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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:its not like prechristian beliefs ever went away, they just got less ritualized. it may be a nonchristian giant but by the middle ages it probably has some sort of christian reasoning behind it (replace thor with jesus or some poo poo) this still makes them christian, in the sense that according with formal doctrine isn't what christian means in this sense, it actually just means that people who were Christians believed in or told stories about the character etc for hundreds of years another symptom of a sick culture which is deluded into thinking words + authority = reality, not those pesky ways people actually behave
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May 30, 2021 19:45
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What evidence is there the giant is non-Christian? Maybe it's a picture of jesus?
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May 30, 2021 22:38
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Weka posted:What evidence is there the giant is non-Christian? really just that big giant dudes tend to be not christian since david killed the last giant and thus ended all stories about giants i dont think there is much evidence about who its supposed to be just that its from around the 10th c when things were pretty christianized but not that far off. it being non christian would throw us for a loop since its pretty near an old abby. the penis may or may not have been added sometime in the next 700 years
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May 30, 2021 22:51
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Weka posted:What evidence is there the giant is non-Christian? J-man is packin some heat.
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May 30, 2021 22:52
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Jesus can down the mountain hanging dong and just clubbing this poo poo out of every pharasee said “blessed are those who tear poo poo up”
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May 30, 2021 22:54
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:really just that big giant dudes tend to be not christian since david killed the last giant and thus ended all stories about giants not something i can prove, obviously, but i think historians tend to underestimate just how much of the old religions survive with the lower classes well past when any given area is officially christianized. and not necessarily in a "your old god is now a saint, feel free to pray to them, just call them saint <old god's name>" instead and nominally acknowledge the christian god" way. so when something like this comes up, it seems super shocking but really shouldn't be, given how little we understand of the lower classes from that time.
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May 30, 2021 23:23
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Weka posted:What evidence is there the giant is non-Christian?
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May 31, 2021 00:23
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the graffiti is 100% jesus, romans thought christians and jews worshipped a donkey god because the Tetragrammaton (yhwh) sounded like the sound a donkey made in latin edit: thought you guys were talking about the Alexmenos graffiti
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May 31, 2021 00:33
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Alexamenos graffito
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May 31, 2021 00:35
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and did your cock in ancient times throb over englands mountains green
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May 31, 2021 00:38
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PawParole posted:Alexamenos graffito It's so awesome. Alexamenos should be canonized as a saint.
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May 31, 2021 01:08
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this conversation is reminding me of the classic The Cheese and the Worm by Carlo Ginsburg which I recall was extraordinarily insightful on the topic but I can’t remember how or why or what
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May 31, 2021 05:29
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Inspector Hound posted:It's so awesome. Alexamenos should be canonized as a saint. oh wow, ok! Lots of respect for Alexamenos and nobodywith no respect for cynocephalic st. Christopher, like he don’t exist??? smdh E: Alexamenos should still be crucified, he has more credentials than most E2: canonized, not crucified twoday has issued a correction as of 06:45 on May 31, 2021 |
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May 31, 2021 05:44
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twoday posted:E2: canonized, not crucified what a huge clerical error
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May 31, 2021 21:09
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DarkEuphoria posted:what a huge clerical error whoops, someone's getting fired for this one!
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May 31, 2021 21:14
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:really just that big giant dudes tend to be not christian since david killed the last giant and thus ended all stories about giants There's nothing to compare the subject to for scale. It could be a large picture of a regular sized person. It's just a picture of a dude and his two clubs, absent other evidence it's pretty hard to tell what it represents. Maybe that's jesus with his cross based on a not entirely accurate translation of stauros or crucem, just after the soldiers have drawn lots for his clothes. Azathoth posted:not something i can prove, obviously, but i think historians tend to underestimate just how much of the old religions survive with the lower classes well past when any given area is officially christianized. and not necessarily in a "your old god is now a saint, feel free to pray to them, just call them saint <old god's name>" instead and nominally acknowledge the christian god" way. so when something like this comes up, it seems super shocking but really shouldn't be, given how little we understand of the lower classes from that time. Some monastic, Ælfric of Eynsham, working at Cerne around the turn of the millennium wrote a sermon called 'on false gods' about how people came to worship pagan gods, so that's some evidence pre-Christian ideas were still around.
