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Prolonged Priapism posted:Somebody needs to rewatch the trailer: D U N C desert planet...
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Jun 3, 2021 02:44
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Somebody needs to rewatch the trailer: Username/post combo
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Jun 3, 2021 03:12
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Computers aren't banned/destroyed in the DUNE universe. The Buterlian JIHAD was agaisnt "machine thinking" Not "Thinking machines" but more of a giant backlash agaisnt mindsets and people thinking LIKE machines. I mean, there is also a big cultural taboo, bordering on outright outlawed agaisnt machines that think. You can have computers, just not so powerful that they can think for themselves, or replace humans. You don't NEED spice, or the guild to fold space. They used computers for that before Spice was discovered. What you NEED the spice for, is to see the future and make sure you aren't gonna pop out of hyperspace right in front of a massive meteor. *Disclaimer: Been years since I actually read the books, so some details may be off. I do want to re-read before the movie comes out though.
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Jun 3, 2021 03:17
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Folding space ain't like dustin' crops, boy
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Jun 3, 2021 03:18
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Pham Nuwen posted:Username/post combo Rewatched the trailer for the first time in a while and yeah. Yeah. I need this movie.
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Jun 3, 2021 03:31
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Johnny Aztec posted:The Buterlian JIHAD was agaisnt "machine thinking" Not "Thinking machines" but more of a giant backlash agaisnt mindsets and people thinking LIKE machines.  What about mentats? They are specifically employed as human machine thought tactical middlemen.
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Jun 3, 2021 04:46
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priznat posted:The Fremen only had free reign to do galactic jihad because they had the spacing guild by the short and curlies right? They were good at knife fighting and riding giant worms around but I never really understood how that tracked to galactic conquest. They only did the Jihad under Paul, you know, the Qizatz Haderach, and the legitimate ruler of the only source of spice. Yes, the Guild landed fremen legions wherever they were told to and once they made planet fall they will destroy local troops like crazy. Off of Arrakis I assume even the fremen used shields
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Jun 3, 2021 05:44
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MENTATS: THE FRESHMAKER and i unno about mentats. Maybe they are human calculators but they can interweave humanity into all of it. I mean, humans aren't logically or rational. A computer would give you the most efficient choice, or most logical tactic, but again, humans aren't rational or logical, so maybe mentats can take that all into account? Fresh goes better Mentos freshness Fresh goes better With Mentos, fresh and full of life! [img of Paul winking at the camera with a handful of Mentos after taking over Arrakais]
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Jun 3, 2021 05:47
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Every mentat is a dumbass
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Jun 3, 2021 05:49
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Ingmar terdman posted:Every mentat is a dumbass Calculating... .... ..... ...... .......
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Jun 3, 2021 05:59
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throwing an asteroid at a planet is completely stupid unless you're utterly cranked off your rear end on juice or spice, and even then its still mostly stupid. It'd be the same thing as using atomics and is a great way to utterly gently caress the world you're trying to conquer, even if you slam dunk that thing exactly where you want it to land. but if you drop in the hardest of the hardcore they can roll over any resistance and not ruin valuable infrastructure and biosphere. also they say the advantage of the spear is it's range. The disadvantage is it's range. Supposedly if you can not get got if you duck in you can really gently caress someone up, but i'm not entirely certain.
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Jun 3, 2021 06:13
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Mentats can be easily defeated by asking them to divide by zero. It makes their eyes go blank and they fall over twitching. For a less cruel version, ask them to define pi, and slip out the door somewhere around the five hundredth decimal place.
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Jun 3, 2021 06:14
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SniperWoreConverse posted:throwing an asteroid at a planet is completely stupid unless you're utterly cranked off your rear end on juice or spice, and even then its still mostly stupid. It'd be the same thing as using atomics and is a great way to utterly gently caress the world you're trying to conquer, even if you slam dunk that thing exactly where you want it to land. Considering the feudal system that is in place, and a sort of peace enforced by CHOAM and the Guild, I think most planets have very little defenses. The Atredies/Harkoenn thing is a Hatfield/McCoy thing, and I imagine most other Dukes don't have any enemies, beyond basic level political ones. So, a force of battle hardened Fremen could easily do a quick strike and capture the Capital. Could they HOLD the Capital? Probably not, but they have no intention to. They strike in, do their Jihad thing, make everyone swear to Mua'dib, and move on. I mean, it establishes in DUNE that the Fremen are BETTER than the elite force that the Emperor trains on a nuclear war scorched hell planet. Now, numbers and logistics are another issue, but let's ignore that.
