditional fascism People in fact only seem to want Military jobs so they can laze around for a couple of years and get payed for doing nothing.
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Jun 1, 2021 20:45
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cock hero flux posted:Seems like the way they deal with it is just by socially ostracizing and then ignoring them. The majority of Albans are to happy to do this, they live peaceful lives and the ongoing genocide is just something that they Don't Talk About. If someone shows up and starts talking about the thing that we Don't Talk About then they're the rear end in a top hat for making a scene. This reminds me of the dude that got left stranded and also sued by Birthright for asking why the West Bank & Islands weren't marked on their little maps of Israel as they went to tour the settlements.
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Jun 1, 2021 21:05
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During WW2, American citizens of Japanese descent were deported to concentration camps. This decision was made by the President during war time and was publicly unpopular, but that wasn't sufficient cause for people to start revolting against the government. Does that make the rest of the populace evil for not overthrowing the government over this? Now, if the American populace had learned that the government had been lying to them and that those concentration camps were actually to wipe the internees out... that would be a very different story. The fact that the higher ups are lying to the populace about the 86s (main population is told that they are fighting the Legion with unmanned drones, yeah the 86s have been deported outside the walls but they are not dying) to me indicates that the genocide would be so unpopular, the security of the decision makers would be at risk. Hence why they were trying to hide it in the first place. The comparison with Germany isn't applicable. By the time the death camps were in operation, Germany had become a complete totalitarian state where its own citizens were liable to be shot and executed by Nazis and Stormtroopers if they dissented. By that point, even if the death camps were widely known, anyone who with the desire to put an end to this nonsense were literally incapable of doing so, as if they tried they would be shot and killed having accomplished nothing. Or conscripted and sent into the hopeless fight against the incoming Soviets. German citizens themselves had been enslaved and their daily actions were being dictated by their Nazi taskmasters. San Magnolia, on the other hand, appears to still have a functioning society. People aren't being ordered around by the regime; it seems that people can pick which jobs they want to take at will, and so on.
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Jun 2, 2021 12:08
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The situation isn't directly analogous to various historical circumstances, it is afterall a work of fiction. However there are themes and aspects to it that are comparable or analogous to various historical examples and that allows us to make comparisons and use it as a point of discussion.quote:German citizens themselves had been enslaved and their daily actions were being dictated by their Nazi taskmasters. Hrm. Not really.
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Jun 2, 2021 15:56
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Lena finally ran out of giveable fucks, and it was glorious. And gently caress, that ending, holy poo poo that hit hard… Sawano had mostly been playing it low-key with the OST, and then dumped all of it into this one episode. It's almost surprising there's three episodes left and another cour later after that...
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Jun 5, 2021 21:43
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Omnicrom posted:Lena finally ran out of giveable fucks, and it was glorious. Two episodes left, not three, I think. And yes. It's tricky to see where they'll go from here this cour.
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Jun 5, 2021 21:47
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I got really curious and checked out the Novel for these events. And man San Magnolia is bad at this, apparently 60% of the Mortars Lena fired did not even work anymore.
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Jun 5, 2021 22:01
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MonsterEnvy posted:I got really curious and checked out the Novel for these events. And man San Magnolia is bad at this, apparently 60% of the Mortars Lena fired did not even work anymore. Yeah there was a big "Ineffective Fire: 52%" stat on her screen I'm not sure where else they can go from here. Unless this is the story of her attempts to change the Republic, she can't interact with this group of 86 anymore. Perhaps they survived to reach the outside, probably they died. So maybe she gets a new set?
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Jun 5, 2021 22:12
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Omnicrom posted:Lena finally ran out of giveable fucks, and it was glorious. Yeah I liked her pointing out that it does not matter if she breaks the rules, nothing will happen to her that’s worse then what is happening to Spearhead.
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Jun 5, 2021 22:38
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MonsterEnvy posted:I got really curious and checked out the Novel for these events. And man San Magnolia is bad at this, apparently 60% of the Mortars Lena fired did not even work anymore. Bonus is that even the ones that did work are not going to be usable because who is going into the minefield to reload them? Nobody.
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Jun 6, 2021 00:31
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Great episode, was very cathartic to see Lena finally breaking the rules and standing up for the 86. I hope we see her get reuinted with them soon. Very curious to see where they go with the remaining episodes of this season, that felt like a season ender, but we've still got a ways to go.