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Jun 1, 2021 09:35
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Jun 3, 2021 20:30
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wow pulque sounds really labor intensive to make. 12 years before a plant produces sap, then it dies. would like to try some though e: holy smokes bacterial fermentation, that's very interesting e2: lmao they don't allow women or children into the room where they ferment it quote:Those in charge of the fermentation process guard their trade secrets, passing them on from father to son. Fermentation takes from seven to 14 days, and the process seems to be more art than science. A number of factors can affect fermenting pulque, such as temperature, humidity and the quality of the aguamiel.[14] indigi has issued a correction as of 21:45 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 21:36
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It seems like it wouldn't get much easier to make a lot, unlike something with a yearly harvest, but if you're just doing a moderate amount a plant which produces 5 litres of fermentable liquid in a hollow on top seems way easier than say malting barley. Agave is pretty low maintenance, atleast around here.
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Jun 4, 2021 10:10
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Azathoth posted:not something i can prove, obviously, but i think historians tend to underestimate just how much of the old religions survive with the lower classes well past when any given area is officially christianized. and not necessarily in a "your old god is now a saint, feel free to pray to them, just call them saint <old god's name>" instead and nominally acknowledge the christian god" way. so when something like this comes up, it seems super shocking but really shouldn't be, given how little we understand of the lower classes from that time.
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Jun 4, 2021 10:24
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The witch poison plot - Wherein Emperor Wu and his heir do an oopsy fucky Chonguo the failure - Wherein an old man is owned War of the happy goats Chill Emperor I -Wherein Huo Guang just wants an easy life as de facto ruler of China Chill Emperor: Origins -Wherein Good Old Bing saves the infant emperor from execution Chill Emperor II -Wherein Chill Emperor loves his wife and so does everyone else Chill Emperor III -Wherein there are deaths in the families Chill Emperor IV -Wherein the new generation of Huos are stupid failchildren Chill Emperor: Endgame 67BC According to the histories, which blame everything on this dang woman, Lady Xian (which roughly means The Lady You Can’t Ignore) had a thing for poisoning people. Supposedly she started out as a dancing girl or servant and snuck into Lord Huo’s bed disguised as his wife to seduce him (the history paints this as bad, but if this is true it wouldn’t be a particularly remarkable event, both men and women could be very proactive in seeking a partner). Xian then became Huo’s favourite and poisoned his primary wife to take her place. Rumour is she poisoned the Empress to get her daughter on the throne and with Lord Huo dead she assumes control of the powerful Huo family and orders her daughter Empress Chengjun to poison the crown prince to make way for some Huo kiddies. The empress Chengjun either agrees and wants her own children to take the throne or she can’t say no to her mother. Several attempts are made until one of them gets exposed by an unexpected food taster. The perpetrator is not found but it's clearly either the Huos or someone trying to stitch them up. The Chill Emperor subtly neuters the military power of the Huos in a clever way, the army is divided up between Huo Ju and the emperor’s pal Zhang Anshi. The emperor declares an era of peace and has both armies disbanded and their generals and soldiers rewarded, but he disbands Zhang’s army in the capital and makes him garrison commander, whereas he disbands the Huo army in the frontier so the troops cannot be quickly raised again coz they’re spending their bonuses on holiday or trying to get home. They are also attempting to poison the prime minister, Mr Wei, or at least he’s convinced they are. Mr Wei has seen the writing on the wall and changed to the emperor’s faction away from the Huos. The second-gen Huos pissed him off almost immediately by forcing him to apologise for a carriage collision and sending thugs round his house to try to beat him up. They send him a message saying they want to apologise and have him round for a big dinner, he takes this as an obvious poison plot due to the rumours about the empress’ death that are circulating and freaks out. Mr Wei, a very smart dude, collates a list of capital crimes committed by the Huo family and passes that on to the court. Each crime is enough to have the whole clan wiped out and the document is legally airtight, the Huos probably should have just let his carriage past. The emperor asks his pal Zhang Anshi what he thinks, Zhang Anshi replies “oh no i’m sick again i have to leave!” He asks his general Zeng but Zeng’s leg suddenly starts hurting really badly and he has to leave. The Huo family is still very powerful and the Chill Emperor did publicly promise to preserve the Huo family on Lord Huo’s deathbed, so he has to act slowly and carefully but that is what he’s great at, it's also what the Huo’s are total shite at. He releases an edict saying that “There have been a lot of storms and disasters lately so clearly something is up, and if anyone smart knows why please feel free to write and tell us what's wrong at court. I’ve abolished the (huo controlled) secretary system so i’ll read them now. Also btw i’m demoting loads of Huos” The Huos start getting pretty freaked out and go visit Good Old Bing, the improbably benevolent official who was witness to Lord Huo’s dying request to keep his family alive. They ask him if the emperor will actually move against them and break his promise and Old Bing assures them that the emperor is a good lad and wouldn’t do that, but just in case they should probably go ask Lady Xian if she keeps trying to poison the palace. The heads of the Huo clan hold a meeting and Xian admits yeah I’ve been doing lots of poisonings. Everyone present is like “oh, we’re hosed,”. The emperor isn’t moving