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Jun 3, 2021 06:22
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It is said early on in Messiah that a number of worlds have been glassed by the Fremen.
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Jun 3, 2021 06:39
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I'm still working on Children of Dune, but I also have the impression that Fremen, on top of just being skilled, are altered by their lifestyle, crazy levels of spice consumption, and orgies and stuff to be somehow perfectly tuned for group combat. Like maybe they're just prescient enough to be seriously advantaged in a fight, and also their sense of community is almost physically instilled in them such that they can act as a single unit in absurd ways.
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Jun 3, 2021 08:30
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Also remember that they now control the Guild, so any planet that doesn't fall in line is cut off from all interplanetary trade.
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Jun 3, 2021 08:45
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I also imagine a lot of planets were just like "What's that? Muad Dib? Am I saying that right? Hell yeah, I love that guy Muad Dib! Please do not despoil my planet, sir." And then maybe they get a platoon of Fremen and the Fremen equivalent of the GarfieldEATS guy installed as 'governors' and life proceeds
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Jun 3, 2021 10:06
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Johnny Aztec posted:Computers aren't banned/destroyed in the DUNE universe. The Buterlian JIHAD was agaisnt "machine thinking" I think that Mentats are a major hypocrisy in the Dune universe. They are an example of machine thinking (and Leto is doomed because of the weakness that engendered), but they are also essential and so society convinces itself that they don't count as machine thinking. Pretty sure computers in general are destroyed btw. It's a major secret of the Bene Gesserit that the breeding system is stored and processed on an electronic computer system as it had grown beyond human abilities to handle.
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Jun 3, 2021 10:08
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Bug Squash posted:I think that Mentats are a major hypocrisy in the Dune universe. They are an example of machine thinking (and Leto is doomed because of the weakness that engendered), but they are also essential and so society convinces itself that they don't count as machine thinking. So basically it’s making a human in the shape of a machine mind?
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Jun 3, 2021 10:33
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Johnny Aztec posted:Computers aren't banned/destroyed in the DUNE universe. The Buterlian JIHAD was agaisnt "machine thinking" They are off - very much so. The Butlerian Jihad was specifically about thinking machines: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind". The stuff about "machine thinking" was in (I believe) Heretics. Definitely not in the first four. quote:"Why do you test for humans?" he asked.
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Jun 3, 2021 10:52
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Just caught up on around a hundred pages of stillposting and simultaneously want to thank you all and also call a Butlerian for your wellbeing Where's this loving film at
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Jun 3, 2021 12:34
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duncs waiting to be released simultaneously with space jam 2 for the ultimate dunc/dunk showdown
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Jun 3, 2021 12:37
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Johnny Aztec posted:Considering the feudal system that is in place, and a sort of peace enforced by CHOAM and the Guild, I think most planets have very little defenses. Yeah, interplanetary movement of troops just isn't possible without approval of the Guild (and through them CHOAM). So large scale conflicts just don't happen, wars are settled by assassins. This is why so much jargon and protocol is built up around assassinations. I imagine most houses/planets don't have much in the way of armed forces beyond a small royal guard and a police force. Planets were effectively unarmed compared to Fremen armies. The fact that Leto had a large well trained force was one of the biggest reasons the emperor considered him enough of a threat to dispose of him (along with his popularity with the Landsraad and his potential claim to the throne by blood). It emphasizes just how rare and dangerous something akin to a standing army is in the setting.
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Jun 3, 2021 12:41
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How does a random backwater planet even contact the guild to request trade? Does the guild just fold up on regular intervals like the mail or something? Hi, I'm calling from planet CDXX. I'd like to sell 69 of our finest pugs. In exchange, can you please deliver 1 or 2 Fremen legions to jihad me? Thanks! Duke Dum'rear end
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Jun 3, 2021 14:15
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YoursTruly posted:How does a random backwater planet even contact the guild to request trade? Does the guild just fold up on regular intervals like the mail or something? With enough Heighliners moving about, and them returning to a set of distributed bases of operations, information could still flow. I always assumed that Guild Heighliners were so huge, because they essentially had to carry around a lot of luxury items, effectively functioning like caravans traveling between places, bringing luxuries to those that can afford it while the planets themselves are self-sustaining ecosystems.