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Jun 6, 2021 02:44
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I like that all of the subtle hints throughout the series that Shin was also Annettes neighbour that had been foreshadowed very effectively.I had a "Oh yeah they've been doing that the entire time weren't they?" Aha moment in my head.kirtar posted:Bonus is that even the ones that did work are not going to be usable because who is going into the minefield to reload them? Nobody. I wonder if this also implies the minefield surrounding districts 1 through 85 are also possibly ineffective. Also regarding Annette; it's interesting how crazy she kinda got in regards to Shin; it must have been a source of some deep fantasizing by her about how one day she can get his forgiveness or something for her to kinda freak out just hearing his name born out by guilt and regret.
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Jun 6, 2021 07:25
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Don't know about any fantasizing but there was definitely a lot of guilt there, as if it hadn't been apparent last episode when she confessed the story to Lena in the first place. I said it before but the only way she could live with herself was by compartmentalizing her guilt and ensuing self-loathing, and rationalizing her cooperation with the system as powerlessness.
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Jun 6, 2021 09:04
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Conspiratiorist posted:Don't know about any fantasizing but there was definitely a lot of guilt there, as if it hadn't been apparent last episode when she confessed the story to Lena in the first place. I said it before but the only way she could live with herself was by compartmentalizing her guilt and ensuing self-loathing, and rationalizing her cooperation with the system as powerlessness. And it turns out that two of her biggest incidents of guilt both revolved around the same person. It's like she's being haunted, her sins recurring again and again. (Apparently, there was a biblical reference to Peter and the rooster in the original book). It's not just getting another chance. It's being forced to realize you already blew your second chance.
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Jun 6, 2021 09:58
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Fun to see I was on the right track with how things would go down, and thank god the Para-Raid was used for something more than just comms because if that never happened I'd of been screaming "just give them radios and don't write in that comms are jammed!" at the end of the cour. I think they'll keep this cross cutting between Lena and Shin going through this cour and the next, but they won't be in contact with each other and they may fiddle around with the timeline a bit to preserve some surprises (for instance, if Shin gets to another country and drops a dime on the Republic, we might not see that until that country shows up at Magnolia). The dates they've been propping up as we switch to the other perspective could be helpful with that structure as well. I think Shin's story has come first in the episodes more often than Lena's, so my guess is for the next cour they flip that so mostly it's Lena's side first. I also suspect that Shin's group (but mostly Shin because of his weird psychic powers) will stay fairly safe in the other country because they've already fought a ton and they'll see Shin's ability as an asset too valuable to risk. That'll set up Lena needing to become a proper asskicker and basically fight her way towards reuniting with Shin. Then again, it's a small crew heading into unknown territory with limited supplies, so it wouldn't exactly be a shocker if they straight up vanish for a looong time and nobody (including a new country's army if one shows up) knows what happened to them. If that's how it goes it might be the Lena show all the time, which I'd be okay with if she starts doing some frontline commander stuff yelling orders while piloting a mech. I expect next episode will pretty much be Lena coping with Spearhead being gone and facing some consequences for her recent actions, then i it ends at episode 11 that'll be the episode where the Legion breaks through and then it's just a question of how severely Magnolia gets beat up. I'm expecting it to either be relatively light damage that Magnolia can recover from or just a full massacre with only Lena and a handful of others getting out alive (at least to our knowledge). It'll probably be the light damage route with some foreign reinforcements bailing them out from annihilation but locking up like, the entire military and government because of these insane war crimes.
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Jun 6, 2021 11:35
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NowonSA posted:*snip* I actually think that we're going to spend a lot of time with Shin and company instead, and Lena will be the one we catch up with later. With Spearhead gone and Lena's big power play out in the open and done, there's, uh, not a lot for her to do presently? She's lost her only real point of contact with the 86s and she's deliberately alienated every other point of interaction(her friend and uncle) by deciding to not passively accept genocide. There's no one for her to interact with presently except if they pulled out a brand new crew of 86s for her to command, and after her stunt here that seems unlikely. If I were spitballing I'd bet on us following the remains of Spearhead to wherever they go(because that's where the main plot advancement is probably going to be) and Lena's perspective will go radio silent for a while, then when Spearhead ends up returning(because they're obviously going to return), we'll get a big catchup sequence with what's going with Lena - did she get thrown in prison? Did she become the nucleus of a group of Albans who aren't horrible shitgoblins? Did the whole country get broken open by the Legion in the meantime?
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Jun 6, 2021 17:53
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On the other hand, Lena might face consequences for her actions and we might see both for that reason.
