|
Eimi posted:To go back more to talking about cultural context, something I find interesting is that Cao Cao is very much traditionally seen as the villain, see every Dynasty Warriors ever, but when I read Ro3K and especially watched the tv show, I can't see him as anything but the hero and the perfidious Liu Bei as a lying conman. My father always thought it was funny that if you paid attention to what actually happens to Liu Bei, you'll notice that for all his benevolence and righteousness he keeps ending up in situations where he becomes someone's subordinate and then somehow ends up lord of the region, often overthrowing or deposing his former overlord. As I understand it views on who the villain and the hero of the story is tends to vary based on the politics of the time. I've heard that the PRC transitioned from identifying with Liu Bei because of his status as a plucky, underdog hero of the people to noting that "Hey, Cao Cao wasn't such a bad guy you know, he brought peace, order, and prosperity to a troubled nation, yes maybe he did a few unpleasant things but really you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelette, right?"
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 03:29 |
|
|
Ro3K wasn't meant to be a history lesson at the time it was written, either. If you want the actual history you have to dig through some of the most amazingly boring accounts ever. http://chinesenotes.com/weishu.html for the Book of Wei specifically. Good luck.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
Ro3K was propoganda, Lui bei is turned into a paragon because the dynasty at the time considered themselves the heir to the Han. Lui Beis whole thing was being the true heir to the Han as well. Since cao cao was his main rival and eventually gave rise to the Sima Clan, and from there the Jin dynasty he was made a villain, as people who try to displace the rightful heirs to the Han, and the ming claimed themselves as the natural continuation of the han, are obviously evil.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:51
|
|
|
In my entirely unscientific straw poll of my former colleagues (which is mostly mainland Chinese in their 30s), Cao Cao is seen as a bro and very masculine. Not least because the popular image of the dude is that like Caesar he seems to have made a point of trying to sleep with every pretty woman within a five mile radius.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Before this thread, I never saw Cromwell being accused of genocide. I've heard of him being a brutal warlord in Ireland who killed a lot of people, many of them civilians or partisans. If it counts as genocide then OK, but I fail to see how it differs from, say, what Napoleon did during Haitian Revolution or in the Peninsular Campaign. I can't remember if it was during Napoleon's invasion or what, but I'm pretty sure that there was a phase during the fighting over Haiti where some people on the French side were just massacring civilians that you could call genocidal. And then after the war was over, the new government of Haiti killed all the remaining French whites on the island, which was a more comprehensive genocide, although in the grand scheme of things it was only a few thousand. Might also be worth noting that Caesar's campaign through Gaul could be counted as genocidal at times. Not against all Gauls as a whole, but when Caesar decided to just eliminate a tribe here or there because they opposed him, that seems like a genocide.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:Might also be worth noting that Caesar's campaign through Gaul could be counted as genocidal at times. Not against all Gauls as a whole, but when Caesar decided to just eliminate a tribe here or there because they opposed him, that seems like a genocide. The South of the Netherlands was depopulated by Caesar, and he butchered and drowned a travelling tribe of half a million in the (at that time existing) Meuse/Rhine junction. Last year archaeologists found remains of the massacre.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
Eimi posted:To go back more to talking about cultural context, something I find interesting is that Cao Cao is very much traditionally seen as the villain, see every Dynasty Warriors ever, but when I read Ro3K and especially watched the tv show, I can't see him as anything but the hero and the perfidious Liu Bei as a lying conman. Despite ROTK being an extremely Pro-Shu work, the original interpretation of history was pretty Pro-Wei. Because the Jin Dynasty was built on top of the Wei Dynasty, they naturally wanted people to think that the Wei Dynasty was legitimate. In more modern times though, I often look at things this way: Wikipedia posted:After the Communists won the Chinese Civil War in 1949, some people in China thought there might be some similarities between Cao Cao and Mao Zedong. In 1959, Peng Dehuai wrote a letter to Mao, in which he compared himself to Zhang Fei: because Mao Zedong compares himself to Cao Cao, Peng's comparison implied that he had an intuitively confrontational relationship with Mao. Mao had the letter widely circulated in order to make Peng's attitude clear to other Party members, and proceeded to purge Peng, eventually ending Peng's career.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:16
|
|
|
Napoleon also decided to un-abolish slavery, leading to a disastrous conflict with the Haitians the effects of which still hurt them to this day, so I think he probably had about as much of a monstrous streak in him as most.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:17
|
|
|
Takanago posted:Despite ROTK being an extremely Pro-Shu work, the original interpretation of history was pretty Pro-Wei. Because the Jin Dynasty was built on top of the Wei Dynasty, they naturally wanted people to think that the Wei Dynasty was legitimate. Really a what the gently caress bro moment, Peng was a really interesting military leader. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:21
|
|
|
Lotti Fuehrscheim posted:The South of the Netherlands was depopulated by Caesar, and he butchered and drowned a travelling tribe of half a million in the (at that time existing) Meuse/Rhine junction. Last year archaeologists found remains of the massacre. the number of 430k isn't taken seriously by anyone and the roman time is quite well liked here!
