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Warbadger posted:...and 40% lower than the world bank definition of poverty in low/middle income countries. Which seems like a pretty big difference. Yeah imagine if the imperial powers didn't plunder the world of its labor and riches.
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Jun 5, 2021 02:23
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adoration for none posted:It's surprising that the Hong Kong protests were so sophisticated, long-lasting, and had so much in terms of international support to draw on, and they accomplished nothing. Not really, it's the failed revolts of soviet republics all over again. The protests had no methods of actually reaching their goals. Just to boil it down: 1. Institutional change - Hong Kongs parliamentary system was decisively undemocratic and bank-rolled by the CCP, dead end. 2. Violent change - Hong Kong is a tiny tiny place with a massive military ready to roll over the border on a moments notice, an alternative no one wanted to explore. 3. International pressure - Everyone is afraid of actually antagonizing China, dead end.
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Jun 5, 2021 08:29
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Yeah imagine if the imperial powers didn't plunder the world of its labor and riches. China, famously not an imperial power past or present
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Jun 5, 2021 09:16
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:Yeah imagine if the imperial powers didn't plunder the world of its labor and riches. Poor plucky China, at the mercy of the great powers.
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Jun 5, 2021 18:06
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
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Jun 5, 2021 18:17
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Ah yes, everyone knows China's history started with the Opium wars. Nothing happened before that or after the end of WW2. It is just that period in time.
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Jun 5, 2021 18:39
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
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Jun 5, 2021 18:39
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Terminal autist posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion Can a rebellion actually be anti-imperialist if conducted in defense of an empire? There was plenty of justification for citizens kicking out the foreign empires, of course, it just seems odd to frame it as anti-imperialist when the goal was to preserve the integrity of their own regional hegemonic empire. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 20:10
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no hay camino posted:It's surprising that the Hong Kong protests were so sophisticated, long-lasting, and had so much in terms of international support to draw on, and they accomplished nothing. Covid killed the motion dude. As the as the virus went head forward into Western countries domestic issues took precedent over international issues like Hong kong, especially with the fact that America and Europe had new ammunition in the form of China in quote hiding their numbers unquote. Potentially we will see renewed support for the movement however China's had over a year to completely clamp down and add massive amounts of security forces most likely under the guise of medical assistance. Hong Kong is now under the rule of the PRC regardless of what the West says. The time for any action is now over.
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Jun 5, 2021 20:33
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Warbadger posted:Can a rebellion actually be anti-imperialist if conducted in defense of an empire? There was plenty of justification for citizens kicking out the foreign empires, of course, it just seems odd to frame it as anti-imperialist when the goal was to preserve the integrity of their own regional hegemonic empire. It's especially strange when you consider that the Qing were ethnically Manchu and not Han. They were foreigners ruling over and abusing Han people too. Before Mao, China technically hadn't been governed by Han people since the Ming dynasty. On the other hand, the Opium Wars were clearly exploitation of Chinese people, and Western powers didn't have the well-being of Chinese people in mind ever. E: Ming, not Song America Inc. fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 23:27
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Warbadger posted:...and 40% lower than the world bank definition of poverty in low/middle income countries. Which seems like a pretty big difference. Yes, it's probably worth pointing out that China's official definition of "middle-class" starts below the US definition of the poverty line, which makes the poverty comparisons a bit off
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Jun 5, 2021 23:49
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no hay camino posted:Before Mao, China technically hadn't been governed by Han people since the Ming dynasty. You mean before Sun Yat-sen, right? Because the Republic of China leaders were all Han.
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Jun 5, 2021 23:51
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Were there no minorities in the revolutionary republican government or in the prc afterwards? No one were Hakka, Hui, etc? Stalin and Beria and others were minorities in the USSR.