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Jun 6, 2021 18:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand, Lena might face consequences for her actions and we might see both for that reason. I absolutely think we'll see that, but I don't think there's enough meat there for a dual perspective like most of S1 has been. "Lena gets court martialed and tossed in a gulag" would be an important event that should be shown(either presently or in flashback form), but there's not much to see with that on an ongoing basis, I guess.
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Jun 6, 2021 18:42
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Now that Spearhead is out of range of the Republic anyway so there's no risk Shin will be brought in for questioning/dissection, and using their battle data as backing inc. this last sortie plus support from Annette who is chief developer of the PARARAID system and knows the role the Nozuen brothers played in its development, Lena could turn around attempts to make her accountable for her unauthorized actions by disclosing Spearhead's theories regarding Legion and the threat it poses. I disagree with some of the earlier assessments in the thread about how she'd not even attempted to do much, but to me it looks like this is certainly the start of her ceasing to play nice. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 18:45
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Kanos posted:I absolutely think we'll see that, but I don't think there's enough meat there for a dual perspective like most of S1 has been. "Lena gets court martialed and tossed in a gulag" would be an important event that should be shown(either presently or in flashback form), but there's not much to see with that on an ongoing basis, I guess. I think what we could see is an attempt at arresting her, and during the trial gets a proper opportunity to explain that the war isn't actually going to end in two years.
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Jun 6, 2021 18:53
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Conspiratiorist posted:Now that Spearhead is out of range of the Republic anyway so there's no risk Shin will be brought in for questioning/dissection, and using their battle data as backing inc. this last sortie plus support from Annette who is chief developer of the PARARAID system and knows the role the Nozuen brothers played in its development, Lena could turn around attempts to make her accountable for her unauthorized actions by disclosing Spearhead's theories regarding Legion and the threat it poses. High command doesn't even read the reports the 86s sends in - remember when Lena chided Shin for just sending in the same report over and over again and admitted "i know we didn't read them before but please send reports now"? It seems extremely unlikely that Lena is going to be able to plausibly justify outright insubordination by going in front of her superiors and saying "one of the 86s(who you view as subhuman pigs and are trying to exterminate) under my command can hear ghost voices from the Legion(which we think is because he has brain trauma from nearly being strangled to death), and the ghost voices prove that the Legion is actually getting stronger and literally every assumption that our entire strategic and tactical doctrine is built around is actually completely wrong based on this". We spent an entire season demonstrating over and over again that you really can't logic genocidal racists into reconsidering their positions. Like, we know she's right, but it would be extremely weird and out of place for anyone to listen to what she has to say now after ignoring or being hostile to her opinions and ideas for the entire season - there hasn't really been any seismic shifts in events that would shake the Republic out of its complacency yet. Maybe once the robots start blowing holes in the wall? Kanos fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 18:57
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand, Lena might face consequences for her actions and we might see both for that reason. I doubt that the military higher up could care less about her using those cannons. And if she just tells them "all of Spearhead died" they probably won't even be bothered to check into the actual status of Spearhead.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:06
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Moofia Boss Val posted:I doubt that the military higher up could care less about her using those cannons. And if she just tells them "all of Spearhead died" they probably won't even be bothered to check into the actual status of Spearhead. I think they would be angry, because she blew a hell of a lot of ammunition for one of their main lines of defence without authorisation, but it's something she could theoretically wriggle her way out of with a good enough excuse. Might end up eating a demotion rather than being gulaged, and then spend her time figuring out what she should do with the intel on that escape route that Shin gave her.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:04
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It was mentioned IIRC that the "escape route" is temporary as a result of killing the shepherd, it isn't likely to be "safe" for long.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:08
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Kanos posted:High command doesn't even read the reports the 86s sends in - remember when Lena chided Shin for just sending in the same report over and over again and admitted "i know we didn't read them before but please send reports now"? It seems extremely unlikely that Lena is going to be able to plausibly justify outright insubordination by going in front of her superiors and saying "one of the 86s(who you view as subhuman pigs and are trying to exterminate) under my command can hear ghost voices from the Legion(which we think is because he has brain trauma from nearly being strangled to death), and the ghost voices prove that the Legion is actually getting stronger and literally every assumption that our entire strategic and tactical doctrine is built around is actually completely wrong based on this". We spent an entire season demonstrating over and over again that you really can't logic genocidal racists into reconsidering their positions. Yeah, I can't imagine them giving a single solitary gently caress. Nor do I see her getting any sort of actual punishment for what she did, either. She had her excuse lined up in advance (Oh my, a big legion force, better shoot at it to keep it from breaking through the weak point in our line). Her uncle will probably keep her from getting anything more than a demotion to somewhere out of the way and they'll go back to sitting on their rear end. Given that their mortar system is so decrepit, I can't imagine anyone with sufficient influence actually cares that it was used in the first place either. Not unless she makes someone look bad. They'll ignore her and her advice, and we'll probably either follow spearhead for a bit, or Legion will kick the republic's teeth in after a timeskip (probably in the second cour? It is doing split season, right?) and they'll ride in to the rescue in some form or another.