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:22
|
|
|
I guess this is the right time for a very dumb question I've had for a long time: Someone once told me that Chinese history classes teach the "fantasy" aspects of ROT3K as fact, i.e. generals taking on dozens of enemy soldiers on their own and things like that. Is that true?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
GrossMurpel posted:I guess this is the right time for a very dumb question I've had for a long time: If the soldiers weren't well trained or armed maybe its possible? And probably not at all at once.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:40
|
|
|
Yeah I should've said at once
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:42
|
|
|
GrossMurpel posted:I guess this is the right time for a very dumb question I've had for a long time: I don't know whether history classes are actively teaching that or not, but I have heard that part of those stories may have a certain basis in fact in that most of the famous officers were well-trained and equipped members of the old Imperial standing army, whereas most of the armies of the early Three Kingdoms period were hastily-raised local levies, often personally loyal to the specific officer who'd raised them. As such it wouldn't be uncommon for the levies to be unwilling to fight unless their officer led the way or dueled the enemy, and if their officer fell or ran it also wouldn't be uncommon for them to shatter as well. Later on in the stories as nations get more settled and armies get more regular you hear fewer stories of officers single-handedly routing or holding back armies. So it's less really that the officers are superhuman stone cold badasses and more that their early opponents were largely poorly-armed farmers who didn't really want to be there. Edit: And now that I bring that up I personally think that a KOEI Dynasty Warriors take on the US Civil War would be hilarious. Sherman throwing firebombs at Jackson who's summoning earthen ramparts or something. Tomn fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 16:52
|
|
|
fuf posted:haha, this just gave me a flashback to my British history education where we did indeed spend an inordinate amount of time on the puritans wanting to ban Christmas. I do wonder if a lot of modern resentment of Cromwell in the UK is mostly due to the fact that they have to spend so much time learning about a guy who, ultimately, did not really have an impact on the modern United Kingdom. He did a lot of stuff during his lifetime, sure, but then after he died basically everything was reset to how it was before the war. There's got to be a feeling of "is this guy really so important that we have to keep learning about him?"
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 17:09
|
|
|
Rynoto posted:Ro3K wasn't meant to be a history lesson at the time it was written, either. If you want the actual history you have to dig through some of the most amazingly boring accounts ever. The Book of Wei is basically the earliest account we have of the peoples of the Korean Peninsula and Japanese Archipelago (when Wei attacked Goguryeo and then romped around the vicinity doing an ethnographic survey, basically) so if you're interested in that it actually owns on the Yemaek posted:They always use the festival of the tenth month to do ritual service to Heaven; drinking, singing, and dancing day and night, they call this dancing to Heaven (mucheon). They also sacrifice to the tiger as to a divine being. If their villages violently transgress upon each other, they are always penalized by exaction of slaves, oxen, and horses; this they call exaction for outrage. One who kills another must die in retribution; there is little robbery among them. They make spears three chang in length, sometimes carried by three men at once. They are capable foot soldiers; the “sandalwood bow” of Lelang comes from their land.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 17:22
|
|
|
That's where we have the first recorded ruler of Yamato being Himiko from, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 17:27
|
|
|
Koramei posted:The Book of Wei is basically the earliest account we have of the peoples of the Korean Peninsula and Japanese Archipelago (when Wei attacked Goguryeo and then romped around the vicinity doing an ethnographic survey, basically) so if you're interested in that it actually owns Oh yeah I agree that it's an amazing account but there's something about old chinese records and the way they're written that's dry even for history nerdery. Probably because writing on those slats leaves you with very little patience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 17:34
|
|
|
Eimi posted:That's where we have the first recorded ruler of Yamato being Himiko from, yeah? Yeah on Himiko posted:The country formerly had a man as ruler. For some seventy or eighty years after that there were disturbances and warfare. Therupon the people agreed upon a woman for their ruler. Her name was Himiko. She occupied herself with magic and sorcery, bewitching the people. Though mature in age, she remained unmarried. She had a younger brother who assisted her in ruling the country. After she became the ruler, there were few who saw her. She had one thousand women as attendants, but only one man. He served her food and drink and acted as a medium of communication. She resided in a palace surrounded by towers and stockades, with armed guards in a state of constant vigilance. There was for a long time an unfortunate tendency for (overwhelmingly male) historians to interpret the whole "few saw her" and "her younger brother assisted her in ruling the country" to mean she was only a spiritual figurehead and her brother did the actual ruling, totally ignoring that later well-accepted emperors are recorded as having assistants in the exact same way (with the same character and everything), which you might sometimes end up reading. There's a good analysis of that and of her in "Gendered Interpretations of Female Rule" if anyone's curious to read more. Women's status in ancient/medieval Korea and Japan seems to have been remarkably high as far as premodern state societies go, in sad contrast to their later histories; we fortunately have a lot of names of Japanese queens and empresses, but there's pretty compelling evidence for at least a few reigning queens in Korea too past just the 3 that were recorded, but that likely got written out of history by later Confucian historians.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 17:40