against them yet and this test of patience is one the Huo’s fail almost immediately. The Huo’s come together again to decide that A) the emperor wants us dead B) we have to move against him first. The plan is mostly concocted by a guy called Zhang He who is an advisor to the Huo family, the idea is to get the empress and queen grandmother (both Huos) to get PM Wei and another key ally of the emperor fired, then swing General Anshi around to their side and abolish the emperor like Lord Huo had done previously. Unfortunately for them Mr Wei is far ahead of them and has had his own intelligence agency infiltrate their group. The scheme is exposed and Zhang He is blamed for all of it and 300 members of his clan are executed. In a classic Chill Emperor move the Huo’s are very carefully not implicated in this plot, he actually releases an edict saying “im very glad the Huo family didn’t go along with the seditious plot they were involved in, it proves they’ve kept my trust Lord Huo earned” as a pretty clear backhanded signal that these guys are rebels and also that him keeping his promise is contingent on the trust he had for the late Huo and it's not his fault if the family fucks it up. He “rewards” the Huo family by promoting a bunch of Lord Huo’s distant relatives from a completely different clan who hate them, further diluting their power at court. The Huo’s wait for the hammer blow but the Chill Emperor does his patient friendly routine while releasing ever more bitchy backhanded edicts. One says that “lots of people have been calling the Huo’s traitors lately. Now we have not investigated the truth of that but I’m sure it's not true. Lord Huo would never be a traitor so his kids wouldn't be either”. This is obviously directly associating the Huo clan with being traitors, but by referring to Lord Huo in a positive light these edicts are obviously setting up an “these no good descendents are the bad guys for forcing me to break my promise!” The Huo descendents don’t have the cool to withstand this so try the plan again, they have some blackmail that Mr Wei didn’t use the appropriate amount of lambs while sacrificing to the ancestors and they bring forward an embezzlement suit against him in court. They will force Mr Wei to come to terms with them over drinks and poison him. The guy who brings the suit against them is apparently a competent administrator and honest and upstanding chap who is known to be a little stupid but good. Wei’s secret agency investigates him and he is imprisoned and tortured until he “confesses” that he is part of the Huo plot and they intend to move against the emperor and put Huo Yu on the throne. It's entirely possible this was just a legit suit against Mr Wei that is spun up into a reason to go after the Huo’s now the time is right, but either way the Chill Emperor decides that time has come for the Huo clan. He genuinely believes that they killed the love of his life, and he never forgot that. Either that or he is an absolutely ruthless motherfucker and has been framing and provoking the family since Huo Guang died. Martial law is declared in the capital city and Anshi’s garrison is raised, but instead of sending him the emperor tests the loyalty of general Zeng by sending him after the main plotters: late Lord Huo’s nephews Huo Yun and Huo Shan, his son Huo Yu and wife Lady Xian. On his way to kill the family, General Zeng runs into benevolent old Bing who begs him to reconsider the Emperor’s orders. To break his promise would be a sin and the Emperor promised them mercy. General Zeng reassures Bing that he has been told to treat them mercifully and departs. When they surround Huo Yun’s house they do give him the standard mercy which is to send someone in to very politely give you the option of killing yourself. Both Yun and Shan are offered this mercy and accept it, killing themselves in their homes when they are surrounded by soldiers. When Zeng goes to surround Lady Xian and her son Huo Yu they are nowhere to be found. Zeng starts to panic, he knows the emperor is already thinking ahead to a court without Huos and this is a test of his loyalty and now he’s lost the main woman herself! He will be purged or executed for this. Xian’s household has obviously been preparing for this for a while and she and her son Yu are making their escape down a tunnel dug underneath the property. Unfortunate for them, though fortunate for Zeng, the exit of the tunnel has been discovered. It's not clear whether it's by luck or a Huo or servant trading the info for leniency but when they reach the end of the tunnel there are soldiers waiting for them. Across the capital the giant Huo clan is rounded up and exterminated. The terror and executions of the War Emperor’s reign has returned to the court. Xian’s son Yu is taken to the public square and subjected to the Waist Chop, an intentionally cruel prolonged execution where he is strapped to a wooden bench and cut in half at the waist. As the sole survivor the empress is banished to live in solitude for the rest of her life before dying “of depression” 11 lonely years later. I haven’t found how Xian was killed, if she was lucky she was decapitated or strangled. Supposedly old Bing weeps at court before the emperor, Old Bing raised the emperor in his childhood and was responsible for finding him a home. He remembers the bright little lonely boy and is stunned at how the young man could be so cruel and reminds him of his promise to Huo Guang to preserve his family. “Don’t cry, old Bing,” sez the chill emperor, and gestures to himself, “I have kept his son in law alive and well,”
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Jun 4, 2021 12:31
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standing ovation
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Jun 4, 2021 14:14
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A magnificent post.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:42
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holy crap a waist chop sounds absolutely brutal
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Jun 4, 2021 14:47
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Communist Thoughts posted:[url=forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3896504&userid=130261#post508565720] Lmfao. This is like the greatest shaggy dog story for Bing. I appreciated all these posts, it's a great story.
