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Blockhouse posted:There's no good reason to think Hythlodaeus was wrong about that one thing when he was dead on about literally every other piece of information he gave us It's just very strange to talk this way about people that want to chuck babies into the dark god's maw: quote:I shall not speak ill of the Convocation--they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:19
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Blockhouse posted:There's no good reason to think Hythlodaeus was wrong about that one thing when he was dead on about literally every other piece of information he gave us To be fair, it does feel a little disinguous how it's encouraged to Not Trust Emet's Perspective when it comes to things that make us feel bad, but Absolutely Trust him when it comes to reaffirming our side's moral righteousness! I don't think it's likely, personally, that Hythlodaeus was wrong - honestly, I think the dilemma of the Amaurotines based on what he says is really compelling and tragic - but he is operating off of Emet's knowledge and intentions. And Emet demonstrates he has very mixed feelings about what he was doing, which could have been a factor. And we have a good example of the "good guys" using a fundamentally dishonest framework to convince the populace/their followers to go along with a plan they otherwise wouldn't agree with: G'raha Tia and the Ironworks. So there's that. I think it is fairly clear from the direct recording that, whether saving the other races was a factor, or important to certain members of the Hydaelyn coalition, it probably wasn't actually Venat's true concern.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:23
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I like to think of it like this. Summoning primals is just creation magic performed by those without the resources to fully craft or knowledge to control the final result. The final construct, while influenced by the summoner, isn't complete, and ends up draining the land of aether if the resources to create it weren't sufficient, or tempers those they come across if only because the created being was too powerful for the original summoner to handle. This might be why Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't really known to drain the world dry of aether: they were created with sufficient resources to be self stable. But because they were a type of creation magic that was too powerful for the original summoner to control (the ancients, in their hubris, probably thought they could handle it), it caused the extra side effects of tempering them and others around them. Inevitably this led to creation magic being taught to beings with a lower capacity of aether/a non-complete grasp of the process (the various tribes of Eorzea), leading to primals that were actively dangerous to anyone around them and the world itself, simply because the summoners had no idea what they were getting into and didn't have the sufficient resources to create a complete being. MadFriarAvelyn fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 01:24
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This also means the only partially successful use of creation magic/summoning since then was done by...Gilgamesh, when he accidentally summoned/created a version of his old pal Enkidu without resulting in himself being tempered (though maybe with a drain on the surrounding aether). I don't know why the Ascians are trying to deal with our bullshit. They should be trying to recruit that guy.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:28
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For all we know, tempering the summoners might be part of the original design decisions when they constructed the design of Zodiark, and in turn Hydaelyn. What better way to make sure your faith in the cause doesn't waver?
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Jun 3, 2021 01:29
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:For all we know, tempering the summoners might be part of the original design decisions when they constructed the design of Zodiark, and in turn Hydaelyn. What better way to make sure your faith in the cause doesn't waver? Valid. I just lean towards the ancients doing something too big for their britches vs them being openly hostile with the end result, given their entire society revolved around debating and finding a common ground between differences instead of forcing someone to agree to something. 
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Jun 3, 2021 01:33
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:Valid. I just lean towards the ancients doing something too big for their britches vs them being openly hostile with the end result, given their entire society revolved around debating and finding a common ground between differences instead of forcing someone to agree to something. I mean, in fairness, the planet was literally exploding. I doubt the Tempering aspect was intentional, but I'd be hard-pressed to perfect my unprecedented blueprints in those circumstances too. Lahabrea Did His Best
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Jun 3, 2021 01:36
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:This also means the only partially successful use of creation magic/summoning since then was done by...Gilgamesh, when he accidentally summoned/created a version of his old pal Enkidu without resulting in himself being tempered (though maybe with a drain on the surrounding aether). What if they did and they didn’t have any rare swords to tempt him. What if Elidibus got tired of his constant hijinks
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Jun 3, 2021 01:36
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Yeah, it definitely could go either way. Hubris seems to go well with the Ancients, so a fundamental design flaw in their grand plan is also sensible.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:36
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thetoughestbean posted:What if they did and they didn’t have any rare swords to tempt him. What if Elidibus got tired of his constant hijinks This is the Hildibrand content we missed out on during Shadowbringers. 