|
|
|
Koramei posted:Yeah Isn't her existence generally questionable anyway, considering there's only really a few offhand Chinese references to her?
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
There was some confusion about trying to figure out who she's supposed to be when referenced against Japan's own dynastic annals, since she doesn't really fit any traditionally attested figure (she's often linked to Jingu but it's uh, kind of dubious), but that was mostly in the first half of the 20th century when nationalism surrounding those parts of Japanese history ran super deep. These days the Japanese records until about 500 are not considered remotely reliable, whereas The Book of Wei's account of Korea/Japan generally are,* and I don't think any mainstream historians doubt Himiko's existence; there are records of her over a long span of time and in a few different Chinese sources. *Reliable as in probably not having made things up, but still surely totally misunderstood/viewed in a Sinocentric lens lots of things about all these alien cultures it was recording for the first time. The figure Himiko almost certainly existed; the specifics of Yamatai court culture and her reign are probably not exactly as transcribed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:32
|
|
|
Iyo the 13 year old girl suddenly made empress in a palace full of women courtiers sounds like a great anime waiting to happen.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
Tomn posted:My father always thought it was funny that if you paid attention to what actually happens to Liu Bei, you'll notice that for all his benevolence and righteousness he keeps ending up in situations where he becomes someone's subordinate and then somehow ends up lord of the region, often overthrowing or deposing his former overlord. Liu Bei spiking a baby into the ground to show what an honorable man he is is when I stopped being able to take Shu Seriously. Also lol at the legendary strategist Zhuge Liang failing to invade Wei five times, what a legend.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
John Charity Spring posted:then I would suggest you're not very familiar with historical analysis of Oliver Cromwell for reference I am Brazilian and Brazilian scholars in history and sociology consider him utterly batshit in his genocidal inclinations
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:I do wonder if a lot of modern resentment of Cromwell in the UK is mostly due to the fact that they have to spend so much time learning about a guy who, ultimately, did not really have an impact on the modern United Kingdom. He did a lot of stuff during his lifetime, sure, but then after he died basically everything was reset to how it was before the war. There's got to be a feeling of "is this guy really so important that we have to keep learning about him?" Speak for yourself, I never even covered him im school. Most people won't these days. Mandatory history education stops at 13 and 13-18 is more focused on deep dives in a topic area to develop skills and understanding than wide surveys of British history as a whole, there's just too much of it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
How does British education treat the french revolution? In the US it's presented in a mostly good light, except for Robespierre.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:20
|
|
|
Protip: "US education" doesn't exist, you can only speak for the school/district you went to. Even state level is too broad. I had one school where the teacher loving loathed the french revolutionaries and then another in the same district where the world history teacher dedicated weeks to fanboying Napoléon. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jun 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
VostokProgram posted:How does British education treat the french revolution? In the US it's presented in a mostly good light, except for Robespierre. It doesn't, really. As far as British school education and general absorbed wisdom is concerned, France is 1066 but not the consequences of it, Agincourt but not the rest of the Hundred Years War, Waterloo and to a lesser extent Trafalgar, I guess they were on our side in WW1, and in WW2 they were all in the Resistance after they were done surrendering. After that they're generally hostile to us, because of the European Union.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:42
|
|
|
Nothingtoseehere posted:Mandatory history education stops at 13 this explains an awful lot and is something i will keep in mind the next time a british person brags about how their pre-university education is so much more advanced than in the US
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:45
|
|
|
explains the cromwell defender at leastEdgar Allen Ho posted:Protip: "US education" doesn't exist, you can only speak for the school/district you went to. Even state level is too broad. This cannot be stated hard enough, I'm constantly surprised that despite growing up in a poor rear end bible belt area of the US that I had a much better Historical education than most of the people on SA. People act like the US never mentions the atrocities committed towards the Native Americans, when we had a whole semester and guest speakers on it