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Jun 4, 2021 14:52
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chinese history is goddamn raw
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Jun 4, 2021 15:11
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Jel Shaker posted:holy crap a waist chop sounds absolutely brutal There's frequently a distinction between "executed" and "ordered to commit suicide," and this feels slightly silly because you're dead either way right? But the big difference is that the execution methods were generally designed to be ostentatiously loving awful, like the waist chop or slow slicing.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:35
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you can promise all you like and most people take quite a bit to get to that point, but there is an amount of loving around that will find anything out.
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Jun 4, 2021 15:50
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https://twitter.com/azforeman/status/1400991224136404993 This stuff is cool. Since written English since the late 16th century is so much like modern English it's easy not to think about how it would have sounded very different from now. Also an odd thing to do, almost like he knew people would be wondering about this centuries later lol.
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Jun 5, 2021 19:52
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if pronunciations change over time how do we know [e:] is pronounced the same in 1600 vs today? also wtf is [e:]
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Jun 5, 2021 19:56
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indigi posted:if pronunciations change over time how do we know [e:] is pronounced the same in 1600 vs today? also wtf is [e:] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_front_unrounded_vowel Don't know how the guy who made the tweet interpreted whatever Newton was writing but it might be by analogy, you can reconstruct approximately the dialects people around Newton were speaking to cross check with whatever he wrote about the way he pronounced "meat". Or maybe he was more precise than that, he was a genius after all.
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Jun 5, 2021 20:00
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indigi posted:if pronunciations change over time how do we know [e:] is pronounced the same in 1600 vs today? also wtf is [e:] poetry helps a lot, since if we know what rhymes, we can narrow down the range of pronunciations for what something must be, and that all kinds fits together like a jigsaw puzzle where things must have sounded a certain way
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Jun 5, 2021 20:08
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I know I should just learn it instead of complaining but it has always bugged me that the phonetic spelling stuff is completely unreadable
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Jun 5, 2021 20:12
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Communist Thoughts posted:I know I should just learn it instead of complaining but it has always bugged me that the phonetic spelling stuff is completely unreadable just loving spell it out. don’t give me [e:] write “eeee”
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Jun 5, 2021 20:16
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Happens that in English the letter e is pronounced a certain way but when it represents a vowel in a word it almost never sounds like that, so I'm glad they just ignore the anglophones to make the phonetic alphabet.
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Jun 5, 2021 20:29
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Communist Thoughts posted:I know I should just learn it instead of complaining but it has always bugged me that the phonetic spelling stuff is completely unreadable no man, you're right, they hosed up by putting all those shapes into the alphabet they should have just spelled it out with letters, the letters we know gently caress learning that poo poo
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Jun 5, 2021 20:33
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“peking” and “bejing” are both transliterations of the same word, separated by a what few hundred years of linguistic drift. we don’t know that eeeee will be pronounced like we do a hundred years from now, I think that’s the justification? similarly “ye olde” is a modern misunderstanding, it’s a bad transliteration of a letter we no longer use. it was always intended to read like “the old”
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Jun 5, 2021 20:48
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CoolCab posted:we don’t know that eeeee will be pronounced like we do a hundred years from now, I think that’s the justification? I understand but wouldn’t that apply to [e:] as well? I’m just saying write the phonetics out in contemporary pronunciations in addition to/rather than symbols for linguistics nerds
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Jun 5, 2021 20:55
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Grevling posted:Happens that in English the letter e is pronounced a certain way but when it represents a vowel in a word it almost never sounds like that, so I'm glad they just ignore the anglophones to make the phonetic alphabet. taking english seriously as a language that has rules is a mistake; english doesn't actually follow those rules lol
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Jun 5, 2021 22:41
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indigi posted:I understand but wouldn’t that apply to [e:] as well? I’m just saying write the phonetics out in contemporary pronunciations in addition to/rather than symbols for linguistics nerds
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Jun 5, 2021 23:23
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