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Jun 9, 2021 11:14
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Caros posted:Yeah, I can't imagine them giving a single solitary gently caress. Nor do I see her getting any sort of actual punishment for what she did, either. I think if she had only fired the mortars and nothing else, she'd probably be in the clear, but she has a documented history of being anti-regime(remember the MP in the classroom lecture?) and she's specifically alienated her uncle, who might be willing to let her suffer some consequences in order to shock her out of her silly naive notions of equality and egalitarianism. I don't think she's going to get a firing squad, but it would surprise me if she didn't get drummed out, demoted, maybe a stretch in prison to try to spook her back into rightthink, or at the absolute least permanently reassigned to some bullshit dead-end job shuffling papers with no contact with anything useful until the plot moves again.
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Jun 9, 2021 13:57
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It's worth pointing out again that the military at large is already seen as a dead end career.
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Jun 9, 2021 16:32
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I want to say I've started reading the first light novel. Haven't gotten past the first couple of episodes worth of material yet, but I'm really enjoying it. I would recommend it to people interested
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Jun 9, 2021 16:51
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Sure you felt bad about all those kids dying, but that's nothing compared to their cute robot doggo.
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Jun 12, 2021 21:21
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I'm not mad at the episode ending with the end of Fido. I'm mad at myself for not seeing it coming while we were getting the entire flashback sequence. RIP ;~;
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Jun 13, 2021 00:03
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FrozenPhoenix71 posted:I'm not mad at the episode ending with the end of Fido. I'm mad at myself for not seeing it coming while we were getting the entire flashback sequence. RIP ;~; So what happened exactly? Were they unable to bring him across? Or did they get all ambushed and killed? 
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Jun 13, 2021 00:46
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Anime always good at making me feel emotional over robots and AI.
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Jun 13, 2021 01:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:So what happened exactly? Were they unable to bring him across? Or did they get all ambushed and killed? sounded like they got attacked, but at least someone was still alive and fighting until the last cut.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:So what happened exactly? Were they unable to bring him across? Or did they get all ambushed and killed? It's a flash-forward to an ongoing battle which we will presumably see next episode, from what I could tell from the date they showed.
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Jun 13, 2021 02:32
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Jesus show, why don't you just kick me a few more time in the feels for good measure.
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Jun 13, 2021 04:57
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I guess it was a bit much to hope they could make their way to the paradise of a foreign country without some losses. I think Shin's the only character on that expedition who has plot immunity, though drat what a trip/escalation it would be if the Legion breaks through the Republic's walls because they finally got their robo-claws on Shin's superbrain. That kind of hook only works if the Major's going to be the big-time lead character though, and I don't expect the show (or the LN's it's based on) to commit that hard to just the Major or be willing to get that sad/dark on us. It's kind of just an emotional torture story if something like that were to happen, on top of the war crimes/genocide we're seeing in the abstract and us seeing how much Spearhead has been decimated bit by bit. We'll get a few more feels kicks this cour, and I'm sure PLENTY in the next one, but I feel like there's got to be some light at the end of the tunnel here for at least some of the characters.
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Jun 13, 2021 11:51
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This a 2 cour anime, and I hear that it's not going to adapt the full LN story (meaning more seasons required to adapt the rest of the story). There is no way to replace dead characters with no recruits right now (as with Gundam IBO S2, which introduced new fodders at the beginning because so many were axed in season 1, meaning that if S2 continued with the same attrition rate, we would have been completely out of characters before reaching the halfway point of S2). We're down to just the 5 characters and the Major. None of them will die until either 1. we reach the finale of the series (not happening this season) or 2. they reach another country/discover a hidden enclave of survivors beyond the walls/return back to the Republic to recruit new fodder 86s.
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Jun 13, 2021 12:11
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