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Jun 3, 2021 01:38
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah, it definitely could go either way. Hubris seems to go well with the Ancients, so a fundamental design flaw in their grand plan is also sensible. Imagine an anime avatar entering an endless recursion of internal screaming every time the Ancients' fate to assigned to "hubris." Like a snake eating its own tail. Forever.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:39
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Raelle posted:Imagine an anime avatar entering an endless recursion of internal screaming every time the Ancients' fate to assigned to "hubris." Like a snake eating its own tail. Forever. If you're that flexible that you can eat your own tail I need you to refer me to your anime yoga teacher.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:41
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Azem walking into a convocation meeting going "Hey nerds look what I can do" and twists themselves into a pretzel.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:42
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Raelle posted:Imagine an anime avatar entering an endless recursion of internal screaming every time the Ancients' fate to assigned to "hubris." Like a snake eating its own tail. Forever. I have no idea what you mean by this.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:43
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I have no idea what you mean by this. I was being pretty glib, sorry. I find it personally frustrating how widespread the instinct of assigning the traditional "hubris" as the reason for the Ancients' downfall when Shadowbringers is a deeply compassionate story that went out of its way to not do that. Just a pet peeve!
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Jun 3, 2021 01:50
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:This also means the only partially successful use of creation magic/summoning since then was done by...Gilgamesh, when he accidentally summoned/created a version of his old pal Enkidu without resulting in himself being tempered (though maybe with a drain on the surrounding aether). Alexander might've not tempered the Illuminati. It's kinda hard to tell with those guys, but they seem to still be doing their own poo poo afterwards. One of the bosses turns up in Eureka and seems to be okay doing his own thing. Alexander had its own problems of course (like I said, Classic Mecha Energy Problems, and I can't imagine the Illuminati loved it orchestrating their failure), but points to the Illuminati for keeping their heads on straight.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:51
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The hubris of Amarout was it refusing to help out the outside world, and they might have been able to think of a better solution than Zodiark if they had done so, but that’s my view, not the text’s
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Jun 3, 2021 01:52
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Raelle posted:I was being pretty glib, sorry. I find it personally frustrating how widespread the instinct of assigning the traditional "hubris" as the reason for the Ancients' downfall when Shadowbringers is a deeply compassionate story that went out of its way to not do that. Just a pet peeve! I’d say hubris is a big undercurrent
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Jun 3, 2021 01:53
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There's an element of hubris when their creation magic is leading to the end times, and their solution is to create harder. It's not the whole story, but their supreme confidence in that skill was a part of their downfall.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:57
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hobbesmaster posted:I’d say hubris is a big undercurrent Yeah, especially with Amaurot. A huge element of the sidequests there, including Akadaemia, is that those guys aren't as good as they think they are. And by 'good' I mean both morally (refusing to help others when the apocalypse is happening) and competence-wise (most of the sidequests around creation magic has them gently caress it up somehow). Raelle thinks 'ancient society fell to hubris' is boring, but they're clearly prone to it. And I personally find that way more interesting than 'ancient society was perfect but blew up anyway'. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 01:58
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hobbesmaster posted:I’d say hubris is a big undercurrent You see it in just about every other narrative detailing the fall of major civilizations, so it's very, very easy for people to project.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:58