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Jun 3, 2021 15:44
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I figure they're also huge, because, why not? Might as well bring it all
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Jun 4, 2021 06:35
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I like all the descriptions in Dune Messiah about the absolutely insane scale of the Arrakeen imperial buildings and stuff. Like, several cities would fit inside these courts, absolutely goofy amounts of space
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Jun 4, 2021 06:55
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Might be the kinda thing that makes sense for a relatively sparsely populated city that's exploded into an imperial capital within a decade. That and with how scorching hot it is, you want everyone to have their space.
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Jun 4, 2021 11:09
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Might be the kinda thing that makes sense for a relatively sparsely populated city that's exploded into an imperial capital within a decade. That and with how scorching hot it is, you want everyone to have their space. I do believe it's all about the stink. You can smell a Fremen from up to three kilometres away, after all.
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Jun 4, 2021 11:15
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Martman posted:I like all the descriptions in Dune Messiah about the absolutely insane scale of the Arrakeen imperial buildings and stuff. Like, several cities would fit inside these courts, absolutely goofy amounts of space I also like that, because it raises the question of how people move around quickly and efficiently in those ridiculously vast spaces. The answer, of course, is either space heelies or fremen hoverboards.
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Jun 4, 2021 11:19
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Martman posted:I like all the descriptions in Dune Messiah about the absolutely insane scale of the Arrakeen imperial buildings and stuff. Like, several cities would fit inside these courts, absolutely goofy amounts of space lol, I both loved and hated that, because its loving hilarious, but also I find it SO hard to imagine. I'd love to see some kind of visualisation of it, because all I can see it as is like "Mont Saint-Michel but then with a domed roof over it" which is just so stupid, but so stupid it works? All the stuff about getting water from your poops on the last page had me doing an annoying stifled laugh while my wife was on a work call.
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Jun 4, 2021 13:53
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Bubblyblubber posted:I also like that, because it raises the question of how people move around quickly and efficiently in those ridiculously vast spaces. I think the answer is 'they don't'. Part of the aesthetic of the dune setting is that nothing is ever very urgent and events progress at a speed of generations. Nobody is ever in a hurry.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:54
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Suit yourself, I'll be over here imagining reverend mothers gliding around with Jetsons noises.
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Jun 4, 2021 16:12
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Maker hook ropes that just go down to a skateboard Naiboarding is not a crime
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Jun 4, 2021 16:14
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It is a looong storied history of Sci-fi writers not understanding the numbers they are using. They just pick what sounds good and run with it.
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Jun 4, 2021 16:34
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Alchenar posted:I think the answer is 'they don't'. Part of the aesthetic of the dune setting is that nothing is ever very urgent and events progress at a speed of generations. Nobody is ever in a hurry. Also they live way longer too, so you can afford to dilly-dally Johnny Aztec posted:It is a looong storied history of Sci-fi writers not understanding the numbers they are using. It's this, but also I think Frank was talking about how power structures exist to steal your productivity. Wasn't Muad'Dibs palace carved out of a mountain?
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Jun 4, 2021 16:44
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Frank thought he was so cool putting everything in the metric system but welp as a kid I couldn't visualize the scope of anything (and still can't really)
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Jun 4, 2021 17:20
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Reminds me of the Riverworld series, where Philip Jose Farmer originally had characters eyeballing distances in standard units, saying things like "those mountains look 10,000 feet high". Then in later editions he decided to include metric equivalents as well, but just straight up converted the units with exact precision, so they now say things like "those mountains look about 10,000 feet high, or 3,048 meters".
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Jun 4, 2021 17:28
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There's actually zero difference between good and bad futures. You wali. You absolute kulon
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Jun 4, 2021 17:49
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General Battuta posted:There's actually zero difference between good and bad futures. You wali. You absolute kulon another day volunteering at the museum fremen sietch. everyone keeps asking me if they can gently caress the deathstill. buddy, they wont even let me gently caress it
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Jun 4, 2021 17:55
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