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Jun 6, 2021 01:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:Were there no minorities in the revolutionary republican government or in the prc afterwards? No one were Hakka, Hui, etc? Stalin and Beria and others were minorities in the USSR. Hey now there's *some* ethnic minorities in the People's Congress. Granted they're obligated to vote however the CCP tells them to, and they're required to wear traditional ethnic garb at every session for photo ops. The Han politicians wear western suits of course, because they're modern people Perhaps America could learn a thing or two on how to solve a lack of representation in the government, just set aside one seat in congress to represent all native Americans, and require the poor sap to wear a traditional headdress to work as he rubber-stamps whatever the president wants. Racism solved!
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Jun 6, 2021 02:22
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Warbadger posted:Can a rebellion actually be anti-imperialist if conducted in defense of an empire? There was plenty of justification for citizens kicking out the foreign empires, of course, it just seems odd to frame it as anti-imperialist when the goal was to preserve the integrity of their own regional hegemonic empire. yes.
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Jun 6, 2021 02:23
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fart simpson posted:yes. In what way?
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Jun 6, 2021 02:48
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je1 healthcare posted:Hey now there's *some* ethnic minorities in the People's Congress. Granted they're obligated to vote however the CCP tells them to, and they're required to wear traditional ethnic garb at every session for photo ops. The Han politicians wear western suits of course, because they're modern people But I mean specifically leaders in prominent positions during both revolutionary and early government periods. Even the USSR shifted away from minority representation in the Supreme Soviet (rigging it so a majority of seats were held by ethnic Russians and prominent ministries only by well trusted minorities) in the 50's and onwards. I assume China either in Sun Yat Sen's movement or in the civil war or the early PRC presumably had minorities in prominent positions even if they were sidelined later. I'd be surprised if they were literally all Han. Like at least one of Chiang Kai Shek's generals was Jurchen.
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Jun 6, 2021 03:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:Were there no minorities in the revolutionary republican government or in the prc afterwards? No one were Hakka, Hui, etc? Stalin and Beria and others were minorities in the USSR. Sure there were. Why do you ask? e: ah, right, by "leaders" I meant the actual presidents.
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Jun 6, 2021 03:39
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Hakkas were massively important in both the Nationalist and Communist revolutions. On the Communist side some of the prominent leaders included Zhu De and Hu Yaobang. Even Deng Xiaoping probably had Hakka ancestry.
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Jun 6, 2021 04:39
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Just a reminder that literally nobody said there weren't non-Han people in senior positions after 1949/1912.
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Jun 6, 2021 04:42
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I mean, I understand you clarified your position to not mean "the leadership" (i.e senior military, economic, and political posts) and more specifically "people who were either Paramount Leader or held the office or Party General Secretary"; but I did technically ask if any were. As outside the famous examples in the USSR I literally couldn't figure out via google who were Hakka/Hui/Tibetan/etc in the CPC/PLA circa 1949.
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Jun 6, 2021 04:51
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Munin posted:The Chinese government did feel compelled to use slightly more subtle means to quash the dissent in Hong Kong as opposed to straight up sending in the tanks. I personally don't feel sending in the tanks was ever seriously on the table, but maybe I'm wrong. A little show and dance at the border to scare and posture, and reinforcing the PLA within HK under various guises was about all the military action I think would ever have happened. Providing the legal infrastructure with the NSL allowed the police to essentially go "gloves off" and stop playing it (relatively) safe. (There were plenty of police transgressions and abuses of power, don't get me wrong, but it is undeniable that they were pulling their punches until they figured out what they could do.) While there was a depth of support, it almost certainly was one-sided in terms of the proportion of power. It didn't take long for the information wars to polarize the boomers (all that forwarded stuff was expertly crafted to instill almost a primal fear of losing the wealth and power the boomers had accumulated) from the millennials and younger. The 'depth' here was largely unable to actually *do* anything. I'm not even sure what thorn the HK protest movement can even be. Barely a splinter, at least within HK borders. The NSL has done its job and scared most into submission, not to mention the fact that Carrie Lam was probably thanking the heavens that Covid came along and that HK people did, by and large, set a great example of how to behave during a pandemic. Once Covid-19 became capital-S serious, HKers on the yellow side did their civic duty and did it very well, at the expense of whatever political ambitions they might have had. Now comes the accelerated educational changes which will aim to address part of the underlying issue. Even the most fervent of the protestors are realizing that what they believe in will be stamped out within a generation. (Of course the housing crisis and economic inequality is going to continue to be an emotional and political flashpoint for some time.) Shrimp or Shrimps fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 06:21