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thetoughestbean posted:The hubris of Amarout was it refusing to help out the outside world, and they might have been able to think of a better solution than Zodiark if they had done so, but that’s my view, not the text’s Where in the game did it say Amaurot refused to help the outside world? I thought that was part of the Convocation’s job, and Azem deciding to take matters into their own hands instead of referring problems to the Convocation was more of a “no need to call in the army, I got this” move.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:59
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untuned posted:Where in the game did it say Amaurot refused to help the outside world? I thought that was part of the Convocation’s job, and Azem deciding to take matters into their own hands instead of referring problems to the Convocation was more of a “no need to call in the army, I got this” move. Regarding the sound the shades of amourat talk about it as something happening... Over there. Away from then, nothing to worry about
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Jun 3, 2021 02:00
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untuned posted:Where in the game did it say Amaurot refused to help the outside world? I thought that was part of the Convocation’s job, and Azem deciding to take matters into their own hands instead of referring problems to the Convocation was more of a “no need to call in the army, I got this” move. Two random civilians on the street debated interventionalism as an intellectual exercise, this demonstrates a fundamental moral failing across every reach of their society, in spite of literally everything else we hear about the Convocations' efforts to capture the creatures and figure out how to deal with them and the entire premise of Azem's job.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:01
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Was their creation magic leading to the end times? I haven't reviewed anything recently but I seem to remember the Amarout sections talking about how they didn't know precisely where the sound was coming from, only that it was somewhere far away, 'the heart of the star,' and that they thought it was the cause of their creation magics going awry. I thought a lot of the akedaemia horrors weren't so much 'the ancients weren't as good as they thought they were' so much as 'these magics that were previously reliable have slowly stopped working/coming out as we intended upon creation.' E: granted, not that I really caught it at the time, but I did get the impression that the ancients spent all of their time in debate and this may have lead to a non-intervention approach which is now more obviously reflected in Sharlayan. But I also don't really recall SB establishing that there were any other civilizations during the time of the ancients, 'new unintended life' aside. FunkyFjord fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 02:07
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FunkyFjord posted:Was their creation magic leading to the end times? It's a fan theory. Only thing we know is that the sickness/Sound came from within the heart of the star and began spreading on the surface from the north.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:09
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Stormgale posted:Regarding the sound the shades of amourat talk about it as something happening... Over there. Away from then, nothing to worry about The shades of Amaurot tell you to stay with your loved ones because the world is about to end.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:09
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Something, the sound, started them losing control of their creation magic, which lead to their unconscious fears being created.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:10
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Is there anything explicitly stating that the akadaemia horrors were their unconscious fears being weaved into their creations though? Definitely, they spend enough time in that section talking about the slightest missteps in concentration leading to similar effects but I was pretty unclear if that meant things like 'this robe I tried to create came out as an eldritch horror end beast' or 'it's size and coloring is not quite what I intended.'
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Jun 3, 2021 02:13
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Cleretic posted:Raelle thinks 'ancient society fell to hubris' is boring, but they're clearly prone to it. And I personally find that way more interesting than 'ancient society was perfect but blew up anyway'. I also don't think saying, "gee, if only the Ancients had done the equivalent of cutting off their own hands and stopped trying to fix things, it all would have been fine" is particularly fascinating either. Wow, those horrible people, using their opposable thumbs to make tools and manipulating their environment, probably thought they owned the place!