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:46
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:this explains an awful lot and is something i will keep in mind the next time a british person brags about how their pre-university education is so much more advanced than in the US The funding model of pre-university education in the US is tremendously terrible. Also, do you find that British people brag about their pre-university education a lot? It's... mediocre? The obvious thing to brag about is free universal healthcare, but our government's doing their best to destroy that If you want good pre-university education, look to Finland. There are like, 12 kids per class, while in the UK it's more than thirty. Gort fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jun 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:49
|
|
|
Gort posted:The funding model of pre-university education in the US is tremendously terrible. not overly much but it does come up every once in a while in education-related discussions when they followed a maths-heavy path and are surprised to learn that US high schools tend to top out at basic calculus (because the required curriculum is broad rather than specialized) anyway stopping a person's historical education at 13 is an awful idea. 13 is a shitheaded intolerant kind of age for a lot of people and opinions formed at that age shouldn't be the last impression a person has about history Jazerus fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:57
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Protip: "US education" doesn't exist, you can only speak for the school/district you went to. Even state level is too broad. Hypothetically, the same person could do both, if you regarded taking the throne as a repudiation of Revolutionary ideals!
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2021 23:59
|
|
|
I've heard talk that the way the US is forcing Algebra earlier and earlier into the Curriculum is counter intuitive and damaging. I can't really take a stance because I can't do math for poo poo. But I know Elementary students that are being taught basic algebra
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:00
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:I've heard talk that the way the US is forcing Algebra earlier and earlier into the Curriculum is counter intuitive and damaging. I can't really take a stance because I can't do math for poo poo. But I know Elementary students that are being taught basic algebra Good. They learn that stuff way earlier in other countries. And algebra isn't even that difficult.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:03
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:Protip: "US education" doesn't exist, you can only speak for the school/district you went to. Even state level is too broad. I moved around a ton as a kid, and even the grade where you learn stuff varies. I learned a lot of basic poo poo three or four times because I changed schools. And there's absolutely a lot of variety even within a single school in how teachers present stuff. At one school I went to, there were two history teachers who disagreed about how to interpret the US Constitution, with one calling it a "living, breathing document" and the other calling it "a firm foundation for society" and each would take points off of essays if you argued the opposite stance. I also had one teacher who really really hated Andrew Jackson (which: fair) and any time we discussed a bad historical figure, would compare them to Andrew Jackson by saying at least they weren't that bad. (That class didn't get to Hitler)
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:10
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:I also had one teacher who really really hated Andrew Jackson (which: fair) and any time we discussed a bad historical figure, would compare them to Andrew Jackson by saying at least they weren't that bad. (That class didn't get to Hitler) this teacher sounds cool though
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:11
|
|
|
Kaza42 posted:I also had one teacher who really really hated Andrew Jackson (which: fair) and any time we discussed a bad historical figure, would compare them to Andrew Jackson by saying at least they weren't that bad. (That class didn't get to Hitler) I had a teacher in HS who did this for Chris Columbo. It was loving annoying, she always called him an idiot who didn't matter. Which is pretty loving dumb considering the Colombian exchange changed the life of nearly every single being on this earth. She was an idiot. VostokProgram posted:Good. They learn that stuff way earlier in other countries. And algebra isn't even that difficult. loving bullshit is what it is, A is not a number
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 00:15
|
|
|
Gaius Marius posted:explains the cromwell defender at least My high school US history teacher used the "Lies My Teacher Told Me" book as the class textbook. I got an entire year of hearing about all the atrocities committed by the US, in detail and explained how even those that know about it get it wrong usually. Gaius Marius posted:
But X is. nessin fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 3, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 01:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 03:29 |
|
|
Look I made the mistake of taking up to vector calc in college. Save yourself. Maths are made up and for computers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2021 01:12
|
|