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Warbadger posted:In what way? If the Chinese invaded Hawaii and the US fought back, would the US be justified even though Hawaii was gained by imperial conquest and some locals would argue the US has no justification to be there? Was the US justified in liberating the Phillipines from the brutal rule of the Japanese even though technically the US brutally conquered the place themselves from another imperial power (Spain)? MacArthur was welcomed back by the Filipino people by my understanding. E: You could say Ataturk was anti-imperialist in stopping the European powers from carving up Turkey, although he then turned a blind eye to the Greeks, Armenians, and Kurds. The European division of the Ottoman Empire was definitely not a good thing in retrospect. Or maybe Haile Selassie was justified in fighting back the Italians, although Ethiopia was technically an empire governing over various ethnicities of people. Would it have been better if Moctezuma executed Cortés and all the rest of them even though the Aztecs were themselves a brutal subjugator of various tribes, and Cortes was mainly successful by recruiting these tribes to fight for him? Atahualpa executed Pizarro etc. It comes down to whether the invading imperialists are actually going to help the people there with their own self-determination, and that is virtually never the case ever - usually the invaders are going to make things even worse because they don't know nor care about the needs of the people there at all - so sometimes it's better to go with the devil you know. Like really when the Europeans were conquering the world they were usually up against other empires - nation states are a modern European invention -, so fighting back against the Europeans was an anti-imperialist action done in service of protecting a native empire. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 10:45
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no hay camino posted:If the Chinese invaded Hawaii and the US fought back, would the US be justified even though Hawaii was gained by imperial conquest and some locals would argue the US has no justification to be there? Seems like you're conflating anti-imperialism with justified or locally beneficial wars. Empires going to war with each other can definitely be a good thing for (some of) those living in said empires, but it doesn't make it anti-imperialism unless you strip out all meaning for the phrase because they are absolutely in support of imperialism and everything that entails. Cortes was a decent example of this - he rode a tide of resentment and rebellion among the locals to victory and those doing the heavy lifting in that war were fighting to rid themselves of a pretty loving horrible empire. I would say in that example the only anti-imperialists would have been those fighting with Cortes to free themselves and their own homes/people from an empire without the foreknowledge that this would eventually lead to them being gobbled up by yet another empire. Cortes and his band were not anti-imperialists, nor was Moctezuma and his imperial loyalists. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 14:04
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/xis-change-of-heart-is-too-late-to-stop-chinas-collision-with-the-west Strikes me as far too little, way too late.
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Jun 6, 2021 16:25
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Promethium posted:Hakkas were massively important in both the Nationalist and Communist revolutions. On the Communist side some of the prominent leaders included Zhu De and Hu Yaobang. Even Deng Xiaoping probably had Hakka ancestry. 
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Jun 6, 2021 16:49
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If America wants to lose a fifth war in Asia then that's their prerogative, not Xi's. History has shown that appeasement doesn't work with the American empire.
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Jun 6, 2021 16:55
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Daduzi posted:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/xis-change-of-heart-is-too-late-to-stop-chinas-collision-with-the-west I mean, it's just an opinion article.
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Jun 6, 2021 17:48
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The imperial claims of the various Chinese dynasties were infinitely more justifiable than British, French, or Dutch claims to anything in the Pacific, and also infinitely more justifiable than the USA's claims to any piece of North America. The USA owns California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas because of a war of conquest to expand a slaver empire. For gently caress's sake lol My point is that comparing China to middle-income or rich powers in Europe or to Japan or South Korea or similar is to compare them to early modern or modern imperial powers or client states who are actively undermining and exploiting the third world, which is why they are so much "wealthier" than the developing world. China is the exception in the developing world. Countries that allowed themselves to be hosed over by the USA and the other imperial powers remain enslaved to the imperial powers. China's communist development has lead them to become a global power themselves, and someday they could be the preeminent power in the world.