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Jun 3, 2021 02:15
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FunkyFjord posted:Is there anything explicitly stating that the akadaemia horrors were their unconscious fears being weaved into their creations though? Emet says in the Amaurot dungeon that their fears gave rise to the beasts and destroyed the city. That being said, the Sound is described as something that was distorting all living creatures it affected, and it happened to affect the Ancients in this way. The Amaurotines are actually very, very careful about regulating their creation magic - that's the whole DMV joke! And you can encounter two Amaurotines debating on the standards for what creations get approved! there are multiple sidequests about it! - so before the Sound, it was absolutely the latter.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:15
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I think it's very likely, given how creation magic works, that the amaurot we see is a mixture of time periods, with different inhabitants acting like the end hasn't started yet, there's vague rumors but nobody knows what's up, and it's here oh god
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Jun 3, 2021 02:17
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Raelle posted:Two random civilians on the street debated interventionalism as an intellectual exercise, this demonstrates a fundamental moral failing across every reach of their society, in spite of literally everything else we hear about the Convocations' efforts to capture the creatures and figure out how to deal with them and the entire premise of Azem's job. Azem was noted as being unusually devoted to their job of helping people out as seen in the short story where Elidibus notes that it’s odd that someone would try to help prevent a village from getting destroyed by a volcano. Azem’s job description was making sure that Amarout had an okay relationship with the rest of the world, something that they went above and beyond doing, while the rest of Amarout was basically more powerful Sharlayan
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Jun 3, 2021 02:18
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Stormgale posted:Regarding the sound the shades of amourat talk about it as something happening... Over there. Away from then, nothing to worry about No they don't, they tell you it's only a matter of time before it reaches Amaurot too and you should go spend time with your family before it's too late.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:18
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FunkyFjord posted:Is there anything explicitly stating that the akadaemia horrors were their unconscious fears being weaved into their creations though? The Akadaemia dungeon actually wasn't part of the End of Days at all (and might've taken place before it in the 'real' chronology, it's unclear). It goes to poo poo for entirely unrelated reasons. Which aren't clear, but seem to mostly stem from logic like 'we deliberately made horrible shark monsters and then the containment broke'. The guy who summoned Quetzacoatl might've released them, but... well, when someone opens the cage of something named 'Evil Amor', you're not allowed to put the blame entirely on the guy that opened the cage when the Evil Amor starts killing people.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:19
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musouka posted:I also don't think saying, "gee, if only the Ancients had done the equivalent of cutting off their own hands and stopped trying to fix things, it all would have been fine" is particularly fascinating either. Wow, those horrible people, using their opposable thumbs to make tools and manipulating their environment, probably thought they owned the place! Though it's entirely possibly that's why they summoned Hydaelyn. It could be that Venat's group decided the ancients were too powerful and thus were a ticking time bomb ready to destroy the world (again) if something like the sound happened again in the future.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:22
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thetoughestbean posted:Azem was noted as being unusually devoted to their job of helping people out as seen in the short story where Elidibus notes that it’s odd that someone would try to help prevent a village from getting destroyed by a volcano. Azem’s job description was making sure that Amarout had an okay relationship with the rest of the world, something that they went above and beyond doing, while the rest of Amarout was basically more powerful Sharlayan Azem's job was forming relationships and then referring any problems they encountered to the Convocation for them to handle. Their approach was seen as unusual because rather than go to the Convocation to figure things out, they liked to handle things on the spot themselves, but that doesn't change that there's a specific seat on the highest government of Amaurot dedicated to surveying the rest of the world and solving issues. Azem was treated as a goddamn weirdo in that story because they decided to bend the laws of nature and punch a volcano because they really like grapes.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:23
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FunkyFjord posted:Is there anything explicitly stating that the akadaemia horrors were their unconscious fears being weaved into their creations though? I don't think anything in Akadaemia is related to The Final Days, but in the "Amaurot" dungeon Emet-Selch pretty plainly says "Just as prayers give rise to primals, our dread made manifest our deepest fears." What we know is basically that something spooky started happening, and then as it got worse people started accidentally thinking "I sure hope no scary monsters jump out at me" while doing creation magic which made the progression of the bad things accelerate exponentially.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:23
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Raelle posted:Azem was treated as a goddamn weirdo in that story because they decided to bend the laws of nature and punch a volcano because they really like grapes. Who wouldn't want to gather up their friends, summon a giant firey demon, and beat him up for grapes? 
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Jun 3, 2021 02:25
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Cleretic posted:The Akadaemia dungeon actually wasn't part of the End of Days at all (and might've taken place before it in the 'real' chronology, it's unclear). It goes to poo poo for entirely unrelated reasons. Which aren't clear, but seem to mostly stem from logic like 'we deliberately made horrible shark monsters and then the containment broke'. The Guardian Forces were a project explicitly meant to counter the End of Days. They captured Archaeotitania and brought it there to try and work on a solution.
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Jun 3, 2021 02:26
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