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Jun 6, 2021 18:43
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:The imperial claims of the various Chinese dynasties were infinitely more justifiable than British, French, or Dutch claims to anything in the Pacific, and also infinitely more justifiable than the USA's claims to any piece of North America. You heard it here first, folks, some imperial conquests are more justifiable than others. Also, I'd like to announce that I Am The Czar of All The Russias, and furthermore E: China's "Communist development" twice managed to so severely gently caress up the entire country that it took decades just to attempt to rectify, and the consequences of the crazoid authoritarian paranoia that it bred are still being felt today. Like, it's not "development" to take 15 years to properly start license production of an airplane, when you've been given the whole stack of documentation for free. You have to actively try to gently caress it up that badly. And the CCP did. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 19:11
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How long does the US southwest have to be owned by the US before it becomes ok to do a genocide on the insufficiently american?
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Jun 6, 2021 19:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:How long does the US southwest have to be owned by the US before it becomes ok to do a genocide on the insufficiently american? It took the US approximately 0 minutes to do it.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:43
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It seems pretty clear that if you want to remain mired in poverty and foreign domination, do what the IMF and World Bank and other USA ops want you to do.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:49
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:The imperial claims of the various Chinese dynasties were infinitely more justifiable than British, French, or Dutch claims to anything in the Pacific, and also infinitely more justifiable than the USA's claims to any piece of North America. China was a slaver empire throughout most of its history and remained so until slavery was finally outlawed in 1909. It also acquired its territories in wars of conquest and has a history of both genocide and ethnic cleansing. The actual practice of slavery actually only vanished after WWII and current day China is employing forced labor on a minority group from a recently invaded territory as part of an ongoing genocide.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:11
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I can't even tell what position people are taking in this thread. PRC has been imperialist since at least 1950 when it invaded Tibet. You don't have to go back to the Qing. PRC has treated its own population brutally to varying degrees throughout its history. It's been steadily grinding away its minorities for decades regardless of any token leadership positions or purported ideology of equality. Nowadays the PRC is pounding the drums of Han ethno-nationalism like it's going out of style. No one made PRC do any of that poo poo. The US has a terrible history of imperialism and genocide, too, and continues to be lovely in countless ways. I don't see how it makes the PRC's actions any more defensible. Criticizing one doesn't necessitate defending the other.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:20
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Yeah no matter how much you spin the bottle, all you're doing is shouting empire in different tonalities. Empires are called as such because they all draw from a very limited and predictable toolbox in forming and maintaining their empires. That China was for a period of history subjugated by other empires does not make it any less of an empire in the past or today.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:35
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Smeef posted:I can't even tell what position people are taking in this thread. You're mostly right but I'll quibble that Tibet wasn't a recognized independent country in 1950; it's like saying Russia invaded the Caucasus or Siberia in the Russian Civil War.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:56
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Daduzi posted:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/xis-change-of-heart-is-too-late-to-stop-chinas-collision-with-the-west gently caress off with that headline. No one should talk as if world war 3, or whatever, is inevitable. It's the kind of thinking and attitude that hosed everything up repeatedly in the past.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:58
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Raenir Salazar posted:You're mostly right but I'll quibble that Tibet wasn't a recognized independent country in 1950; it's like saying Russia invaded the Caucasus or Siberia in the Russian Civil War. I don't know enough about the Caucasus or Siberia to weigh the comparison, but Tibet was de facto independent for decades prior to 1950 and was an imperial subject of the Qing prior to that. If recognized independence (UN membership?) is a necessary criterion for imperialism, then we'd end up discounting a helluva lot of imperial actions. Same if inherited imperial territories were discounted.
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Jun 6, 2021 21:11
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:It took the US approximately 0 minutes to do it. Correct, hence why I asked how many years of history and being near each other before it becomes ok to do imperialism Also tibetans are a distinct ethnic group with a shared history and language. Caucasus and Siberia are geographic areas. You can’t really compare them like that. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 21:31
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